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History question re: 80s/90s UM results

TheOriginalCane said:
Somewhere on one of my old computers, I have a download of an article from the Sun-Sentinel that explains this.

Back then, when there were big games such as Miami-ND, they would use "split-squads" of referees, half from one pool of refs, half from another.

So on 4th and 7 from the 11, the split crew misunderstood down-and-distance and thought it was 4th AND GOAL. Therefore, they gave the ball to Notre Dame "where Cleveland Gary's knee was down" inside the 1, and NOT "where Stonebreaker recovered the non-fumble" which was outside the 2.

This is why you see Jimmy Johnson (on the sideline) making the FIRST DOWN motion with his arm. Not the "TD" signal. And certainly not patting the ground with the "ball is down, ground can't cause a fumble" signal.

One of the refs admitted the 4th-and-goal mistake in the Sun-Sentinel article.

The NCAA outlawed "split-squads" at the end of the 1988 season.
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Have them executed.
 
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RF-4CCane said:
I would never put Erickson in the category of Golden. Jimmy should have left with three rings had he not made two crucial game day decisions.

So you’re right, Erickson utilized Jimmy’s players better than Jimmy.
But, what your forgetting is, those 1993-1996 teams had glaring holes at QB, OLine and WR. That was due to Erickson’s recruiting.

Can you tell me with a straight face that those 93-96 teams were across the board as talented as 86-91 or 2000-2003?
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No disagreement.
 
AtlAtty said:
This is such a dumb mistake that refs should lose their jobs.

Wasn’t it Colorado that benefited from a very similar mistake wherein they received an extra down?
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I agree, and yes, Colorado not only won a game from that fifth down play, THEY WON A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP. They tied Tennessee to open the season AND lost to Illinois. Had Missouri CORRECTLY won the game over Colorado, there's no way Colorado wins the (split) national championship.

As it stands, GaTech had the better record that year anyhow, at 11-0-1. Not sure how ANYONE could vote for Colorado over GaTech as a national champ, but they did.
 
Brains said:
Dennis Erickson is the most successful head coach in school history. He built the best staffs college football has ever seen. He won more with Jimmy's players than Jimmy did with Jimmy's players. The hate he gets on this site is pure insanity.

After he left, the 1995 and 1996 defenses were both among the most talented in college football, and were recruited under his watch.

You'd think Dennis was Alfred J. Folden the way some of you talk about him.
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Whoa, whoa, whoa, stop the clock.

JJ went 52-9. His last three years (when he had "Jimmy's players") he went 11-1, 12-0, and 11-1 (and arguably should not have lost the last Notre Dame game).

Dennis went 63-9 in one additional year (compared to JJ). In his first two years (when he presumably had "Jimmy's players") he went 11-1 and 10-2. So Dennis actually lost more games with JJ's players (in two years) than JJ did with his own players in three years.

I was there for both coaches, I knew a ton of football players since I was an Athletic Department tutor. I can definitely tell you there was more discipline under JJ than under Dennis, though Dennis was "no Barry Switzer" either. I realize this is just going to be pinpoint examples, but JJ created the Academic Support group that transformed Miami's athletic department and graduation rates. While Dennis is known (rightly or wrongly) for putting Warren Sapp's drug test in his desk drawer while he figured out a new policy. And Tony Russell.

Both JJ and Dennis were great coaches at UM. Particularly if you give JJ partial credit for being forced to keep most of Schnellenberger's coaches in 1984, you can understand the coaching mutiny that year, when we lost our last 3 games of the season. 1984 was JJ's only outlier at UM, and there are valid reasons.

As for the athletic staffs and the "coaching tree", JJ assembled some great talent too. One thing that separates JJ is that he had tremendous success in the NFL too, something that eluded Dennis, where he never had a season better than 8-8. And while Dennis (after his return to college football) had one good season at Oregon State (11 wins) and one good season at Arizona State (10 wins), he had 8 very mediocre seasons out of 10 in college after he was at UM. And please note, Dennis usually had his best seasons, at any job, in either his first or second year. The only exception was Miami, where he won his 2nd national championship in his third year.

And on the defensive recruiting side, much though it pains me to say this, you have to give more credit to Sonny Lubick and Greg McMackin and Tommy Tuberville and Ed Orgeron and Randy Shannon and Greg Mark for whatever was left for Butch in 1995 and 1996.

Again, I'm not trying to slam Dennis. I know that he won 2 rings at UM and got out right before the caca hit the fan. But overall, JJ was the better coach. He just was, and I don't think you'll find many UM players WHO PLAYED FOR BOTH who would say otherwise.
 
AtlAtty said:
1985-Vinny gets into a motorcycle accident before the Bowl game. I tink he still played the entire game but he wasn’t his usual self. Also, the narrative at this point was still that Jimmy couldn’t win the big game, which leads us to 1986

1986-I believe Jimmy Johnson is one of the best football coaches at any level of the past 50 years. But he was not good on this day. UM was running all over Pedo State but Vinny kept throwing INT’s. Many of us wanted to literally abandon the passions game mid-way thru the 3rd quarter

1988-We were screwed over so many ways, but the great ***** job was the ND game. Cleveland Gary was either down by contact at the 1 yard line, or he scored because he reached out and the ground can’t cause the fumble. I don’t recall why we didn’t get another shot at the title, but I believe ND and WVU were undefeated and back then, if there were 2 undefeated teams, they were playing in the national championship/bowl game.
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I think your comments re 1986 are a complete bullseye. Had we not thrown a single pass int hat game, we win by double digits easily. Jimmy kept forcing the passing game though. Most just point the finger at Vinny (and yes, he deserved it), but Jimmy deserves just as much blame.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
Whoa, whoa, whoa, stop the clock.

JJ went 52-9. His last three years (when he had "Jimmy's players") he went 11-1, 12-0, and 11-1 (and arguably should not have lost the last Notre Dame game).

Dennis went 63-9 in one additional year (compared to JJ). In his first two years (when he presumably had "Jimmy's players") he went 11-1 and 10-2. So Dennis actually lost more games with JJ's players (in two years) than JJ did with his own players in three years.

I was there for both coaches, I knew a ton of football players since I was an Athletic Department tutor. I can definitely tell you there was more discipline under JJ than under Dennis, though Dennis was "no Barry Switzer" either. I realize this is just going to be pinpoint examples, but JJ created the Academic Support group that transformed Miami's athletic department and graduation rates. While Dennis is known (rightly or wrongly) for putting Warren Sapp's drug test in his desk drawer while he figured out a new policy. And Tony Russell.

Both JJ and Dennis were great coaches at UM. Particularly if you give JJ partial credit for being forced to keep most of Schnellenberger's coaches in 1984, you can understand the coaching mutiny that year, when we lost our last 3 games of the season. 1984 was JJ's only outlier at UM, and there are valid reasons.

As for the athletic staffs and the "coaching tree", JJ assembled some great talent too. One thing that separates JJ is that he had tremendous success in the NFL too, something that eluded Dennis, where he never had a season better than 8-8. And while Dennis (after his return to college football) had one good season at Oregon State (11 wins) and one good season at Arizona State (10 wins), he had 8 very mediocre seasons out of 10 in college after he was at UM. And please note, Dennis usually had his best seasons, at any job, in either his first or second year. The only exception was Miami, where he won his 2nd national championship in his third year.

And on the defensive recruiting side, much though it pains me to say this, you have to give more credit to Sonny Lubick and Greg McMackin and Tommy Tuberville and Ed Orgeron and Randy Shannon and Greg Mark for whatever was left for Butch in 1995 and 1996.

Again, I'm not trying to slam Dennis. I know that he won 2 rings at UM and got out right before the caca hit the fan. But overall, JJ was the better coach. He just was, and I don't think you'll find many UM players WHO PLAYED FOR BOTH who would say otherwise.
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I don't have any issue with this take.

I've just gotten really sick of the slanderous takes against Dennis on this site, and I'm going after people on the issue.

Dude did more in 6 years here than Bowden did in 50 at FSU or Paterno did in 85 at Pedo State.
 
AtlAtty said:
1985-Vinny gets into a motorcycle accident before the Bowl game. I tink he still played the entire game but he wasn’t his usual self. Also, the narrative at this point was still that Jimmy couldn’t win the big game, which leads us to 1986

1986-I believe Jimmy Johnson is one of the best football coaches at any level of the past 50 years. But he was not good on this day. UM was running all over Pedo State but Vinny kept throwing INT’s. Many of us wanted to literally abandon the passions game mid-way thru the 3rd quarter

1988-We were screwed over so many ways, but the great ***** job was the ND game. Cleveland Gary was either down by contact at the 1 yard line, or he scored because he reached out and the ground can’t cause the fumble. I don’t recall why we didn’t get another shot at the title, but I believe ND and WVU were undefeated and back then, if there were 2 undefeated teams, they were playing in the national championship/bowl game.
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Point of clarification, Vinnie's scooter accident happened in 1986, in November of my freshman year. GEOFF Torretta played the final game against East Carolina. Thus, by the time we played Pedo State, Vinnie hadn't played in a game for SEVEN WEEKS.

As for "running all over Pedo State" in the Fiasco Bowl, both teams ran 43 times each. Miami had 160 yards, Pedo State had 109 yards. The big advantage was in passing, where Miami had 285 yards and Pedo State had 53 yards passing.

And, yes, the five interceptions certainly hurt us.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
I agree, and yes, Colorado not only won a game from that fifth down play, THEY WON A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP. They tied Tennessee to open the season AND lost to Illinois. Had Missouri CORRECTLY won the game over Colorado, there's no way Colorado wins the (split) national championship.

As it stands, GaTech had the better record that year anyhow, at 11-0-1. Not sure how ANYONE could vote for Colorado over GaTech as a national champ, but they did.
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A bit off topic but if there were a playoff system then, we beat both of these teams and still be champs with 2 losses.
 
Brains said:
I don't have any issue with this take.

I've just gotten really sick of the slanderous takes against Dennis on this site, and I'm going after people on the issue.

Dude did more in 6 years here than Bowden did in 50 at FSU or Paterno did in 85 at Pedo State.
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It's all good, sir. I obviously have a preference for JJ, but they were both excellent coaches at UM. I was saddened by the tail-end of things with Dennis, though the wins and the losses don't fully reflect that. I just saw an erosion of personal and team discipline that was frustrating, and may not have ALL been Erickson's fault. But the drinking was fairly well-known around campus. Too many people saw too many incidents.

And, sadly, over the years, I lost an AWESOME old-fashioned Kodak photo of Dennis with bloodshot eyes at the post-Sugar-Bowl party in 1990, after his first championship. The signs were there.

I still have great affection for him and Ed O and all the rest of the UM coaches from that era who liked to pound some beers.
 
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caneULM said:
A bit off topic but if there were a playoff system then, we beat both of these teams and still be champs with 2 losses.
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Not disagreeing at all. Just pointing out how things worked under the "old" system.

A lot of great bowl games were "never played" due to the conference affiliations at the time.
 
BigDikDaddyFromCincinnati said:
I think your comments re 1986 are a complete bullseye. Had we not thrown a single pass int hat game, we win by double digits easily. Jimmy kept forcing the passing game though. Most just point the finger at Vinny (and yes, he deserved it), but Jimmy deserves just as much blame.
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Agreed. Though my issue with JJ was not pulling Vinny when it was obvious he wasn’t himself. Let’s say 3rd qtr, JJ should have put Walsh in. And before anyone says Walsh wasn’t ready, 9 months later he would start what was an unbeaten season and all he had to do was hand the ball off and make a couple high % passes if need be. No way in **** Walsh throws passes right into the numbers of PSU LB’ers with no Canes within 5 yards.

Also, the blame should be on Steven’s for the reliance on the passing game when it was obvious Vinny wasn’t Vinny. Though I believe Steven’s claimed some time later that it was Vinny who audibled out of several run calls to pass plays.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
I agree, and yes, Colorado not only won a game from that fifth down play, THEY WON A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP. They tied Tennessee to open the season AND lost to Illinois. Had Missouri CORRECTLY won the game over Colorado, there's no way Colorado wins the (split) national championship.

As it stands, GaTech had the better record that year anyhow, at 11-0-1. Not sure how ANYONE could vote for Colorado over GaTech as a national champ, but they did.
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Colorado had a ridiculously talented team, played an insane schedule, and still SHOULD NOT have been gifted that national championship. Except for the one draw, GT had a very impressive run. I'm convinced the voters justified based on the schedule, and the "eye test." But their eye test was bogus. Rewarding a tie, a loss, and a fradulent 5th down with a national championship is the height of hypocrisy. I'm also confident GT would have beaten them in a head to head matchup.
 
RF-4CCane said:
Agreed. Though my issue with JJ was not pulling Vinny when it was obvious he wasn’t himself. Let’s say 3rd qtr, JJ should have put Walsh in. And before anyone says Walsh wasn’t ready, 9 months later he would start what was an unbeaten season and all he had to do was hand the ball off and make a couple high % passes if need be. No way in **** Walsh throws passes right into the numbers of PSU LB’ers with no Canes within 5 yards.

Also, the blame should be on Steven’s for the reliance on the passing game when it was obvious Vinny wasn’t Vinny. Though I believe Steven’s claimed some time later that it was Vinny who audibled out of several run calls to pass plays.
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This is for both you and @BigDikDaddyFromCincinnati ...all due respect, but please look at the stats and what really happened.

We were NOT great at running the ball that game. The numbers don't lie. And, sure, maybe our rushing numbers are slighly higher if you don't include QB sacks, but the same could be said of Pedo State.

And in case it needs to be pointed out again, ALL of our positive yardage on the final drive came from passing the ball. So even if you pull out THAT drive, Vinnie STILL had over 200 yards even before the final drive started (while Pedo State had 53 yards).

So, sorry, but we ran 43 times for 160 yards. That is NOT great, however you slice it. So if we converted ALL FIFTY of our passes to runs, I'm not seeing this "runaway game where we win by double digits". Pedo State, much though I have hated them since that day, had a good DL and a good LB corps. We were NOT gashing them for big runs. Perhaps we could have avoided the interceptions by running the ball all the time, but I'm still having a hard time seeing how a team that runs for under 4 yards per carry is suddenly going to run away with things by running FIFTY MORE TIMES.

I get that Vinnie gets heat for his 2 bowl games. Legit. Scored 17 points combined in 2 bowl games. Don't let me dissuade valid criticism.

But maybe, just maybe, this whole storyline dissipates if Vinnie doesn't get sacked on 2nd and goal at the end of the game. The same OL that we think may have been dominant if only we ran the ball 93 times.

Go back in time and analyze the game as it happened, not as it has been mythologized for nearly 40 years.
 
RF-4CCane said:
Erickson was a lazy recruiter and probation?
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He was not a lazy recruiter (I saw him nearly knock over my friend's dad to get to Lamont Green after a Palmetto/Southridge game), he just wasn't great at certain positions like OL, where he preferred giant lumbering sows to hard-working athletic types. Hence your Zev Lumeskis and Freeman Browns.

The '92 team was very talented but deeply flawed. First off we missed a good chuck of critical practice time due to Hurricane Andrew. Secondly he offense went completely into a shell sometimes. (see the Arizona game where Rusty Medaris blew out his knee. That game was torturous to watch). Gino had his moments but also had loooong stretches of being unproductive. As was said before OL was also wildly inconsistent. also the RB room was talented but just meh as far as results. Best RB was Donnell Bennet and he averaged 4.3 YPC. Ferguson was just a freshman getting mostly garbage time carries. McGuire was coming off knee surgery. In the sugar bowl we gave up 18 passing yards (!!) and still lost. Bama couldn't complete a forward pass and we still couldn't stop the run. And obviously the offense sh*t the bed even though we outgained them yardage wise. We actually had a more talented team in '94 except for QB and that killed us.
 
RF-4CCane said:
Agreed. Though my issue with JJ was not pulling Vinny when it was obvious he wasn’t himself. Let’s say 3rd qtr, JJ should have put Walsh in. And before anyone says Walsh wasn’t ready, 9 months later he would start what was an unbeaten season and all he had to do was hand the ball off and make a couple high % passes if need be. No way in **** Walsh throws passes right into the numbers of PSU LB’ers with no Canes within 5 yards.

Also, the blame should be on Steven’s for the reliance on the passing game when it was obvious Vinny wasn’t Vinny. Though I believe Steven’s claimed some time later that it was Vinny who audibled out of several run calls to pass plays.
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Vinny was bad that night. like BAD. He should've been yanked, but he also had just won the Heisman, so egos were at play. I just rememeber that last drive thinking for a moment "we still have a shot" while simultaneously thinking "Vinny gonna throw #5." Sure as the sun rises in the East, #5 sealed the deal as time was running out. What an awful night.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
This is for both you and @BigDikDaddyFromCincinnati ...all due respect, but please look at the stats and what really happened.

We were NOT great at running the ball that game. The numbers don't lie. And, sure, maybe our rushing numbers are slighly higher if you don't include QB sacks, but the same could be said of Pedo State.

And in case it needs to be pointed out again, ALL of our positive yardage on the final drive came from passing the ball. So even if you pull out THAT drive, Vinnie STILL had over 200 yards even before the final drive started (while Pedo State had 53 yards).

So, sorry, but we ran 43 times for 160 yards. That is NOT great, however you slice it. So if we converted ALL FIFTY of our passes to runs, I'm not seeing this "runaway game where we win by double digits". Pedo State, much though I have hated them since that day, had a good DL and a good LB corps. We were NOT gashing them for big runs. Perhaps we could have avoided the interceptions by running the ball all the time, but I'm still having a hard time seeing how a team that runs for under 4 yards per carry is suddenly going to run away with things by running FIFTY MORE TIMES.

I get that Vinnie gets heat for his 2 bowl games. Legit. Scored 17 points combined in 2 bowl games. Don't let me dissuade valid criticism.

But maybe, just maybe, this whole storyline dissipates if Vinnie doesn't get sacked on 2nd and goal at the end of the game. The same OL that we think may have been dominant if only we ran the ball 93 times.

Go back in time and analyze the game as it happened, not as it has been mythologized for nearly 40 years.
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I believe we had to use our last time out after that sack on 2nd G
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
I agree, and yes, Colorado not only won a game from that fifth down play, THEY WON A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP. They tied Tennessee to open the season AND lost to Illinois. Had Missouri CORRECTLY won the game over Colorado, there's no way Colorado wins the (split) national championship.

As it stands, GaTech had the better record that year anyhow, at 11-0-1. Not sure how ANYONE could vote for Colorado over GaTech as a national champ, but they did.
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The Miami team that played the Cotton Bowl would have beaten GT
 
TheOriginalCane said:
This is for both you and @BigDikDaddyFromCincinnati ...all due respect, but please look at the stats and what really happened.

We were NOT great at running the ball that game. The numbers don't lie. And, sure, maybe our rushing numbers are slighly higher if you don't include QB sacks, but the same could be said of Pedo State.

And in case it needs to be pointed out again, ALL of our positive yardage on the final drive came from passing the ball. So even if you pull out THAT drive, Vinnie STILL had over 200 yards even before the final drive started (while Pedo State had 53 yards).

So, sorry, but we ran 43 times for 160 yards. That is NOT great, however you slice it. So if we converted ALL FIFTY of our passes to runs, I'm not seeing this "runaway game where we win by double digits". Pedo State, much though I have hated them since that day, had a good DL and a good LB corps. We were NOT gashing them for big runs. Perhaps we could have avoided the interceptions by running the ball all the time, but I'm still having a hard time seeing how a team that runs for under 4 yards per carry is suddenly going to run away with things by running FIFTY MORE TIMES.

I get that Vinnie gets heat for his 2 bowl games. Legit. Scored 17 points combined in 2 bowl games. Don't let me dissuade valid criticism.

But maybe, just maybe, this whole storyline dissipates if Vinnie doesn't get sacked on 2nd and goal at the end of the game. The same OL that we think may have been dominant if only we ran the ball 93 times.

Go back in time and analyze the game as it happened, not as it has been mythologized for nearly 40 years.
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Let’s take the last drive and Int out of the equation for a minute.

How many drives did Vinny’s first 4 Int’s kill and how many points did PSU score off of those picks?

We were only down by 4 points after giving them 4 Ints. Even one less Int results in the difference in the game.

Highsmith was 18 for 119 yards rushing by himself. That is 6.6 ypc.
 
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