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History question re: 80s/90s UM results

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Memnon said:
He won 2 National titles & is the 2nd best Coach in school history.
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With JJ’s recruits. He still got gems, but left glaring holes, especially at OLine. His one back offense lacked versatility compared to Howard, JJ’s, Butches and Coker’s offenses, before Coker than left gaping holes in recruiting himself.
 
Look at it from the other way, too.

We had to get a lot of help to win it in 83.

Yea, we beat the “best team ever” and deserved the natty.

But that game was #1 vs #5.

If #2 wins, they win the natty, but they lost.
#3 was Auburn, and they did win the Sugar Bowl, but it was a close, low-scoring game. If they blow out Michigan, they might win it.
#4 Illinois lost to an unranked team in the Rose Bowl.

If Osborne kicks the XP to tie the game, they win the natty.

So sometimes you have the undisputed best team and don’t win (1986). And sometimes you probably don’t, but do win.

It’s why sports are so beautiful. Variables are always present.
 
RF-4CCane said:
With JJ’s recruits. He still got gems, but left glaring holes, especially at OLine. His one back offense lacked versatility compared to Howard, JJ’s, Butches and Coker’s offenses, before Coker than left gaping holes in recruiting himself.
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Erickson was a great coach. On the field, his weakness was recruiting. Off the field, alcohol and hiding drug tests. The school did him no favor with the Pell Grant fraud as well.

He was given the keys to a brand new Ferrari in 1989 and by the time he was done after the '94 season, he gave a 15 year old Toyota Corolla with an oil leak to Butch.
 
RF-4CCane said:
With JJ’s recruits. He still got gems, but left glaring holes, especially at OLine. His one back offense lacked versatility compared to Howard, JJ’s, Butches and Coker’s offenses, before Coker than left gaping holes in recruiting himself.
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What did Butch do with Butch's recruits ever in his entire career anywhere?
 
CaneinBroward said:
Erickson was a great coach. On the field, his weakness was recruiting. Off the field, alcohol and hiding drug tests. The school did him no favor with the Pell Grant fraud as well.

He was given the keys to a brand new Ferrari in 1989 and by the time he was done after the '94 season, he gave a 15 year old Toyota Corolla with an oil leak to Butch.
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Butch had 6 years to show what he was made of...

He had ONE double digit winning season in that timespan.

In fact, he only had ONE in his entire career.

I guess it was also Dennis's fault he didn't win jacksh*t in UNC either...
 
Memnon said:
Butch had 6 years to show what he was made of...

He had ONE double digit winning season in that timespan.

In fact, he only had ONE in his entire career.

I guess it was also Dennis's fault he didn't win jacksh*t in UNC either...
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Butch was the opposite of Erickson in most ways. Terrible game day coach, but great recruiter. Also, the exact opposite in that he came in getting the 15 year old Toyota Corolla with an oil leak and handed off a brand new Ferrari to Coker (arguably the best assembly of talent in history). Unfortunately, Coker totaled the car within 2 years and the Canes have been struggling ever since.

Like Dennis, Butch had issues keeping control of his program at UNC as shown by his own problems with the NCAA during his time at UNC. Mixed with not being a good game day coach, yeah, he didn't win jack**** at UNC.
 
A lot of blaming Gino Toretta for not winning the 92 title going on here. Yes, he was limited physically. But throwing it up for 50/50 balls in 1 on 1 situations is still common for quarterbacks today. Teams would send the house and Gino would get decked but he knew if he could just get the ball to his guy with single coverage, there’s a good chance he’d come down with it for a big gain. The biggest difference between the 91 and 92 teams was offensive line play. They couldn’t block for **** in 92 and the running game completely vanished. Teams with really good defensive lines ate us alive. The warning sign was Arizona completely shutting us down earlier in the season and Alabama just mauling us up front in the Sugar Bowl. That team only averaged 3.5 ypc rushing for the season and Donnell Bennet was the leading rusher with only around 400 yards.
 
I’m confused.

“Why didn’t we win more natties?”

Goes on to explain that we lost games to the eventual champs and/or our bowl games.

Doesn’t that answer the question?
 
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Memnon said:
What did Butch do with Butch's recruits ever in his entire career anywhere?
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Where did I say Butch was a great game day coach? He was a fantastic evaluator. Dennis was a better game day coach, but not a good recruiter.

You can’t really say Butch had 6 years. He inherited a team full of holes and one of the worst probations ever handed down by the NCAA that kept him from filling those holes in the first few years.
He left Coker with the greatest roster in history.
 
DTP said:
A lot of blaming Gino Toretta for not winning the 92 title going on here. Yes, he was limited physically. But throwing it up for 50/50 balls in 1 on 1 situations is still common for quarterbacks today. Teams would send the house and Gino would get decked but he knew if he could just get the ball to his guy with single coverage, there’s a good chance he’d come down with it for a big gain. The biggest difference between the 91 and 92 teams was offensive line play. They couldn’t block for **** in 92 and the running game completely vanished. Teams with really good defensive lines ate us alive. The warning sign was Arizona completely shutting us down earlier in the season and Alabama just mauling us up front in the Sugar Bowl. That team only averaged 3.5 ypc rushing for the season and Donnell Bennet was the leading rusher with only around 400 yards.
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It’s true, we couldn’t run in 92. But those weren’t 50/50 balls in the Sugar Bowl, Olson and Torretta were confused by the coverage scheme and never adjusted.
 
BoludoCane21 said:
mainly for Gen Xers (or those who were old enough to understand the context around the program in the 80s):

How is it that the program doesn't have more National Titles? I've gone back and seen most of the marquee games (and bowl games) of the 80s in full, but am missing context as to how more Nattys weren't racked up...

You could argue - not even counting the BCS debacle in 2000 and the bull**** with Taint in 02- that the program "should" have 3-4 more Titles.

Really would appreciate some color and a history lesson as my Canes memories start from '99 and onward...


1985: lose first game to Gaytors, run the table (including beating OU and curb-stomping ND), lose Sugar Bowl to Tenneessee. OU - who we beat - beats #1 Pedo State in Orange Bowl
- was Tennessee really a better team than us?
- how come Okie got the nod for the OB instead of us?

1986: run the table, lose the Fiesta Bowl to Pedo State

1987: Champs (unbeaten)

1988: only loss 30-31 in South Bend to the little irish people (they go on to win the natty)
- how did Fiesta Bowl draw #1 ND and #3 West Virginia instead of putting Miami there?

1989: Champs

1990: 2 losses at BYU (to open season), at ND
- were those 2 teams actually better than the Canes or did Miami shoot itself in the foot?
- we finished the season #3 FWIW

1991: Champs (unbeaten)

1992: run the table, lose Sugar Bowl to Alabama (Bama claims the natty)
- was that Bama team really better or did we **** the bed?

1994: one loss to UDub, lose OB to unbeaten Nebraska (champs)
- I know '95 Nebraska is often mentioned , but was their '94 team
- had the Canes won, would we have claimed natty? Pedo St was also unbeaten this season
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1985 - Oklahoma was an AUTOMATIC to the Orange Bowl, as the Orange Bowl had a tie-in with the Big 8. There was only one "at-large" spot, and undefeated Pedo State got it. It was not until THE NEXT YEAR when Independents Miami and Pedo State were available that you got the first completely voluntary, regardless of conference tie-ins, "true #1 vs. #2 game" in the Fiesta Bowl. Prior to that, you just had to get lucky that either the #1 or #2 team was tied to a particular bowl AND the other 1/2 team was available. As for whether Tennessee was the better team, they certainly were after the first quarter. For one thing, Tennessee's rushing attack destroyed ours, they had 211 yards and we had 22. And perhaps more tellingly, Vinnie had FOUR interceptions, which should go a long way to disproving the "Vinnie threw the Fiesta Bowl" crowd. At that time, when teams had a month to prepare for Vinnie, they did quite well.

1986 - see what I just wrote about Vinnie, except this time it was noted-pedophile Jerry Sandusky who was leading the opposing defensive plan. We were about to score the winning TD and Vinnie was sacked. And then 2 plays later threw his 5th pick.

1988 - I've posted MANY times about the Cleveland Gary non-fumble. As for the Fiesta Bowl, I'm not sure why this is so complicated, both ND and WVU were undefeated. They were. Regardless of the polls. And "#2 Miami" had already LOST to Notre Dame, so what happens if Miami wins? Rubber match? And what happens if Miami beats ND and WVU is STILL undefeated?

1990 - What do you want to say? Two road games, two single-digit losses to ranked teams. The loss at BYU was the first game of the year, too. It would be easy to say "but the defense", the reality is that these were the two lowest scoring games of the entire year, we put up 21 against BYU and 20 against Notre Dame. Our next-lowest-scoring we put up 30 (also on the road) and with 30 points we beat BYU and Notre Dame. **** happens.

1992 - Alabama team was good. Miami was a bit banged-up (particularly Lamar Thomas). But if you want to detect a theme here, when an opposing team has a month to prepare for Miami...AND they run the ball well (267 rushing yards to our 48)...AND they win the turnover battle (Torretta had 3 interceptions, 1 was a pick-six)...then the other team will most likely beat Miami. It's not complicated.

1994 - This Orange Bowl game was a game we lost in the 4th quarter. Up by 8, lost by 7. So after The Streak, we lost twice in the Orange Bowl that season. And even if we beat Nebraska, Pedo State was undefeated and playing from the #2 position. I highly doubt we jump undefeated Pedo State. We lost to Washington AT HOME BY EIGHTEEN. Not sure how you spin that one away over an undefeated team that is a power conference champion.
 
AtlAtty said:
1988-We were screwed over so many ways, but the great ***** job was the ND game. Cleveland Gary was either down by contact at the 1 yard line, or he scored because he reached out and the ground can’t cause the fumble. I don’t recall why we didn’t get another shot at the title, but I believe ND and WVU were undefeated and back then, if there were 2 undefeated teams, they were playing in the national championship/bowl game.
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Somewhere on one of my old computers, I have a download of an article from the Sun-Sentinel that explains this.

Back then, when there were big games such as Miami-ND, they would use "split-squads" of referees, half from one pool of refs, half from another.

So on 4th and 7 from the 11, the split crew misunderstood down-and-distance and thought it was 4th AND GOAL. Therefore, they gave the ball to Notre Dame "where Cleveland Gary's knee was down" inside the 1, and NOT "where Stonebreaker recovered the non-fumble" which was outside the 2.

This is why you see Jimmy Johnson (on the sideline) making the FIRST DOWN motion with his arm. Not the "TD" signal. And certainly not patting the ground with the "ball is down, ground can't cause a fumble" signal.

One of the refs admitted the 4th-and-goal mistake in the Sun-Sentinel article.

The NCAA outlawed "split-squads" at the end of the 1988 season.
 
Memnon said:
Butch had 6 years to show what he was made of...

He had ONE double digit winning season in that timespan.

In fact, he only had ONE in his entire career.

I guess it was also Dennis's fault he didn't win jacksh*t in UNC either...
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Nope. Not gonna let this bullcrap stand.

1995 - inherited a team in disarray, taking a bowl ban. We lost 3 of our first 4 games, and then won all the rest. We finished TIED for Big East champs with 6-1 conference record. Back when we played 11 games. Back when there was no conference championship game. If Miami had played a 12th game and/or won the Big East championship game and/or played/won our bowl game, we could have had 10 or 11 wins. Instead, we were 8-3.

1996 - AGAIN finished TIED for Big East champs with 6-1 conference record. Again, with a 12th game and/or Big East championship game, we win 10 or 11 games. Instead, we were 9-3.

1998 - finished TIED for second in the Big East with a 5-2 conference record. Obviously, if we played Syracuse on the road the way we played UCLA at home a week later, we would have won the Big Easat outright. Again, with a 12th game and/or Big East championship game, we win 10 or 11 games. Instead, we were 9-3.

1999 - finished second in the Big East with a 6-1 conference record. I won't complain about a 12th game this year, we actually were the only team in the Big East to play 12 regular season games due to playing Ohio Taint in a Kickoff Classic game. But with a Big East championship game, we get a chance to win 10 games. Instead, we were 9-4.

So, yeah, it's pretty disingenuous to set "10 games" as a benchmark for Butch when those were seasons when we only played 11 regular season games, had NO Big East Championship Game, and took a self-bowl-ban in one of those years. In 3 of those 4 years, we won 9 games. In those 4 years, we lost a total of 5 conference games. We were **** good under Butch, considering the probation and scholarship losses. Butch did an amazing job of holding those teams together, with only one BAD season (1997) to show for it. We finished in first or second of our conference every other year.

Not bad.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
Somewhere on one of my old computers, I have a download of an article from the Sun-Sentinel that explains this.

Back then, when there were big games such as Miami-ND, they would use "split-squads" of referees, half from one pool of refs, half from another.

So on 4th and 7 from the 11, the split crew misunderstood down-and-distance and thought it was 4th AND GOAL. Therefore, they gave the ball to Notre Dame "where Cleveland Gary's knee was down" inside the 1, and NOT "where Stonebreaker recovered the non-fumble" which was outside the 2.

This is why you see Jimmy Johnson (on the sideline) making the FIRST DOWN motion with his arm. Not the "TD" signal. And certainly not patting the ground with the "ball is down, ground can't cause a fumble" signal.

One of the refs admitted the 4th-and-goal mistake in the Sun-Sentinel article.

The NCAA outlawed "split-squads" at the end of the 1988 season.
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This is such a dumb mistake that refs should lose their jobs.

Wasn’t it Colorado that benefited from a very similar mistake wherein they received an extra down?
 
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RF-4CCane said:
With JJ’s recruits. He still got gems, but left glaring holes, especially at OLine. His one back offense lacked versatility compared to Howard, JJ’s, Butches and Coker’s offenses, before Coker than left gaping holes in recruiting himself.
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Dennis Erickson is the most successful head coach in school history. He built the best staffs college football has ever seen. He won more with Jimmy's players than Jimmy did with Jimmy's players. The hate he gets on this site is pure insanity.

After he left, the 1995 and 1996 defenses were both among the most talented in college football, and were recruited under his watch.

You'd think Dennis was Alfred J. Folden the way some of you talk about him.
 
Brains said:
Dennis Erickson is the most successful head coach in school history. He built the best staffs college football has ever seen. He won more with Jimmy's players than Jimmy did with Jimmy's players. The hate he gets on this site is pure insanity.

After he left, the 1995 and 1996 defenses were both among the most talented in college football, and were recruited under his watch.

You'd think Dennis was Alfred J. Folden the way some of you talk about him.
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I would never put Erickson in the category of Golden. Jimmy should have left with three rings had he not made two crucial game day decisions.

So you’re right, Erickson utilized Jimmy’s players better than Jimmy.
But, what your forgetting is, those 1993-1996 teams had glaring holes at QB, OLine and WR. That was due to Erickson’s recruiting.

Can you tell me with a straight face that those 93-96 teams were across the board as talented as 86-91 or 2000-2003?
 
Memnon said:
What did Butch do with Butch's recruits ever in his entire career anywhere?
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Watch yo self.
 
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