forums

GUS EDWARDS $$$$$

TruCane81 said:
This is better.

For the record, I didn’t like Yearby getting benched when it happened. I was more upset by his departure than Gus’. It worked out because Homer was a beast.

Walton had a poor freshman year in 2015, but he bounced.

Walton’s emergence at the end of 2016 changed my mind. That was what Richt saw from the beginning. Yearby was awesome moving the chains but he was slow.

Walton came out BEASTING in 2017 with two huge games. Duke sold out to stop the run so he only went 17 for 51 but he had almost 80 yards receiving. Florida State is always tough sledding and Mark got hurt and that was it for his college career.

The real culprit in this was Richt’s garbage offense. If you recall, we were losing games with Richt’s garbage, slow developing pass plays and snail tempo. When we quick passed and ran tempo we were much better.

We had three good backs and all of them should have eaten, but inconsistent line play and bad play calling and strategy killed that.

I don’t think it was favoritism. Walton was a Golden recruit. Yearby was slow and Gus fell behind in Richt’s offense. The timing of his injury didn’t help. By the end of 2016, I changed my mind and Walton was the guy. His play in 2017 confirmed it, then he got hurt.

These are all the answers you need. This ain’t a trial. I’m smart enough to recognize when someone is trying to lead me into a trap with loaded questions demanding yes and no answers. The context of these type situations is too nuanced for the rigidity of leading questions. You should have been a lawyer.
Click to expand...

I'll never understand why Walton's 2017 was seen as him BEASTING instead of it just being par for the course?

2015 Joe Yearby (First 4 games) - 4.9 ypc at end of the year
58-424 yds - 7.3 ypc - 4 TD

2016 Mark Walton (First 4 games) - 5.3 ypc at end of the year
63-445 yds - 7.1 ypc - 8 TD

2017 Mark Walton (First 4 games) - 13.0 ypc the first 2 games, 2.6 ypc the next 2
56-428 yds - 7.6 ypc - 3 TD

2019 Deejay Dallas (First 3 games) - 6.0 ypc at end of the year
37-309 yds - 8.4 ypc - 4 TD

2020 Cam Harris (First 3 games) - 5.1 ypc at end of the year
38-311 yds - 8.2 ypc - 5 TD

Seriously - it happens EVERY year. EVERY....****....YEAR.....

But the excitement and hope of the new season will get fans every single time. They don't want to realize these RB's will come back down to earth as the season goes on and the schedule gets harder.

This is why the "Walton would've had a huge year in 2017 if he hadn't gotten hurt!" makes me laugh every time.

Like - Imagine if Cam had the good fortune of being injured for the season after 3 games like Walton did? People would be talking about him as a 2nd Round pick/best RB in the country. Unfortunately for Cam, he stayed healthy and everyone had to face reality.

Fortunately - Walton did get hurt so he didn't get exposed. And it paved the way for Homer who helped us win the FSU & GT games we wouldn't have won otherwise. And it allowed Deejay to switch to RB. Everyone Wins.

This is also why looking at such a small sample size gets you in trouble when evaluating.

Walton's 3 game Pitt/UVA/NC St Hot Streak - 49-356 yds - 7.3 ypc - 5 TD
Walton's 9 other P5 games under Richt - 141-436 yds - 3.1 ypc - 2 TD

If a plyer is bad 25% of the time, and bad 75% of the time - Guess what?

But after 3 big games, confirmation bias and narratives can kick in:

Now it's Richt was a genius and he could just see what others couldn't this whole time (nope, not favoritism at all....See my post on Page 4 Tru)
Now it's it's only Yearby is small & slow - when actually BOTH Yearby AND Walton are small & slow
Now it's everyone committing to this "If Walton gets hurt we're screwed" narrative, even though Homer is better
Now it's Walton goes 17-51 against Duke because they "sold out to stop the run". Even though Homer went 3-43 yds.
Now it's Walton goes 12-25 vs FSU while Homer goes 3-29 yds. But Walton's pass protection is SO valuable!
Now it's Homer has 170 yds rushing in his 1st start is because GT wasn't worried about the run (Walton never even had 150 total yds vs P5 ever)

Now the narratives become stronger than the reality - even as they get more and more ridiculous because people are so invested in them.

"Walton is a Beast" is Miami's own "Biden stole the Election!" Our QAnon. Our Flat Earth. Narratives > Facts

Why so many narratives were built around Walton not performing well vs looking at the very simple and obvious reason that he was 200 lbs and ran a 4.6....is something I'll never understand.

Walton will get market corrected over time - but it's still really weird.
 
Last edited:
Advertisement
bshaw28 said:
I'll never understand why Walton's 2017 was seen as him BEASTING instead of it just being par for the course?

2015 Joe Yearby (First 4 games) - 4.9 ypc at end of the year
58-424 yds - 7.3 ypc - 4 TD

2016 Mark Walton (First 4 games) - 5.3 ypc at end of the year
63-445 yds - 7.1 ypc - 8 TD

2017 Mark Walton (First 4 games) - 13.0 ypc the first 2 games, 2.6 ypc the next 2
56-428 yds - 7.6 ypc - 3 TD

2019 Deejay Dallas (First 3 games) - 6.0 ypc at end of the year
37-309 yds - 8.4 ypc - 4 TD

2020 Cam Harris (First 3 games) - 5.1 ypc at end of the year
38-311 yds - 8.2 ypc - 5 TD

Seriously - it happens EVERY year. EVERY....****....YEAR.....

But the excitement and hope of the new season will get fans every single time. They don't want to realize these RB's will come back down to earth as the season goes on and the schedule gets harder.

This is why the "Walton would've had a huge year in 2017 if he hadn't gotten hurt!" makes me laugh every time.

Like - Imagine if Cam had the good fortune of being injured for the season after 3 games like Walton did? People would be talking about him as a 2nd Round pick/best RB in the country. Unfortunately for Cam, he stayed healthy and everyone had to face reality.

Fortunately - Walton did get hurt so he didn't get exposed. And it paved the way for Homer who helped us win the FSU & GT games we wouldn't have won otherwise. And it allowed Deejay to switch to RB. Everyone Wins.

This is also why looking at such a small sample size gets you in trouble when evaluating.

Walton's 3 game Pitt/UVA/NC St Hot Streak - 49-356 yds - 7.3 ypc - 5 TD
Walton's 9 other P5 games under Richt - 141-436 yds - 3.1 ypc - 2 TD

If a plyer is bad 25% of the time, and bad 75% of the time - Guess what?

But after 3 big games, confirmation bias and narratives can kick in:

Now it's Richt was a genius and he could just see what others couldn't this whole time (nope, not favoritism at all....See my post on Page 4 Tru)
Now it's it's only Yearby is small & slow - when actually BOTH Yearby AND Walton are small & slow
Now it's everyone committing to this "If Walton gets hurt we're screwed" narrative, even though Homer is better
Now it's Walton goes 17-51 against Duke because they "sold out to stop the run". Even though Homer went 3-43 yds.
Now it's Walton goes 12-25 vs FSU while Homer goes 3-29 yds. But Walton's pass protection is SO valuable!
Now it's Homer has 170 yds rushing in his 1st start is because GT wasn't worried about the run (Walton never even had 150 total yds vs P5 ever)

Now the narratives become stronger than the reality - even as they get more and more ridiculous because people are so invested in them.

"Walton is a Beast" is Miami's own "Biden stole the Election!" Our QAnon. Our Flat Earth. Narratives > Facts

Why so many narratives were built around Walton not performing well vs looking at the very simple and obvious reason that he was 200 lbs and ran a 4.6....is something I'll never understand.

Walton will get market corrected over time - but it's still really weird.
Click to expand...

It is par for the course.

We have put out a steady stream of NFL backs. Yearby would have been one too if he was a 4.5 guy instead of a 4.7 guy. He had the worst ypc vs guys who actually made rosters.

These guys are underrated because of our offensive line problems. I don’t care how they projected pro wise. They were very good college backs.

I don’t like the Cam analogy because we were limited with our install. The offense got predictable and went boom or bust like it has for the last 5 years at least. Clemson gave blueprint how to shut our zone run down and King was new to the zone read with few live reps. Cam will play in the league.

Mark’s emergence opened things for Malik. It hurt when we lost him. The poor line play and predictable play calling has caused several of our backs to fizzle.
 
TruCane81 said:
It is par for the course.

We have put out a steady stream of NFL backs. Yearby would have been one too if he was a 4.5 guy instead of a 4.7 guy. He had the worst ypc vs guys who actually made rosters.

These guys are underrated because of our offensive line problems. I don’t care how they projected pro wise. They were very good college backs.

I don’t like the Cam analogy because we were limited with our install. The offense got predictable and went boom or bust like it has for the last 5 years at least. Clemson gave blueprint how to shut our zone run down and King was new to the zone read with few live reps. Cam will play in the league.

Mark’s emergence opened things for Malik. It hurt when we lost him. The poor line play and predictable play calling has caused several of our backs to fizzle.
Click to expand...

I agree - ALL RB's the last 10+ years have been good college RB's - so I don't want to act like they're not.

But there's distinctly different talent levels. Lumping them all together as "NFL Talents" isn't really fair.

Our 3 Tiers for both College & NFL ability are:

Tier 1 - NFL Starter/Major Contributor - Lamar Miller, Duke Johnson
Tier 2 - NFL Back-Up - Travis Homer, Deejay Dallas
Tier 3 - NFL Journeyman - Cam Harris, Mark Walton, Mike James, Damien Berry, Joe Yearby, Graig Cooper

Now....I know I will get hated on for this. I especially apologize the Dade/Broward RB die-hards - I know this is a hard pill to swallow.

But here's what our starting RB's did vs P5 teams by year (I like using P5 because it eliminates the random huge games vs FAMU, BCU, etc.)

The OL & Coaching didn't suddenly get better 2011-2014 - Miller & Duke are just better than Cooper & Berry
The OL & Coaching didn't suddenly get worse 2015-2016 - Yearby & Walton just aren't near as good as Miller & Duke
The OL & Coaching didn't suddenly get better 2017-2019 - Homer & Deejay are just better than Yearby & Walton
The OL & Coaching didn't suddenly get worse 2020 - Cam just isn't as good as Homer & Deejay


1625001556149.png


The reality is Walton's 2016 is no better than Yearby's 2015 or Cam's 2020 - and all those were nothing special. And it's because those RB's are solid, but nothing special. Walton's 2016 is the extreme example of how far people will go to convince themselves a player is better than he is.

So with Cam in 2020 it's a Scheme & OL issue. Yearby in 2015 it was "the worst Miami OL ever". With Walton there's too much to list.

It's not an insult to group Walton/Cam with Cooper/Berry (who if you look at it played better in our big games) - because they are similar talents. Again, I apologize to the South Florida die-hards.

You can tell yourself whatever you want in terms of OL, play calling, situations - whatever.

But the better players put up better numbers.......because they're better players.
 
bshaw28 said:
With the benefit of hindsight - a couple questions for you

Do you think Walton was really good in college? Or looking back, do you think he was overrated? Like - do you think Walton was much better than Gus in college and definitely should have been a high draft choice? Or do you think Walton was better than Gus, but just by a little bit?

Do you think it's fair to criticize some of Richt's decisions at Miami? Like - he obviously played favorites on the coaching staff keeping his son as QB coach who wasn't very good, right? Is it possible he might have also played favorite players who also weren't that good?
Click to expand...
I truly think that since Gus was on a short leash because he wasn't a southie. Walton was a great back with great balance but lacked the speed or size for the next level. But without a doubt Miami show favs to the southwest players which is why we haven't been relevant in 20yrs
 
PlanoCane said:
I truly think that since Gus was on a short leash because he wasn't a southie. Walton was a great back with great balance but lacked the speed or size for the next level. But without a doubt Miami show favs to the southwest players which is why we haven't been relevant in 20yrs
Click to expand...

I think South Florida players are the best in the country. The trick is to get the right ones, which we haven't been doing for a while. At least not near enough of the right ones.

But no question the fanbase will be more forgiving to a South Florida player than an out of state player. And that makes sense - but sometimes it's taken too far.
 
Advertisement
bshaw28 said:
I agree - ALL RB's the last 10+ years have been good college RB's - so I don't want to act like they're not.

But there's distinctly different talent levels. Lumping them all together as "NFL Talents" isn't really fair.

Our 3 Tiers for both College & NFL ability are:

Tier 1 - NFL Starter/Major Contributor - Lamar Miller, Duke Johnson
Tier 2 - NFL Back-Up - Travis Homer, Deejay Dallas
Tier 3 - NFL Journeyman - Cam Harris, Mark Walton, Mike James, Damien Berry, Joe Yearby, Graig Cooper

Now....I know I will get hated on for this. I especially apologize the Dade/Broward RB die-hards - I know this is a hard pill to swallow.

But here's what our starting RB's did vs P5 teams by year (I like using P5 because it eliminates the random huge games vs FAMU, BCU, etc.)

The OL & Coaching didn't suddenly get better 2011-2014 - Miller & Duke are just better than Cooper & Berry
The OL & Coaching didn't suddenly get worse 2015-2016 - Yearby & Walton just aren't near as good as Miller & Duke
The OL & Coaching didn't suddenly get better 2017-2019 - Homer & Deejay are just better than Yearby & Walton
The OL & Coaching didn't suddenly get worse 2020 - Cam just isn't as good as Homer & Deejay


View attachment 148847

The reality is Walton's 2016 is no better than Yearby's 2015 or Cam's 2020 - and all those were nothing special. And it's because those RB's are solid, but nothing special. Walton's 2016 is the extreme example of how far people will go to convince themselves a player is better than he is.

So with Cam in 2020 it's a Scheme & OL issue. Yearby in 2015 it was "the worst Miami OL ever". With Walton there's too much to list.

It's not an insult to group Walton/Cam with Cooper/Berry (who if you look at it played better in our big games) - because they are similar talents. Again, I apologize to the South Florida die-hards.

You can tell yourself whatever you want in terms of OL, play calling, situations - whatever.

But the better players put up better numbers.......because they're better players.
Click to expand...

You my friend are the master of creating strawmen to execute. You are the Joseph Stalin of strawmen.

Better players put up better numbers? Congratulations. You just won the Captain Obvious Man of the Year award.

All you did was write all that to say that some of our NFL caliber backs were better than other NFL caliber backs. No ****.

When you make a 53 man roster, you are one of the best in the world. It doesn’t matter if you are all pro or 3rd string. That qualifies you as very good.

The only time I even compared players was to say I saw why Richt chose Walton over Edwards and Yearby. You keep moving the goal posts to argue against positions I have not taken. It’s so bad we ain’t even talking about Mark and Gus anymore. That is masterful work on your part.

When I judge players I don’t just rely on raw numbers. I look at the situation that created those numbers.

2015 Yearby was playing for a team that quit on Golden.

2016 Mark was learning Richt’s offense, but got better over time but got hurt as he was coming into his own.

2017-18 Homer was our most explosive back since Duke and it showed. He did get to hit the ground running with. year of experience in the offense before having to play. It helped.

2019 Starting two freshman tackles who weren’t ready while installing a new system. Not ideal but DJ was a beast. It was roughing sledding sometimes, but his talent made plays. He had big ypc average boosting runs from the Wildcat on a smaller sample size of carries.

2020 Cam starts strong but Clemson puts out the blueprint for how to suff the inside zone. Interior line play is poor. Cam gets frustrated with two talented freshman nipping at his heels. Loses focus and loses carries to a stud in Chaney. King isn’t good at read option and the run game is inconsistent regardless who carries the ball.

The situations shed light on to why things went the way it did. But this conversation has gone a long way from where it started.

Gus Edwards was a big back that ran like a scat back when we needed a short yardage guy to replace Dallas Crawford. He couldn’t do it so coaches soured on him and he never got the carries he should have. He got hurt and couldn’t take control of the running back room. His ypc declined and just never had that moment.

Richt saw something in Walton that made him choose Walton over Yearby and Edwards. In late 2016-early 2017, Walton showed why Richt made the right choice. Walton got hurt while starting to play his best football, so his numbers are skewed in comparison to comparable backs who played 3 full seasons. He struggled early, came on strong then it was over.

According to your numbers, Gus and Mark are about the same player in college. You are salty Richt chose Mark due to what you believe to be favoritism. I think Gus just fell behind recovering from his injury. Richt benched a 1000 back FROM SOUTH FLORIDA to play Walton. Injury prevented the full realization of his foresight.

They both became NFL starters, but Mark’s career got derailed by off field issues. Injuries and misadventure have made a fair comparison between the two nearly impossible.

With that I’m done with this conversation. You can come up with numbers to murder strawmen if you like, but someone law will have to engage you with that.
 
TruCane81 said:
You my friend are the master of creating strawmen to execute. You are the Joseph Stalin of strawmen.

Better players put up better numbers? Congratulations. You just won the Captain Obvious Man of the Year award.

All you did was write all that to say that some of our NFL caliber backs were better than other NFL caliber backs. No ****.

When you make a 53 man roster, you are one of the best in the world. It doesn’t matter if you are all pro or 3rd string. That qualifies you as very good.

The only time I even compared players was to say I saw why Richt chose Walton over Edwards and Yearby. You keep moving the goal posts to argue against positions I have not taken. It’s so bad we ain’t even talking about Mark and Gus anymore. That is masterful work on your part.

When I judge players I don’t just rely on raw numbers. I look at the situation that created those numbers.

2015 Yearby was playing for a team that quit on Golden.

2016 Mark was learning Richt’s offense, but got better over time but got hurt as he was coming into his own.

2017-18 Homer was our most explosive back since Duke and it showed. He did get to hit the ground running with. year of experience in the offense before having to play. It helped.

2019 Starting two freshman tackles who weren’t ready while installing a new system. Not ideal but DJ was a beast. It was roughing sledding sometimes, but his talent made plays. He had big ypc average boosting runs from the Wildcat on a smaller sample size of carries.

2020 Cam starts strong but Clemson puts out the blueprint for how to suff the inside zone. Interior line play is poor. Cam gets frustrated with two talented freshman nipping at his heels. Loses focus and loses carries to a stud in Chaney. King isn’t good at read option and the run game is inconsistent regardless who carries the ball.

The situations shed light on to why things went the way it did. But this conversation has gone a long way from where it started.

Gus Edwards was a big back that ran like a scat back when we needed a short yardage guy to replace Dallas Crawford. He couldn’t do it so coaches soured on him and he never got the carries he should have. He got hurt and couldn’t take control of the running back room. His ypc declined and just never had that moment.

Richt saw something in Walton that made him choose Walton over Yearby and Edwards. In late 2016-early 2017, Walton showed why Richt made the right choice. Walton got hurt while starting to play his best football, so his numbers are skewed in comparison to comparable backs who played 3 full seasons. He struggled early, came on strong then it was over.

According to your numbers, Gus and Mark are about the same player in college. You are salty Richt chose Mark due to what you believe to be favoritism. I think Gus just fell behind recovering from his injury. Richt benched a 1000 back FROM SOUTH FLORIDA to play Walton. Injury prevented the full realization of his foresight.

They both became NFL starters, but Mark’s career got derailed by off field issues. Injuries and misadventure have made a fair comparison between the two nearly impossible.

With that I’m done with this conversation. You can come up with numbers to murder strawmen if you like, but someone law will have to engage you with that.
Click to expand...

I respect your opinion on everything - even if I see a different side of it.

I only show the numbers for people to maybe rethink how much context/situation affected things.

We all have the benefit of hindsight, and it's ok to rethink things.

- Look at the numbers above - Were each RB's situations were THAT much different that it caused THAT HUGE of a disparity?

After their Soph years - Walton had 56 carries at Miami, Gus had 59. Walton averaged 5.1 ypc at Miami, Gus averaged 5.3 ypc. Walton scored a TD every 15.1 carries, Gus every 15.5.

- So were Gus and Walton really THAT much different?

If I'm salty at Richt for anything - it's that in our 4 straight losses in 2016 he gave 64 carries to the RB who averaged 3.2 ypc (Walton) and only 38 carries to the RB averaging 6.2 ypc (Yearby).

For me - I look at the whole picture. If Walton was really good for 3 games late in 2016, it would only even out how bad he was in the 5 games right before those 3.

- So is it not OK to question some of Richt's decisions?

If in 2017 - Walton averages 2.5 ypc in the 2 P5 teams (when the backup averaged 10 ypc), then the 2 games where he averages 14 ypc vs Non-P5 doesn't really move the needle for me - even if it does for most. I'm gonna separate 2.5 vs 14 and not just look at the 7.6 total. That's just me.
 
Last edited:
Advertisement
Advertisement
Another player the staff that was there was failing. And you know what when you pointed out that it was coaching and development. They tell you how its because players are 2 star and the opponent got all these 5 stars. Be clear it does matter, the talent level but when we have alot of players that our opponents recruited and they cant function as a unit, please don't tell me its on the players. That's my thing.
 
Advertisement
Advertisement
Back
Top