Finally Admit Lanning > Mario

[cway313]

 

[RVACane]

I'm not mixing things up, I just don't call NORMAL GRADUATION a "roster flip".

17 players went into the Portal.

That means 31 players graduated.

We can agree to disagree, but I don't call that a roster flip. That's just college life, particularly after the COVID year, when you had a bunch of guys who should have graduated in 2020 getting one additional year and leaving the team after 2021 instead of 2020.

Also, don't conflate what I said with what other people said. I did not say Mario "inherited an empty cupboard". As we know, famously, ONE player got pushed out by Mario. But the culture was ****. The talent, as developed (or lack thereof) was ****.

I get what you are saying about the "ranking" of the talent, but it's like the difference between purchasing a beautiful bunch of bananas from Publix...and then trying to eat those bananas three weeks later.

Again, I don't know why people gloss over this point, but we had players living in BROWARD COUNTY. The whole system of discipline and culture and accountability was terrible under Manny. I'm not blaming specific 2022 scores and outcomes on Manny, but Mario was not starting out with the same level of talent at Miami that he left behind at Oregon.

Finally, the reason for the differential in "what someone started with or inherited" is not merely the roster, per se. More importantly, for multiple years, Miami and Mario had to pay the "suck tax" in order to recruit the best talent, something that Oregon has not had to do under Lanning. That's just a reality, and it's the reason why the next F$U head corch will not be able to win right away, no matter how many guys he flips off of Prison Mike's roster.

And I award you full points for the Kinison "Back to School" reference...

We’re arguing terminology, and I already agreed that “flip” was imprecise. I called it roster turnover and specifically said Lanning did not personally push 40% of the roster out.

But your original claim that the 40% figure came from the 34 portal exits after Lanning’s first season was still incorrect. The official rosters show 39% turnover before his first season.

Also, subtracting 17 portal exits from 48 total departures does not prove the other 31 all graduated. That group would also include players who ran out of eligibility, went to the NFL, retired or left for other reasons.

I agree that Oregon was the better starting point. Where I disagree is using “culture” as a catch-all excuse for our results. Manny had a bad culture at UM compared to Mario at Oregon but UM had the No. 12 talent composite, we started ranked at 16 and Mario brought in 53 newcomers.

If Manny’s players sucked ok but he still won 7 games with them. . Mario restocked the shelf and won 5. At some point the new coach owns the results.

The criticisms of Mario in years one and two were quite appropriate given the performance on the field, the coaching gaffs, and the staff staph hires… whatever. But a few slurper bros want to keep starting crap and I’m going to start going after them to end it.

 

[Alex_Dynamix]

Lanning not only inherited a bunch of talent, he inherited a team with winning culture. Mario inherited a team where guys were dancing on the sidelines while getting blown out. Miami was a complete tear down and rebuild job. Lanning didn't have to do that. He was given a Ferrari and all he had to do was keep the oil changed, lol

Middle tennesee was bad but we lost to ******* FIU under Manny and had players dancing on the sidelines while doing it. IDK how in the world a mf thought Mario was gonna walk in to a ****show like that and win immediately it was veryyy BADDDDDD here culture wise i saw it first hand. There were talented guys on the roster but they weren't serious about winning football games

 

[Pearson704]

My response acknowledges that Lanning came into a better situation at Oregon than Mario did at Miami, and that he flipped 40% of the roster right off the bat. By your logic, then Mario completely failed in year 1 because he took Manny’s 7-5 roster, flipped close to the same amount as Lanning and immediately went 5-7.

Therefore, the criticism was plenty warranted in years 1 and 2.

This concept negates the talent-level, culture, and trajectory of each program at point zero.

Mario left Lanning a highly-competitive, conference championship program with a rock-solid foundation to build upon. The Miami program Mario inherited was barely .500 for several consecutive seasons, had lost to FIU, and allowed UNC to rush for over 550 yards in a single game.

The 5-7 from Mario in year 1 is reflective of the deeper structural rot he inherited, and that the 60% wasn't worth keeping.

 

[RVACane]

Middle tennesee was bad but we lost to ******* FIU under Manny and had players dancing on the sidelines while doing it. IDK how in the world a mf thought Mario was gonna walk in to a ****show like that and win immediately it was veryyy BADDDDDD here culture wise i saw it first hand. There were talented guys on the roster but they weren't serious about winning football games

Because Manny won 7 games and people thought Mario would at least do that including an MTSU win not loss. He had what 247 said was the 12th most talented roster in that year so people thought he’d at least get wins commensurate with the talent he had per 247.

 

[RVACane]

This concept negates the talent-level, culture, and trajectory of each program at point zero.

Mario left Lanning a highly-competitive, conference championship program with a rock-solid foundation to build upon. The Miami program Mario inherited was barely .500 for several consecutive seasons, had lost to FIU, and allowed UNC to rush for over 550 yards in a single game.

The 5-7 from Mario in year 1 is reflective of the deeper structural rot he inherited, and that the 60% wasn't worth keeping.

If trajectory at point zero matters, why are you citing the 2019 FIU game and the 2020 UNC game while ignoring what happened immediately before Mario arrived?

Miami finished 2021 by winning five of its final six games, including wins over ranked NC State and Pitt. TVD threw for at least 300 yards and three touchdowns in six straight games. That was the actual trajectory at point zero.

I acknowledge that the program was far from perfect and that Lanning came into a better situation at Oregon than Mario did at UM, however, describing UM as structurally rotten and claiming 60% of the roster was not worth keeping is a subjective, after-the-fact explanation for why Mario took a 7–5 team, replaced roughly 40% of its roster and went 5–7.

If 60% was not worth keeping and Mario replaced most of the rest, that makes the 5–7 result more deserving of criticism, not less.

 

[Alex_Dynamix]

Because Manny won 7 games and people thought Mario would at least do that including an MTSU win not loss. He had what 247 said was the 12 most talented roster in that year so people thought he’d at least get win’s commensurate with the talent he ha per 247.

I used to think it was just the talent but looking back the Culture was just as bad if not worse.. our starting QB was high asf and hungover from getting wasted the night b4 the FIU game.. now ask yourself how many if any of our QBs under Mario had the same approach to gameday/gameweek.. It might sound like cap but when we lost to FIU i wasn't overly surprised half the team was out partying the night b4. it is what it is..that being said Mario made some rightly critical mistakes during his rebuild but he came out a better coach on the other side..

 

[RVACane]

I used to think it was just the talent but looking back the Culture was just as bad if not worse.. our starting QB was high asf and hungover from getting wasted the night b4 the FIU game.. now ask yourself how many if any of our QBs under Mario had the same approach to gameday/gameweek.. It might sound like cap but when we lost to FIU i wasn't overly surprised half the team was out partying the night b4. it is what it is..that being said Mario made some rightly critical mistakes during his rebuild but he came out a better coach on the other side..

Very reasonable post. You acknowledge the situation fairly - Manny left cultural issues and Mario underperformed with some things on the first two seasons. Mario had a tougher situation to start for certain. Golden had the roughest situation over the last 25 years.

I’m fine with him. He got us where I wanted to be at a minimum - we’re a competitive respected program again - and then some. Mario earned the accolades he got last season.

 

[Orig.CaneSawMassacre]

Love Mario but let's be real. Ward bailed us out of at least 2 games we should have won easily. We lost 2 games last year as the better team.

It will happen this year. Guessing either next week or VT.

Someone still doesn’t believe. If you don’t see the difference in the man since those losses last year and how he is operating I don’t know what to tell you!

 

[Orig.CaneSawMassacre]

It was eaten repeatedly by a number of those people, myself included, however the dead horse beater super mariobro slurpers can’t help but try to reignite the fighting again. They were wrong by the way. The first two years wreaked of failure and incompetence. The next two years changed that 180.

Where is all of that talent he was left at in the NFL right now?

 

[RVACane]

Someone still doesn’t believe. If you don’t see the difference in the man since those losses last year and how he is operating I don’t know what to tell you!

I agree with you overall. Mario improved significantly. Great coaching assistants certainly helped but he hired them. He’s worked hard to fix the corch issues. I agree with the premise from @ajkreider that there’s a history of losing games he shouldn’t - but but but even that’s getting better. An occasional bad game is par for the course.

Mario’s done a great job at this point, regardless. When was the last time someone blew us out???

 

[RVACane]

Where is all of that talent he was left at in the NFL right now?

Read the rest of the thread.

 

[Orig.CaneSawMassacre]

View attachment 376129

You’re mixing up portal exits with total roster turnover. Only 17 entered the portal during the transition, but 48 of the 123 players on Oregon’s 2021 roster were gone by Lanning’s first season, which is 39%.

Also, 52 players on Lanning’s 127-man roster were newcomers, which is about 41%. The 34 portal exits after his first season were a separate event. Saying Lanning personally pushed out 40% would be wrong, but the roughly 40% roster turnover in Year 1 is still accurate.

Again, nobody is claiming Lanning and Mario inherited identical situations. Oregon was coming off a 10-4 season with the No. 9 talent composite, while Miami was 7-5 and ranked No. 13. Oregon was clearly the better starting point.

But the idea that Mario inherited an empty cupboard is nonsense. His first Miami roster still ranked No. 12 nationally in talent, started the season ranked No. 16 and returned TVD - yes remember Mario called him the best QB in the country??? Going 5-7, including home losses of 45-31 to Middle Tennessee and 45-21 to Duke, cannot simply be blamed on Manolo.

Lanning inherited the better situation, but he also did considerably more with it. Both things can be true.

The over valuation of Manny’s overall talent is baffling…

 

[Orig.CaneSawMassacre]

Read the rest of the thread.

I did I think that talent rating is absurd! That is why I’m saying the proof is what was drafted that year.

his talent level and the cumulative stench Manny left was unmatched!

I don’t want to run this over though. I admit he failed with the coordinators and game time management at first, but to even insinuate the situation was remotely close to the program Lanning had in place and to compare them at the time was-is asinine!

 

[RVACane]

The over valuation of Manny’s overall talent is baffling…

I’m not overvaluing Manny’s talent. That was 247’s valuation, not mine. Mario’s first roster ranked 12th nationally, began the season ranked 16th and won two fewer games than Manny’s previous team. My point isn’t that Manny built an elite roster. It’s that the roster wasn’t remotely bad enough to excuse going 5-7.

 

[RVACane]

I did I think that talent rating is absurd! That is why I’m saying the proof is what was drafted that year.

his talent level and the cumulative stench Manny left was unmatched!

I don’t want to run this over though. I admit he failed with the coordinators and game time management at first, but to even insinuate the situation was remotely close to the program Lanning had in place and to compare them at the time was-is asinine!

I never said the situations were equal. Lanning inherited the better program, but Miami still had enough talent that 5-7 was a failure, especially after Manny went 7-5. Both things can be true.