Footballs decline is correlated to the decline of UM Academics

[305_separatist]

And it’s not a coincidence. Now one doesn’t cause the other, not directly anyway. A successful football team is the best marketing for a school money can buy, which leads to more applications, greater selectivity etc.

But I think there’s a more direct hidden variable that connects the two in the specific case of this University. It’s an attitude of exclusivity and separation from the Miami-Dade community. Ivory tower syndrome if you will. A lack of inclusion.

On the football side, there’s tons of stories of how the relationship between the program and the various local high schools imploded over time. Golden wasn’t allowed to even visit some schools with his holier than thou attitude. Manny reversed any moderate gains Richt made in his first couple years with **** poor effort. The result has been other programs, especially out of state ones, setting up shop in SFL and filling the vacuum.

This has been almost perfectly mirrored on the academic side, which has been sliding for years. I am no expert in this area but in the 90s in particular, heading into the early 2000s, the school offered very generous financial aid packages for those who qualified academically. That attracted many top notch students (many of whom had their first impression via the football program) who in turn would help boost academics. In the last 10 years or so that has steeply declined, with a much larger percentage of the student population just being rich kids who want to go to school in Miami.

They might seem unrelated, but I think both are signs of the rot coming from the very top, the president and BOT, and their worldviews.

This school and everyone in it sees official affiliation as a status symbol, and as a result sees themselves as better than anyone else and too good to actually put in the work. And it leads to a vicious cycle where the perceived value of that status symbol has been plummeting as a result across the board as a function of the caliber of people you’re bringing in, and the cultural attitude they immediately get infected with and then help reinforce across the institution.

MTSU? Who? We’re way better than them **** that. USA rankings? That thing is a gimmick who even really cares or thinks X should be ranked ahead of us. Everyone is content to continue riding on the laurels of 20 years ago instead of putting in the work.

The longer that is kept up, the more we fall behind, because we refuse to look in the mirror and accept we totally suck right now.

TLDR: The culture problem is *deep* and goes way beyond just the football program. The university admin and BOT has been way too comfortable in their ivory tower and it’s infected every corner of the school. The University, from the top down, needs to take a long hard look in the mirror and get aggressive about rebuilding its relationships, image, it’s entire operations philosophy.

 

[Boarcane]

Didn’t read. All you need to post is, Donna Shalala is a piece of trash. The rest is implied

 

[cane1963]

So, how do you explain all the Ivy League schools? They have top notch academics and their players are generally pretty smart, but their football sucks. Maybe there really isn't any correlation between academics and football prowess.

 

[Boarcane]

So, how do you explain all the Ivy League schools? They have top notch academics and their players are generally pretty smart, but their football sucks. Maybe there really isn't any correlation between academics and football prowess.

USC, Notre Dame, Penn State and Michigan would like a moment of your time. I’m sure I’ve left off some easy ones too, that also outperform us in the classroom and on the football field.

 

[SpikeUM]

So, how do you explain all the Ivy League schools? They have top notch academics and their players are generally pretty smart, but their football sucks. Maybe there really isn't any correlation between academics and football prowess.

Because they play for participation trophies

 

[305_separatist]

So, how do you explain all the Ivy League schools? They have top notch academics and their players are generally pretty smart, but their football sucks. Maybe there really isn't any correlation between academics and football prowess.

The Ivy League schools are major outliers that simply don’t care much about athletics. They don’t even have athletic scholarships I think.

Further, I’m not saying one begets the other. I’m saying that in the specific case of UM, the reason they have both sucked has been the same underlying pompous attitude that’s clearly evident everywhere you look.

 

[Canedude08]

Whenever I think this board can't sink to new, irrational lows, someone finds a way to limbo under my insanely low expectations.

It's almost like you took multiple theories and just tied them together without any context, logic and facts be damned.

Say it with me, and say it out loud: OUR FOOTBALL PROGRAM AND OUR ACADEMIC STANDING HAVE LITTLE IF ANYTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER.

Let's look at a case study that directly challenges your inept theory. We're going to use Florida State University for this topic.

What does FSU have to do with this? Let me explain, FSU's football program has been a greasefire for most of the last 6 years. Yet, their academic standing has risen exponentially in the same time, despite there being little, if any increase in educational quality. Why? Because anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows that the USNWR rankings can be easily manipulated, because of the way they are calculated. In the middle of a huge fundraising drive? You get bonus rank points. You start playing games with admission yield to where you look more selective? Here's some rank points. The difference between the 35th and 80th ranked institutions isn't as large as one would believe, especially when one looks at the numbers. Miami has held steady since USNWR started changing the ranking criteria, while some other schools have risen, despite nothing materially changing at those schools.

Let's be transparent here, I'm not a huge fan of Dr. Frenk. I think he's a weak leader, a weak fundraiser and the faculty has made it clear that he isn't the most relatable or likable guy out there. You don't go from Dr. Shalala, who people loved(Outside of our dumbass fanbase), to a guy that most students and stakeholders couldn't recognize in a lineup. The BOT dropped the ball on that hire, because they hired someone to run the University that was best suited to run UHealth and the med school only.

Yes, the school stopped giving out as much merit aid, but let's also be honest about WHY they stopped. As Miami has become more and more selective, the cutoff for merit aid rose, and eventually it topped out. If Miami gave the same merit aid for kids as they gave when I first showed up for Undergrad, the average admitted student would be getting a package that less than 15% of the student body got almost 20 years ago. That's a lot of money, and honestly, the school wasn't willing to do that, if high achieving kids, that had the money to pay full freight actually wanted to come.

In the "SunTan U" days, you had mediocre kids, who paid full freight, while Miami filled out the class with high achieving kids of limited means(like myself). For the most part, kids that got fat FA packages didn't show up because of football(If that was the case, more kids would have shown up to football games, but guess what didn't happen), we showed up because 1)We could get a quality education for a fraction of the cost, and 2)It's Miami. Dr. Shalala and her staff were extremely aggressive in recruiting, the admissions office was active all across the country, they were EVERYWHERE during her tenure trying to get kids.

The Miami student body of today is different. They are still high achieving kids, the difference is that they can now afford to pay full freight, and the international contingent is significantly higher than even a decade ago. The issue becomes when you have kids that have little if any ties to the University, and views it as a transaction, nothing more. Kids like myself, who feel that being 'Canes changed our lives, view the University in a different light than a kid from China, that enjoys living in Miami, but once they get that degree will leave and likely never return. They don't care about college athletics, they don't care about anything other than paying their money, getting their degree and moving on. That's the big difference.

 

[cane1963]

USC, Notre Dame, Penn State and Michigan would like a moment of your time. I’m sure I’ve left off some easy ones too, that also outperform us in the classroom and on the football field.

I have no argument that those schools excel in both areas. Maybe it's the academic prowess of their recruits that makes a big difference. Could it be possible that recruiting academically smarter, yet highly ranked, players can be the difference?

 

[Boarcane]

I have no argument that those schools excel in both areas. Maybe it's the academic prowess of their recruits that makes a big difference. Could it be possible that recruiting academically smarter, yet highly ranked, players can be the difference?

Maybe we’ve had stupid administrators hiring stupid coaches. I have a TON of faith on Mario. We’ll be alright. Just takes a minute

 

[305_separatist]

Whenever I think this board can't sink to new, irrational lows, someone finds a way to limbo under my insanely low expectations.

It's almost like you took multiple theories and just tied them together without any context, logic and facts be damned.

Say it with me, and say it out loud: OUR FOOTBALL PROGRAM AND OUR ACADEMIC STANDING HAVE LITTLE IF ANYTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER.

Let's look at a case study that directly challenges your inept theory. We're going to use Florida State University for this topic.

What does FSU have to do with this? Let me explain, FSU's football program has been a greasefire for most of the last 6 years. Yet, their academic standing has risen exponentially in the same time, despite there being little, if any increase in educational quality. Why? Because anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows that the USNWR rankings can be easily manipulated, because of the way they are calculated. In the middle of a huge fundraising drive? You get bonus rank points. You start playing games with admission yield to where you look more selective? Here's some rank points. The difference between the 35th and 80th ranked institutions isn't as large as one would believe, especially when one looks at the numbers. Miami has held steady since USNWR started changing the ranking criteria, while some other schools have risen, despite nothing materially changing at those schools.

Let's be transparent here, I'm not a huge fan of Dr. Frenk. I think he's a weak leader, a weak fundraiser and the faculty has made it clear that he isn't the most relatable or likable guy out there. You don't go from Dr. Shalala, who people loved(Outside of our dumbass fanbase), to a guy that most students and stakeholders couldn't recognize in a lineup. The BOT dropped the ball on that hire, because they hired someone to run the University that was best suited to run UHealth and the med school only.

Yes, the school stopped giving out as much merit aid, but let's also be honest about WHY they stopped. As Miami has become more and more selective, the cutoff for merit aid rose, and eventually it topped out. If Miami gave the same merit aid for kids as they gave when I first showed up for Undergrad, the average admitted student would be getting a package that less than 15% of the student body got almost 20 years ago. That's a lot of money, and honestly, the school wasn't willing to do that, if high achieving kids, that had the money to pay full freight actually wanted to come.

In the "SunTan U" days, you had mediocre kids, who paid full freight, while Miami filled out the class with high achieving kids of limited means(like myself). For the most part, kids that got fat FA packages didn't show up because of football(If that was the case, more kids would have shown up to football games, but guess what didn't happen), we showed up because 1)We could get a quality education for a fraction of the cost, and 2)It's Miami. Dr. Shalala and her staff were extremely aggressive in recruiting, the admissions office was active all across the country, they were EVERYWHERE during her tenure trying to get kids.

The Miami student body of today is different. They are still high achieving kids, the difference is that they can now afford to pay full freight, and the international contingent is significantly higher than even a decade ago. The issue becomes when you have kids that have little if any ties to the University, and views it as a transaction, nothing more. Kids like myself, who feel that being 'Canes changed our lives, view the University in a different light than a kid from China, that enjoys living in Miami, but once they get that degree will leave and likely never return. They don't care about college athletics, they don't care about anything other than paying their money, getting their degree and moving on. That's the big difference.

You kind of made my own point for me in your last paragraph though. Making the investment in high achieving kids who aren’t able to pay in full has much higher long term dividends then just taking every random rich kid who can pay it in cash upfront. There’s a loyalty and buy in that gets built there. The new kids see it as a TRANSACTION. I think the exact same can be said of most of our recent recruiting classes. It’s a TRANSACTION to get to the NFL. That’s why so many also jump ship prematurely. There’s no passion for the school, it’s just a means to an end as a status symbol.

The school needs to start building and investing in relationships again and not just riding on those people who want to take advantage of its dwindling brand.

FSU is irrelevant to the discussion. There’s countless reasons why a schools football program or academics could be up or down at any given time. My point is that they are not *always* correlated, but in our specific case they are and I think due to this underlying hidden variable.

 

[AlexCane]

Whenever I think this board can't sink to new, irrational lows, someone finds a way to limbo under my insanely low expectations.

It's almost like you took multiple theories and just tied them together without any context, logic and facts be damned.

Say it with me, and say it out loud: OUR FOOTBALL PROGRAM AND OUR ACADEMIC STANDING HAVE LITTLE IF ANYTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER.

Let's look at a case study that directly challenges your inept theory. We're going to use Florida State University for this topic.

What does FSU have to do with this? Let me explain, FSU's football program has been a greasefire for most of the last 6 years. Yet, their academic standing has risen exponentially in the same time, despite there being little, if any increase in educational quality. Why? Because anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows that the USNWR rankings can be easily manipulated, because of the way they are calculated. In the middle of a huge fundraising drive? You get bonus rank points. You start playing games with admission yield to where you look more selective? Here's some rank points. The difference between the 35th and 80th ranked institutions isn't as large as one would believe, especially when one looks at the numbers. Miami has held steady since USNWR started changing the ranking criteria, while some other schools have risen, despite nothing materially changing at those schools.

Let's be transparent here, I'm not a huge fan of Dr. Frenk. I think he's a weak leader, a weak fundraiser and the faculty has made it clear that he isn't the most relatable or likable guy out there. You don't go from Dr. Shalala, who people loved(Outside of our dumbass fanbase), to a guy that most students and stakeholders couldn't recognize in a lineup. The BOT dropped the ball on that hire, because they hired someone to run the University that was best suited to run UHealth and the med school only.

Yes, the school stopped giving out as much merit aid, but let's also be honest about WHY they stopped. As Miami has become more and more selective, the cutoff for merit aid rose, and eventually it topped out. If Miami gave the same merit aid for kids as they gave when I first showed up for Undergrad, the average admitted student would be getting a package that less than 15% of the student body got almost 20 years ago. That's a lot of money, and honestly, the school wasn't willing to do that, if high achieving kids, that had the money to pay full freight actually wanted to come.

In the "SunTan U" days, you had mediocre kids, who paid full freight, while Miami filled out the class with high achieving kids of limited means(like myself). For the most part, kids that got fat FA packages didn't show up because of football(If that was the case, more kids would have shown up to football games, but guess what didn't happen), we showed up because 1)We could get a quality education for a fraction of the cost, and 2)It's Miami. Dr. Shalala and her staff were extremely aggressive in recruiting, the admissions office was active all across the country, they were EVERYWHERE during her tenure trying to get kids.

The Miami student body of today is different. They are still high achieving kids, the difference is that they can now afford to pay full freight, and the international contingent is significantly higher than even a decade ago. The issue becomes when you have kids that have little if any ties to the University, and views it as a transaction, nothing more. Kids like myself, who feel that being 'Canes changed our lives, view the University in a different light than a kid from China, that enjoys living in Miami, but once they get that degree will leave and likely never return. They don't care about college athletics, they don't care about anything other than paying their money, getting their degree and moving on. That's the big difference.

Good post overall, but I question the bolded. I was in school during '01. IIRC, UM saw an uptick of 30% in applications during that time. That means a better pool of qualified students. So, sports does or can help academics.

 

[305407cane]

Our decline is simple. No investment. No adjustment. Got complacent. Lazy hires after butch. Coker richt and manure were lazy. Golden was a cheap bad fit. Mario is on paper a good hire but he will sink or swim with his philosophy.

 

[Canedude08]

Good post overall, but I question the bolded. I was in school during '01. IIRC, UM saw an uptick of 30% in applications during that time. That means a better pool of qualified students. So, sports does or can help academics.

You get an increase of apps( same thing happens when you get a nice NCAAT run), but let's be honest here. If football success drove academics the way our fanbase believes, the SEC would be destroying the rankings. They aren't.

 

[NE Canes]

Interesting take. But I think you are off on this one.

Football can do perfectly fine without academics and academics can do just as well without football.

 

[Canedude08]

You kind of made my own point for me in your last paragraph though. Making the investment in high achieving kids who aren’t able to pay in full has much higher long term dividends then just taking every random rich kid who can pay it in cash upfront. There’s a loyalty and buy in that gets built there. The new kids see it as a TRANSACTION. I think the exact same can be said of most of our recent recruiting classes. It’s a TRANSACTION to get to the NFL. That’s why so many also jump ship prematurely. There’s no passion for the school, it’s just a means to an end as a status symbol.

The school needs to start building and investing in relationships again and not just riding on those people who want to take advantage of its dwindling brand.

FSU is irrelevant to the discussion. There’s countless reasons why a schools football program or academics could be up or down at any given time. My point is that they are not *always* correlated, but in our specific case they are and I think due to this underlying hidden variable.

Again, the concept of giving huge merit based financial aid packages to most of the student body, is financially irresponsible. Go look at most of our peer institutions, a lot of them don't give merit aid anymore. As a private institution, as you get more and more selective, you end up maxing out in regards to merit aid, because **** near everyone qualified.

Look at the Ivy League, you have to be POOR to get aid from the institution. There's a reason why. When you can easily admit a class full of valedictorians and kids with 1500+ SAT scores, it's insane to give everyone a full ride, even when you can afford it. Miami doesn't have a 10 billion+ endowment. Duke doesn't give the aid they once did, same with Stanford and a lot of other "Name Brand" private institutions.

College IN GENERAL has become a transaction, especially as kids have come to realize that going into debt just to say you went somewhere is a bit silly. The schools that don't have this problem are state institutions, because they are part of the community. Alabama doesn't have this problem because they represent an entire state, kids go there because it's their state school.

 

[Gi0logy]

F*ck it. Let's go full public institution.

50k enrollment by 2030.

That'll help fill up our 100k capacity future near-campus stadium which will be located on Biltmore's golf course.

 

[ssvir]

You get an increase of apps( same thing happens when you get a nice NCAAT run), but let's be honest here. If football success drove academics the way our fanbase believes, the SEC would be destroying the rankings. They aren't.

Not so fast my friend. The academic status of Bama, Auburn, and Georgia have risen substantially in recent years .... just like it has for Clemson.

 

[Empirical Cane]

Maybe we’ve had stupid administrators hiring stupid coaches. I have a TON of faith on Mario. We’ll be alright. Just takes a minute

Miami is doomed.
We are doomed.
Abandon all hope.

 

[Canedude08]

Not so fast my friend. The academic status of Bama, Auburn, and Georgia have risen substantially in recent years .... just like it has for Clemson.

You really think football had something to do with it, or the fact that all state schools have directly benefited from a changing consumer culture in regards to higher education.

 

[3GC]

And it’s not a coincidence. Now one doesn’t cause the other, not directly anyway. A successful football team is the best marketing for a school money can buy, which leads to more applications, greater selectivity etc.

But I think there’s a more direct hidden variable that connects the two in the specific case of this University. It’s an attitude of exclusivity and separation from the Miami-Dade community. Ivory tower syndrome if you will. A lack of inclusion.

On the football side, there’s tons of stories of how the relationship between the program and the various local high schools imploded over time. Golden wasn’t allowed to even visit some schools with his holier than thou attitude. Manny reversed any moderate gains Richt made in his first couple years with **** poor effort. The result has been other programs, especially out of state ones, setting up shop in SFL and filling the vacuum.

This has been almost perfectly mirrored on the academic side, which has been sliding for years. I am no expert in this area but in the 90s in particular, heading into the early 2000s, the school offered very generous financial aid packages for those who qualified academically. That attracted many top notch students (many of whom had their first impression via the football program) who in turn would help boost academics. In the last 10 years or so that has steeply declined, with a much larger percentage of the student population just being rich kids who want to go to school in Miami.

They might seem unrelated, but I think both are signs of the rot coming from the very top, the president and BOT, and their worldviews.

This school and everyone in it sees official affiliation as a status symbol, and as a result sees themselves as better than anyone else and too good to actually put in the work. And it leads to a vicious cycle where the perceived value of that status symbol has been plummeting as a result across the board as a function of the caliber of people you’re bringing in, and the cultural attitude they immediately get infected with and then help reinforce across the institution.

MTSU? Who? We’re way better than them **** that. USA rankings? That thing is a gimmick who even really cares or thinks X should be ranked ahead of us. Everyone is content to continue riding on the laurels of 20 years ago instead of putting in the work.

The longer that is kept up, the more we fall behind, because we refuse to look in the mirror and accept we totally suck right now.

TLDR: The culture problem is *deep* and goes way beyond just the football program. The university admin and BOT has been way too comfortable in their ivory tower and it’s infected every corner of the school. The University, from the top down, needs to take a long hard look in the mirror and get aggressive about rebuilding its relationships, image, it’s entire operations philosophy.

Nothing beats Brains..