Yup - Gus had all the advantages, while Walton had all the disadvantages. Sure.
That's Walton Whining 101. Let me know when you'd like to take the Master Class.
forums
GUS EDWARDS $$$$$
- Thread starter RangerGranger
- Start date
Yup - Gus had all the advantages, while Walton had all the disadvantages. Sure.
That's Walton Whining 101. Let me know when you'd like to take the Master Class.
Advertisement
TruCane81
Senior
- Joined
- May 9, 2019
- Messages
- 3,742
Walton was still the better college back.
Unfortunately his pro career got derailed so there is no way to make a good comparison.
Gus got into a good pro situation and got a second contract. Good for him.
That's totally fair - I just see it differently.
Walton being better than Gus in college is the popular opinion. My opinion was always they're close but I prefer Gus.
Yes, Walton missed 9 games due to injury in 3 years at Miami. Gus missed 20 games due to injury in his first 3 years.
Yes, Gus got to play his Senior year at Rutgers - but Rutgers was the worst Offense in college football that year. That's not really an advantage.
Fair that Walton's NFL career got cut short - but that was 100% his own doing. I have a hard time giving sympathy to a guy who's out of the league partly because he beat up his girlfriend multiple times.
Walton was awful on the Bengals for 1 year (before any of his legal troubles), and ok but nothing special on the Dolphins half a year. Starting 4 games on a team that also started Kalen Ballage 6 games and Patrick Laird 4 games in the same year isn't that impressive IMO.
I agree Gus landed in a good situation - but that also is way underselling his career.
Gus has had far from an easy road:
- Rookie - had to show out in the pre-season to make the team as a UDFA. Became the starter on a playoff team and ran for 700+ yds 5.0+ ypc.
- 2nd year - Ravens add 4th Rd RB Justice Hill and Pro-Bowl RB Mark Ingram for him to compete with, and he still ran for 700+ yds 5.0+ ypc.
- 3rd year - Ravens add 2nd Rd JK Dobbins for him to compete with (on top of Hill & Ingram), and Gus still ran for 700+ yds 5.0+ ypc.
Gus wasn't just "lucky". He's had to constantly compete with more talented RB's and still put up big numbers and had a major role on a playoff team for 3 straight years. That's impressive.
Last edited:
PlanoCane
Freshman
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2017
- Messages
- 1,075
A second contract better than Yearby and Walton combined. The bias is fr fr on here.
Last edited:
TruCane81
Senior
- Joined
- May 9, 2019
- Messages
- 3,742
Yep. The hatred some fans have of south Florida players is fr fr.
Who was even talking about Yearby? He had a 1000 yard season but he wasn’t in this conversation.
Walton was the better college back. Gus has had a better pro career. None of his supporters like to acknowledge he went to the perfect situation for a back that can’t give you anything in the passing game.
Gus had 700 yards in 12 games as a starter and less yards than the guy he replaced at Rutgers. I can’t for the life of me see what anyone saw he had IN COLLEGE other than not being from south Florida. It takes more than size and speed to be a good running back. Remember Trayone Gray?
No one has a better track record in recent years with running backs over Richt accept maybe Saban and Meyer. Richt chose Walton.
Advertisement
With the benefit of hindsight - a couple questions for you
Do you think Walton was really good in college? Or looking back, do you think he was overrated? Like - do you think Walton was much better than Gus in college and definitely should have been a high draft choice? Or do you think Walton was better than Gus, but just by a little bit?
Do you think it's fair to criticize some of Richt's decisions at Miami? Like - he obviously played favorites on the coaching staff keeping his son as QB coach who wasn't very good, right? Is it possible he might have also played favorite players who also weren't that good?
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2015
- Messages
- 16,301
Just give it up. Everything you’re saying, I already tried to explain but they don’t care. Mark Richt knows nothing about running backs and neither do the 32 teams who passed on Edwards in the draft. Maybe you could make a case for giving Edwards more carries in 2015 instead of freshman Walton who had a pretty poor season but in 2016, when Richt took over, Walton was the starter for a reason. Compare the game by game numbers in 2016. Funny thing is, Gus would have gotten a ton more carries if he’d stuck around for 2017.
2 questions for you:
Georgia Leading Rushers under Richt:
Group 1 - Todd Gurley, Nick Chubb, Sony Michel, Knowshon Moreno, Isaiah Crowell
Group 2 - Verron Haynes, Musa Smith, Michael Cooper, Kregg Lumpkin, Washaun Ealey, Thomas Brown (who started over Moreno)
1) Which group do you think Mark Walton falls into?
Take Richt out of it and go back to 2015:
Gus was out for the season but would've started. Look how much more playing time Walton got over Pre-ACL Trayone Gray
Walton - 129-450 yds - 3.5 ypc
Choc - 23-145 yds - 6.3 ypc
- The difference between them was 106-305 yds - 2.9 ypc
- Walton got 10+ carries in 10 games that year, and averaged 3.3 ypc or less in 7 of 10 games
2) Do you think the reason Walton got so many carries instead of Choc, despite Walton's continuous bad results, might have to do with the fact his old HS coach Ice Harris was the Miami RB coach at the time?
Walton played 22 games against Power 5 teams. He was good in 3. He was somewhere between ok and bad in 19.
But the 3 out of 22 good games came in a row - so for some reason he's judged just on those 3 instead of all 22.
The inability of the fanbase to see that Walton was an average RB who just happened to get hot for a couple games is equal parts amazing, confusing, and bizarre.
Advertisement
TruCane81
Senior
- Joined
- May 9, 2019
- Messages
- 3,742
Posts like these are why the quote of lies, ****, lies, and statistics exist. This is the use of numbers to make an argument at its most disingenuous.
Trayone Gray? Really? No wiggle, no vision Trayone? Go back and look at those game logs from 2015. Trayone had his worst numbers long after Harris left.
You destroyed your own arguments with YOUR OWN logic.
Just compare Walton 2017 to Edwards 2017. Walton is BY FAR the better back according to YOUR logic. 7.6ypc vs 4.3ypc.
So in Edwards 4 years of actual play vs Waltons 2.5 (excludes games missed for injury) all Edwards had to show was better short yardages numbers with a 40 pound weight advantage while playing 2 of his years with MUCH better offensive lines in 2013 and 2014.
What happened to Gus’ yards per carry as the offensive lines got worse? They declined. The only bias is your cherry picked numbers.
Thankfully, Gus found a good situation and found a way to make money with the size and speed he never used to win Miami football games in college.
Again - I'm fine if you think Walton is a better RB. I don't agree that Walton was MUCH better - and I don't agree with the lack of consistency in the arguments you're making.
Walton vs Choc
- You say I cherry pick stats, but then you say- "Go back and look at those game logs from 2015"
- Well - here's how their stats compared in the same games they played
- In the 5 games where they both got carries, Choc averaged a higher YPC in 4 of 5, and 2.6 ypc more overall
- In those 5 games, Walton had 30 more carries for 52 more yards - 1.7 ypc.
- In the 8 other games in 2015 where Walton got carries and Choc didn't, Walton ran for 76-253 yds - 3.3 ypc
I AM NOT SAYING Choc was better than Walton, even in 2015. And after 2015 Choc tore his ACL and was used as a FB, so can't really compare.
WHAT I AM SAYING is (just in 2015) - the gap between Walton & Choc wasn't so wide that Walton should've been given 100+ more carries than Choc. I'm saying if any RB averages 3.3 ypc or less in 10 of the 13 games he plays - he shouldn't be given 130 carries like Walton did in 2015.
So can you explain to me how "looking at the game logs from 2015" like you asked "destroys my own argument" according to you?
Walton vs Gus
- You say - "These numbers ain’t apples to apples. Gus racked up a lot of his stats in garbage time vs garbage teams. Mark started and carried during the toughest situations against the toughest competition"
- You say Gus had the advantage of playing "2 of his years with MUCH better offensive lines in 2013 and 2014"
- But then you say - "Just compare Walton 2017 to Edwards 2017. Walton is BY FAR the better back according to YOUR logic. 7.6ypc vs 4.3ypc"
Here's their game logs:
So when comparing Walton's 7.6 ypc vs Gus 4.3 ypc - how much are you factoring in the below?
- Walton played in the #60 Offense & Gus was in the #128 Offense
- 48% of Walton's carries came against Non-P5 teams & 14% of Gus's carries came against Non-P5
- Gus played 4 teams ranked in the Top 16 (5, 8, 15, 16) teams - 31% of his carries
- Gus played 5 defenses ranked in the top 17 (4 were in the Top 10 - 3, 7, 8, 9, 17) - 38% of his carries.
If you're saying Gus played behind better OL's and weaker opponents in 2013 & 2014 - then you also have to acknowledge and give context that Gus was playing behind a MUCH weaker OL and against MUCH stronger opponents in 2017 - right?
All I'm asking is you be consistent. If in 2017 Gus played on a much worse team than Walton ever did, and against a much harder schedule than Walton ever did - just acknowledge that is all.
Last edited:
TruCane81
Senior
- Joined
- May 9, 2019
- Messages
- 3,742
Go back and read the post more carefully. The point of the 2017 comparison was to show the logical flaw of the way you were using stats. That is not my argument.
I don’t like using stats to compare players because even when you try to narrow them down, they still lack a ton of context.
The eye test is subjective but stats lacking context are just as bad.
Gus got to Miami two years before Mark. With all that size and speed he couldn’t even take the back up job from Dallas Crawford. Put up his best ypc numbers 2013 and 2014. Then he got hurt 2015. In 2016, Richt chose Walton over Gus. Gus transferred 2017 and was very pedestrian at Rutgers.
Every starting back we have had since 2011 except Joe Yearby has played multiple seasons in the NFL. All those guys from Mike James, Mark Walton, Travis Homer, DJ Dallas, and now Cam, have been good to very good players. Duke and Lamar were SPECIAL.
Mark wasn’t special and we have a tendency to nitpick players who weren’t special. I thought we could have got more out of Gus, but his running style at his size turned people against him in college. He doesn’t even have a highlight tape outside the FAMU run. Now go watch Mark’s tape and reconcile yourself with appreciation.
Our lines have not been very good the last half decade or so, and it hurt all our backs against good competition, including Mark and Gus. They all still became NFL starters in most cases. I would have loved for Mark to put up better numbers in bigger games, but that’s a tough ask when you lose the line of scrimmage as consistently as we do.
Mark was the better college player. Gus was the better pro. No need to drag either through the mud.
The 2015 logs destroyed your argument because Trayone piled up the lion’s share of his yardage against inferior opponents. You criticized Mark for that and tried to prop up Trayone. If slowed down and read my posts more carefully, you will see I am consistent in my arguments.
You were the first to make the Walton vs Gus straight up in 2017 - not me. But when I did, it shows Walton was still no better vs P5 than Gus. Which is my whole point.
What I am comparing is their stats as a whole against P5 teams:
Vs P5
Walton - 283-1,081 yds, 3.8 ypc, 11 TD's - Scored a TD every 26 carries
Gus - 259-1,071 yds, 4.1 ypc, 10 TD's - Scored a TD every 26 carries
I am not trying to prop Gus up and bring Walton down. I'm simply showing against P5 trams in their career, their stats were very similar. When you say there's no context - you only want to show the context that goes against Gus.
When you want context:
- YOU DO WANT to talk about how 27% of those 259 carries for Gus came in 2013 & 2014 behind better OL's (which you've mentioned multiple times). You do want to talk about Gus played his Senior Year and Walton didn't. And those are all fair points.
- YOU DO NOT WANT to talk about how 54% of those 259 carries for Gus came in 2017 on Rutgers behind a much worse OL and against a much harder schedule (which you won't acknowledge)
I have a hard time seeing your "consistency" there, but would love for you to explain it so I can understand.
There are also numbers that don't need context.
When you say the difference between 230 lb Gus & 200 lb Mark Walton is 40 lbs - That's just wrong. Those numbers don't need context.
When you say Gus got more of his stats against bad teams, and Walton vs good teams - That's just wrong. Those numbers don't need context.
When you say the 2015 game logs for Walton & Choc prove Walton was much better - That's just wrong. No context needed.
Advertisement
TruCane81
Senior
- Joined
- May 9, 2019
- Messages
- 3,742
I didn’t bring up Rutgers because this conversation started about GUS AT MIAMI. I brought the 2017 ypc to show the flaw in the way you use numbers.
Most of Gus’ numbers AT MIAMI were spot duty and garbage time. Mark carried the starting load against starting caliber players. Don’t alter my words to find a straw man to knock down because you are losing the debate.
Mark was much better at Miami and had a better career in half the time. Don’t try to save face reaching for a hyperbole I used to describe their weight difference.
Mark got hurt and turned pro as he was coming into his own. Gus’ best was 700 yards as a bell cow. That’s pitiful regardless of competition. It’s good he took 5 years to barely accomplish what Mark did in 2 1/2. Well he came somewhat close,I guess as a 5th year senior. Naw not really.
Your take on Choc is completely wrong.
Here's the % of Carries, Yds, TD's in their career at JUST MIAMI cam against Non-P5, P5, Top 25 teams:
It's almost exactly the same - but you keep saying over and over how they're not.
This isn't about winning or losing an argument - the numbers just are what they are.
Also, when you say Gus was pedestrian at Rutgers in 2017 - can you at least acknowledge that Gus was playing behind a MUCH weaker OL and against MUCH stronger opponents?
Last edited:
TruCane81
Senior
- Joined
- May 9, 2019
- Messages
- 3,742
You still ain’t comprehending what you read. Let me quote myself in this clarifying statement from my last post.
“Most of Gus’ numbers at Miami were SPOT DUTY AND GARBAGE TIME. Mark carried the starting load against starting caliber players”.
You can drone on and on about p5 vs non p5, but regardless of game, he was playing against 2nd and 3rd team ers much more often than Mark. All back ups do. Lots of back ups have similar breakdowns. It doesn’t mean they were as good or better. When the back is actually better, they eventually get a shot to take control of the position. Gus never took control. He kept getting knocked down the depth chart by freshmen. Guys that are actually better have breakout years.
Your disingenuous stats don’t tell that story though.
But I am tired of this so let’s make a deal I will acknowledge Gus had a weaker offensive line at Rutgers if you acknowledge Gus did NOTHING at Miami to warrant the starting position.
Deal?
Advertisement
No I understand what you're saying, and I think it's definitely a fair point. But how do you quantify that, you know? Like - would you say getting 5 carries in the 4th quarter vs an 8 win team in is more of an advantage than getting 5 carries in the 1st half vs a 2 win team?
But your points keep neatly falling into the same "Gus had all the advantages, Walton had all the disadvantages" bucket, which is always filled with subjective non-quantifiable things. IMO saying Walton gets "nitpicked" while at the same time you're pointing out multiple things to discredit Gus isn't consistent.
I understand the whole "who started" thing, but isn't something I subscribe to. For example:
2010 - Damien Berry starts over Lamar Miller, but Miller averages 1.3 more ypc
2012 - Mike James starts over Duke Johnson, but Duke averages 2.4 more ypc
2013 - Dallas Crawford starts over Gus, but Gus averages 1.0 more ypc
2017 - Mark Walton starts over Travis Homer, but Homer was averaging 0.7 more ypc when Walton got hurt for the season
I don't think they averaged more ypc because they had the advantage of being the backup in easier situations - I think they were just the better RB.
For the Rutgers thing - you got so close. I asked if you could acknowledge Gus has a worse OL AND played a harder schedule. That's a layup - but you can't do it. You could only acknowledge worse OL. Can you acknowledge the harder schedule too?
To answer your question - again, I think the whole "this person is starting therefore they're better" thing isn't always a good argument. How many times (at any position) are you calling for the backup to get more playing time? Happens all the time.
So I won't say Gus did "nothing" to become the starter, but I wouldn't argue against someone saying he "hadn't done enough". Gus was going to start over Yearby & Walton in 2015 before he got hurt right before the season, but I wouldn't argue if someone thought Yearby should be the starter. And Gus didn't "take control" of starting position his first 2 years because he was behind Duke. And he didn't get knocked down the depth chart by any Freshman (Yearby got more carries in 2014 but he was the 3rd RB). Then Gus got hurt when it was his chance to start in 2015. And once Richt got here - there was nothing Gus, Yearby, Homer or Jesus himself could do to overcome Richt's love for Walton.
I would say Gus had done more to "earn" the starting position in 2015 than Walton had done to "earn" the starting position in 2016, wouldn't you agree? Richt gifted that spot to Walton.
Last edited:
TruCane81
Senior
- Joined
- May 9, 2019
- Messages
- 3,742
When the other backs you listed had higher ypc behind older backs, they took the starting position WITH NO QUESTION once their opportunity came. TRULY better backs take control as they get experience. You want to gloss over that, fine. It still speaks volumes to why Gus wasn’t successful here.
Granted Gus came off injury, but he didn’t do anything to say he should be starter in 2016. Mark still averaged .4 more yards per carry that season. Gus couldn’t take the job from Crawford because Crawford was our short yardage specialist and Gus never lived up to that role.
I won’t go into the Rutgers thing because it isn’t a fair comparison for Mark or Gus. I only mentioned it to point out the flaw in the way you use numbers that you still can’t see.
If you want to die on the hill that Mark got the job because Richt was playing favorites, fine. But Richt chose Walton over Yearby too. He made the right choice.
I always go to the eye test and use numbers combined with context to make conclusions. Football decisions will always be based on a mix of objectivity and subjectivity. Numbers in a vacuum are not as objective as people think, so you have to step back and look at the big picture.
I wish we could have got more out of Gus, but his style wasn’t a fit for our bro style offense and never allowed him to play to his full strengths. He found an offense that fits him in the league and has over 2000 yards in 3 seasons. Good. Cash those checks.
Yes, Richt chose Walton over Gus and Yearby. He would've chosen Walton over anyone no matter what. That's the point. Just look at the stats.
I've asked you 6 questions below. I put your over/under at 2 for answering them.
Going into 2016, here were their career stats:
Yearby - 291-1,511 yds - 5.2 ypc - 7 TD's
Gus - 127-687 yds - 5.4 ypc - 11 TD's
Walton - 129-450 yds - 3.5 ypc - 9 TD's (Yearby was 205-1,002 - 4.9 ypc -6 TD's in 2015)
BEAR IN MIND
Richt made Walton the starter the 1st the Spring practice and kept him the starter the whole way. Arrest, injury, poor play - didn't matter. Walton remained the starter from Day 1.
Richt recruited Walton but not Yearby & Gus
Walton was coming off one of the worst years ever. Walton, Charlie Jones, Javarris James, and Danyell Ferguson are the only Miami RB's to get over 50 carries in a season and average under 4 ypc in the last 25 years.
In the last 4 games of 2015:
Yearby - 62-283 yds - 4.6 ypc - 1 TD
Walton - 45-118 yds - 2.6 ypc - 3 TD
1) So at this point, do you think Walton "earned" to be named the starter before any spring practices?
OK - Let's say Walton "earned" the starting spot after Spring. And lets throw out his DUI/suspended license/impersonating an office arrest that summer.
Here's their stats through the first 7 games of 2016:
Yearby - 73-493 yds - 6.8 ypc - 6 TD
Walton - 112-604 yds - 5.4 ypc - 8 TD
BEAR IN MIND
At this point - Yearby averaged 1.4 ypc more than Walton in 2015, got demoted to 2nd string, and still averaged 1.4 ypc more than Walton the first half of 2016
In their last 14 games vs P5
Yearby - 202-940 yds - 4.7 ypc - 5 TD
Walton - 158-503 yds - 3.2 ypc - 5 TD
Walton averaged over 3.5 ypc in 2 of those 14 games. A streak of ineptitude that hasn't been matched before or since. Seriously.
Yearby averaged 4.5+ ypc in 8 of those 14 games.
In their last 8 games vs P5
Yearby - 100-520 yds - 5.2 ypc - 3 TD
Walton - 109-321 yds - 2.9 ypc - 4 TD
Walton averaged over 3.5 ypc in 0 of those 8 games, Yearby averages 4.5+ in 6 of 8
Walton gains 60+ yds in 1 of 8 games, Yearby gains 60+ yds in 5 of 8.
Walton gains more yds than Yearby in 1 of those 8 games.
In their last 4 games vs P5
Yearby - 38-237 yds - 6.2 ypc - 2 TD
Walton - 64-203 yds - 3.2 ypc - 1 TD
Walton averaged over 3.5 ypc in 0 of those 4 games, Yearby averages 6.5+ in 3 of 4
2) At this point, do you still think Walton had "earned" the starting spot over Yearby? Do you think it's at least "possible" Walton was just Richt's favorite?
So at this point, Yearby starts complaining to Richt about playing time because, ya know - those stats are pretty easy to interpret.
3) So for the next game, would you give Yearby more or less carries? Or would you do what Richt did - Start Gus, demote Yearby for complaining and use him in short yardage, still ride Walton as your workhorse to the tune of 18-45 yds 2.8 ypc?
Now why did Richt do that? I still have no idea. If you could tell me I'd love to know. BUT...let's NEVER question Mark Richt, right?
So here comes the next 3 games - Pitt, UVA, NC St - which is the basis and justification for any Walton defense
Yearby - 19-96 yds - 5.1 ypc - 1 TD
Walton - 49-356 yds - 7.3 ypc - 5 TD
I get it - Walton put up huge numbers in these games, and he outperformed Gus & Yearby by a WIDE margin.
I wish 2nd half NC St Walton was the one we got all the time instead of hardly ever.
BEAR IN MIND
After these 3 games Walton just went back to being Walton in his next 4 P5 games
Walton - 59-188 yds - 3.2 ypc - 0 TD
Homer - 8-81 yds - 10.1 ypc - 1 TD
Walton Finishes his career vs P5
First 15 games - 176-548 yds - 3.1 ypc - 6 TD
Next 3 games - 49-356 yds - 7.3 ypc - 5 TD
Last 4 games - 59-188 yds - 3.2 ypc - 0 TD
Walton averaged 3.5 ypc or less in 16 of 22 of those games, but somehow was given 10+ carries in 19 of the 22.
I honestly believe how hard it is to reach that level of opportunity + ineptitude is greatly underappreciated, and will never be matched.
4) Do you still think Ice Harris and Mark Richt playing favorites had absolutely 0% chance with the amount of opportunities Walton was given?
5) Do you think Waltons 3 good games justify everything, and it was the right call to make Walton the starter?
6) If you think Walton averaging 0.5 ypc more than Gus in 2016 is a good reason for Walton being better.....then could you also make the case that Yearby averaging 0.7 ypc more than Walton in 2016 and 1.4 ypc more in 2015 meant Yearby was better than Walton?
Last edited:
TruCane81
Senior
- Joined
- May 9, 2019
- Messages
- 3,742
This is better.
For the record, I didn’t like Yearby getting benched when it happened. I was more upset by his departure than Gus’. It worked out because Homer was a beast.
Walton had a poor freshman year in 2015, but he bounced.
Walton’s emergence at the end of 2016 changed my mind. That was what Richt saw from the beginning. Yearby was awesome moving the chains but he was slow.
Walton came out BEASTING in 2017 with two huge games. Duke sold out to stop the run so he only went 17 for 51 but he had almost 80 yards receiving. Florida State is always tough sledding and Mark got hurt and that was it for his college career.
The real culprit in this was Richt’s garbage offense. If you recall, we were losing games with Richt’s garbage, slow developing pass plays and snail tempo. When we quick passed and ran tempo we were much better.
We had three good backs and all of them should have eaten, but inconsistent line play and bad play calling and strategy killed that.
I don’t think it was favoritism. Walton was a Golden recruit. Yearby was slow and Gus fell behind in Richt’s offense. The timing of his injury didn’t help. By the end of 2016, I changed my mind and Walton was the guy. His play in 2017 confirmed it, then he got hurt.
These are all the answers you need. This ain’t a trial. I’m smart enough to recognize when someone is trying to lead me into a trap with loaded questions demanding yes and no answers. The context of these type situations is too nuanced for the rigidity of leading questions. You should have been a lawyer.
Advertisement