2024 DL Kamarion Franklin

[JHallCanes]

Definitive statements from Gaby will never happen. He'll be old on his death bed one day and he's gonna be, " I may or may not make it, 50/50 shot I'd say ".

@RVACane we have another POTY candidate

 

[WeBallinBoyz]

The funny part is that we are right on schedule, actually slightly ahead of schedule from last year. Riley(RB) committed 10 days before Ray Ray committed this time last year when our run of commits started. Before that we had a bunch of 3 stars outside of Robby.

I’ve been thinking about this the past few days. You and I have certainly been on the same page in terms of expecting fireworks all July. But I must admit…the clock is ticking, and I believe the parameters have changed.

I posted in some other thread regarding the amount of players that have already committed to a school for the 2024 class. I’m not sure if the numbers were similar to last season, but in terms of elite blue chippers, here’s how many are “locked up” in the most updated version.

21 of the top 50 are committed (42%)
52 of the top 100 are committed (52%)
76 of the top 150 are committed (50.6%)
107 of the top 200 are committed (53.5%)
139 of the top 247 are committed (56.2%)

Moreover, I counted nine more players inside the top247 that have a set commitment date between now and July 7th. That is 60% of blue chips, and that’s not even counting the guys that pop without a set date for any particular program. I mean - we should also expect guys to commit by then. If our class sits in a similar range by that date…then it’s time to start questioning what our approach is here.

If the numbers shook out similarly to 2023’s overall class, then I stand corrected…but it seems like there are way more summer commits this time around.

Now of course guys are going to get flipped, and I reckon we will have plenty of those. But…when Francis committed to the good guys on July 4th, we had the #8 class in the country. When Malik committed late July, we were #7 but tenths away from inside the top 5, sliding in at 4. #4 and #7 were separated by .2, and I believe Kinsler pushed us over into that top 5 range moments later.

I think I say this because I’m excited, and yet apprehensive considering July 1st is this upcoming Saturday. It would take a run that topped last year’s to enter the top 8 imo, and there are plenty of schools (like us) that haven’t kicked it into overdrive yet. Those include…

#10 Tennessee - 14 commits (9 four-stars, 5 three-stars)
#11 USC - 12 commits (9 four-stars, 3 3-stars)
#12 Clemson - 12 commits (2 five-stars, 8-four stars, 2 3-stars)
#13 SCar - 12 commits (8 four-stars, 4 3-stars)
#27 Alabama - 8 commits (3 5-stars, 4 4-stars, 1 3-star)
#28 Miami - 12 commits (3 4-stars, 9 3-stars)
#29 Texas A&M - 10 commits (6 4-stars, 4 3-stars)
#39 Auburn - 8 commits (6 4-stars, 2 3-stars)
#41 Oklahoma - 8 commits (5 4-stars, 3 3-stars)
#55 Texas - 6 commits (4 4-stars, 2 3-stars)

I didn’t even mention FSU (11 commits), because if they finish above us in recruiting, I’ll eat a shoe.

No offense to these kids, but the Ryan Mack’s and Barney’s aren’t going to cause most to jump for joy. And yes, that is certainly not Mario’s job regarding star hunting and appeasing message board lunatics…but we’ve got to start landing some of these upper-echelon players ALL MONTH LONG if we aspire to be a top recruiting juggernaut everyone here has pegged us as. It can’t be only our kids that want to drag out the process. That seems silly and naïve.

Anyways, that’s my mini star-***** rant for the day…cheers to the entirety of July being a recruiting month for the ages.

 

[JHallCanes]

I’ve been thinking about this the past few days. You and I have certainly been on the same page in terms of expecting fireworks all July. But I must admit…the clock is ticking, and I believe the parameters have changed.

I posted in some other thread regarding the amount of players that have already committed to a school for the 2024 class. I’m not sure if the numbers were similar to last season, but in terms of elite blue chippers, here’s how many are “locked up” in the most updated version.

21 of the top 50 are committed (42%)
52 of the top 100 are committed (52%)
76 of the top 150 are committed (50.6%)
107 of the top 200 are committed (53.5%)
139 of the top 247 are committed (56.2%)

Moreover, I counted nine more players inside the top247 that have a set commitment date between now and July 7th. That is 60% of blue chips, and that’s not even counting the guys that pop without a set date for any particular program. I mean - we should also expect guys to commit by then. If our class sits in a similar range by that date…then it’s time to start questioning what our approach is here.

If the numbers shook out similarly to 2023’s overall class, then I stand corrected…but it seems like there are way more summer commits this time around.

Now of course guys are going to get flipped, and I reckon we will have plenty of those. But…when Francis committed to the good guys on July 4th, we had the #8 class in the country. When Malik committed late July, we were #7 but tenths away from inside the top 5, sliding in at 4. #4 and #7 were separated by .2, and I believe Kinsler pushed us over into that top 5 range moments later.

I think I say this because I’m excited, and yet apprehensive considering July 1st is this upcoming Saturday. It would take a run that topped last year’s to enter the top 8 imo, and there are plenty of schools (like us) that haven’t kicked it into overdrive yet. Those include…

#10 Tennessee - 14 commits (9 four-stars, 5 three-stars)
#11 USC - 12 commits (9 four-stars, 3 3-stars)
#12 Clemson - 12 commits (2 five-stars, 8-four stars, 2 3-stars)
#13 SCar - 12 commits (8 four-stars, 4 3-stars)
#27 Alabama - 8 commits (3 5-stars, 4 4-stars, 1 3-star)
#28 Miami - 12 commits (3 4-stars, 9 3-stars)
#29 Texas A&M - 10 commits (6 4-stars, 4 3-stars)
#39 Auburn - 8 commits (6 4-stars, 2 3-stars)
#41 Oklahoma - 8 commits (5 4-stars, 3 3-stars)
#55 Texas - 6 commits (4 4-stars, 2 3-stars)

I didn’t even mention FSU (11 commits), because if they finish above us in recruiting, I’ll eat a shoe.

No offense to these kids, but the Ryan Mack’s and Barney’s aren’t going to cause most to jump for joy. And yes, that is certainly not Mario’s job…but we’ve got to start landing some of these upper-echelon players ALL MONTH LONG. It can’t be only our kids that want to drag out the process. That seems silly and naïve.

Anyways, that’s my mini star-***** rant for the day…cheers to all July being a recruiting month for the ages.

I have always had the July-August time frame in my mind only because looking at the guys we were in play for many had multiple visits stretching through the end of June. Stands to reason guys at that level are going to go back and regroup, let the final schools know they can up their bag, set announcement dates etc

Plus I think once one commits, whether it’s us or not, that will set some things in motion. Kids definitely keeping an eye on eachother

 

[Highline17]

I’ve been thinking about this the past few days. You and I have certainly been on the same page in terms of expecting fireworks all July. But I must admit…the clock is ticking, and I believe the parameters have changed.

I posted in some other thread regarding the amount of players that have already committed to a school for the 2024 class. I’m not sure if the numbers were similar to last season, but in terms of elite blue chippers, here’s how many are “locked up” in the most updated version.

21 of the top 50 are committed (42%)
52 of the top 100 are committed (52%)
76 of the top 150 are committed (50.6%)
107 of the top 200 are committed (53.5%)
139 of the top 247 are committed (56.2%)

Moreover, I counted nine more players inside the top247 that have a set commitment date between now and July 7th. That is 60% of blue chips, and that’s not even counting the guys that pop without a set date for any particular program. I mean - we should also expect guys to commit by then. If our class sits in a similar range by that date…then it’s time to start questioning what our approach is here.

If the numbers shook out similarly to 2023’s overall class, then I stand corrected…but it seems like there are way more summer commits this time around.

Now of course guys are going to get flipped, and I reckon we will have plenty of those. But…when Francis committed to the good guys on July 4th, we had the #8 class in the country. When Malik committed late July, we were #7 but tenths away from inside the top 5, sliding in at 4. #4 and #7 were separated by .2, and I believe Kinsler pushed us over into that top 5 range moments later.

I think I say this because I’m excited, and yet apprehensive considering July 1st is this upcoming Saturday. It would take a run that topped last year’s to enter the top 8 imo, and there are plenty of schools (like us) that haven’t kicked it into overdrive yet. Those include…

#10 Tennessee - 14 commits (9 four-stars, 5 three-stars)
#11 USC - 12 commits (9 four-stars, 3 3-stars)
#12 Clemson - 12 commits (2 five-stars, 8-four stars, 2 3-stars)
#13 SCar - 12 commits (8 four-stars, 4 3-stars)
#27 Alabama - 8 commits (3 5-stars, 4 4-stars, 1 3-star)
#28 Miami - 12 commits (3 4-stars, 9 3-stars)
#29 Texas A&M - 10 commits (6 4-stars, 4 3-stars)
#39 Auburn - 8 commits (6 4-stars, 2 3-stars)
#41 Oklahoma - 8 commits (5 4-stars, 3 3-stars)
#55 Texas - 6 commits (4 4-stars, 2 3-stars)

I didn’t even mention FSU (11 commits), because if they finish above us in recruiting, I’ll eat a shoe.

No offense to these kids, but the Ryan Mack’s and Barney’s aren’t going to cause most to jump for joy. And yes, that is certainly not Mario’s job regarding star hunting and appeasing message board lunatics…but we’ve got to start landing some of these upper-echelon players ALL MONTH LONG if we aspire to be a top recruiting juggernaut everyone here has pegged us as. It can’t be only our kids that want to drag out the process. That seems silly and naïve.

Anyways, that’s my mini star-***** rant for the day…cheers to the entirety of July being a recruiting month for the ages.

Just a question do we have the numbers on percentage of “locked up” players that stayed with their commitment of this time last year?

 

[WeBallinBoyz]

Just a question do we have the numbers on percentage of “locked up” players that stayed with their commitment of this time last year?

Good question, that would take some time but I was curious about this too regarding kids committing between idk…May and August? I’ll get to work on that.

 

[TOcane]

Good question, that would take some time but I was curious about this too regarding kids committing between idk…May and August? I’ll get to work on that.

Pate said summer commits actually stuck around a 90% clip so it’s important.( I could be a little high on the number but I know it was unexpectedly high.)

 

[WeBallinBoyz]

Pate said summer commits actually stuck around a 90% clip so it’s important.( I could be a little high on the number but I know it was unexpectedly high.)

Yup, I remember that.

 

[TOcane]

Yup, I remember that.

Now the month he didn’t say was June so the gators are screwed.

 

[bobbydigius]

I’ve been thinking about this the past few days. You and I have certainly been on the same page in terms of expecting fireworks all July. But I must admit…the clock is ticking, and I believe the parameters have changed.

I posted in some other thread regarding the amount of players that have already committed to a school for the 2024 class. I’m not sure if the numbers were similar to last season, but in terms of elite blue chippers, here’s how many are “locked up” in the most updated version.

21 of the top 50 are committed (42%)
52 of the top 100 are committed (52%)
76 of the top 150 are committed (50.6%)
107 of the top 200 are committed (53.5%)
139 of the top 247 are committed (56.2%)

Moreover, I counted nine more players inside the top247 that have a set commitment date between now and July 7th. That is 60% of blue chips, and that’s not even counting the guys that pop without a set date for any particular program. I mean - we should also expect guys to commit by then. If our class sits in a similar range by that date…then it’s time to start questioning what our approach is here.

If the numbers shook out similarly to 2023’s overall class, then I stand corrected…but it seems like there are way more summer commits this time around.

Now of course guys are going to get flipped, and I reckon we will have plenty of those. But…when Francis committed to the good guys on July 4th, we had the #8 class in the country. When Malik committed late July, we were #7 but tenths away from inside the top 5, sliding in at 4. #4 and #7 were separated by .2, and I believe Kinsler pushed us over into that top 5 range moments later.

I think I say this because I’m excited, and yet apprehensive considering July 1st is this upcoming Saturday. It would take a run that topped last year’s to enter the top 8 imo, and there are plenty of schools (like us) that haven’t kicked it into overdrive yet. Those include…

#10 Tennessee - 14 commits (9 four-stars, 5 three-stars)
#11 USC - 12 commits (9 four-stars, 3 3-stars)
#12 Clemson - 12 commits (2 five-stars, 8-four stars, 2 3-stars)
#13 SCar - 12 commits (8 four-stars, 4 3-stars)
#27 Alabama - 8 commits (3 5-stars, 4 4-stars, 1 3-star)
#28 Miami - 12 commits (3 4-stars, 9 3-stars)
#29 Texas A&M - 10 commits (6 4-stars, 4 3-stars)
#39 Auburn - 8 commits (6 4-stars, 2 3-stars)
#41 Oklahoma - 8 commits (5 4-stars, 3 3-stars)
#55 Texas - 6 commits (4 4-stars, 2 3-stars)

I didn’t even mention FSU (11 commits), because if they finish above us in recruiting, I’ll eat a shoe.

No offense to these kids, but the Ryan Mack’s and Barney’s aren’t going to cause most to jump for joy. And yes, that is certainly not Mario’s job regarding star hunting and appeasing message board lunatics…but we’ve got to start landing some of these upper-echelon players ALL MONTH LONG if we aspire to be a top recruiting juggernaut everyone here has pegged us as. It can’t be only our kids that want to drag out the process. That seems silly and naïve.

Anyways, that’s my mini star-***** rant for the day…cheers to the entirety of July being a recruiting month for the ages.

Great post. I remember Cribby speaking about how he was very surprised to see the summer unfold last year and how many kids ended up shutting things down in the summer. Most surmised that with NIL, kids would stretch things out and leverage for more money. It played out the exact opposite though. Kids were made to realize that there was a finite amount of money each school had, and if you were serious it was best to lock in your bag and be ready to start getting paid your senior year if the grey area allowed or when you signed and enrolled early. Kids needed to get their academics in order because graduating meant you were getting paid. I believe this has been accelerated even more this year based on your post.

I believe that acceleration is being felt even more with UF compiling the class they have now. Last year FSU and UF were utterly getting shunned by everyone, it was looking rather bleak. FSU is better than they were last year but still meh but UF is doing the **** thing now. Dont even want to go in further on the why and what will happen with UF but they are doing well. Our issue right now is that even though the staff loves the guys we have, our ratio aint great. Good news is that I believe that CWH, Pruitt and Day will eventually be upgraded. I think the rest stay as 3s. At the end of the day recruiting for us fans is about bragging rights and we want to see some fireworks so we can shut up the inbred lizards up north. We dont just need a run of commits we really need the top level guys, Riley was one of those guys but we need 3-4 more at the very least soon enough. Like you said, both you and I are betting on that happening but its hard watching all these other schools raking them in. Good news is that we have Mario and recruiting is the one thing he with out question excels at, we will finish with a top 10 class when its said and done, unless we go 5-7 again.

 

[SWFLHurricane]

Great post. I remember Cribby speaking about how he was very surprised to see the summer unfold last year and how many kids ended up shutting things down in the summer. Most surmised that with NIL kids would stretch things out and leverage for more money. It played out the exact opposite though. Kids were made to realize that there was a finite amount of money each school had and if you were serious it was best to lock in your bag and be ready to start getting paid your senior year if the grey area allowed or when you signed and enrolled early. Kids needed to get their **** in order and in many cases get their academics in order because graduating meant you were getting paid. I believe this has been accelerated even more this year based on your post.

I believe that acceleration is being felt even more with UF compiling the class they have now. Last year FSU and UF were utterly getting shunned by everyone, it was looking rather bleak. FSU is better than they were last year but still meh but UF is doing the **** thing now. Dont even want to go in further on the why and what will happen with UF but they are doing well. Our issue right now is that even though the staff loves the guys we have, our ratio aint great. Good news is that I believe that CWH, Pruitt and Day will eventually be upgraded. I think the rest stay as 3s. At the end of the day recruiting for us fans is about bragging rights and we want to see some fireworks so we can shut up the inbred lizards up north. We dont just need a run of commits we really need the top level guys, Riley was one of those guys but we need 3-4 more at the very least soon enough. Like you said, both you and I are betting on that happening but its hard watching all these other schools raking them in. Good news is that we have Mario and recruiting is the one thing he with out question excels at, we will finish with a top 10 class when its said and done, unless we go 5-7 again.

UF will lose 5-6 games. Some of their verbals will slide.

 

[bobbydigius]

UF will lose 5-6 games. Some of their verbals will slide.

Im counting on it.

 

[Odysseus]

UF will lose 5-6 games. Some of their verbals will slide.

Exactly man that team has the worst talent it's has had in several years and a brutal schedule with a horrid QB room they are cooked. If they made it to bowl eligibility Billy deserves coach of the year

 

[supacane]

I said most of the kids who commit will stick and stuck. When peoole were like oh NIL makes it unstable, it actually stabilized the recruiting market. There was very little drama on signing day with kids flipping bar a few like Cormani. I personally dont care how many players are committed unless we after them heavy. Cristobal most likely could have taken a bunch of commits even before OV season. He has his process and thats that.

 

[Calicane02]

UF will lose 5-6 games. Some of their verbals will slide.

They won 6 games with a qb tailor made for bayou billys offense, we'll see how he adapts but very likely they finish sub .500

 

[WeBallinBoyz]

Just a question do we have the numbers on percentage of “locked up” players that stayed with their commitment of this time last year?

So I took a look at all four and five stars from the ‘23 recruiting class on the 247 composite (450 ish kids) and then narrowed it down into some interesting bullet points. Here’s the data broken down into different categories:

Commits that stuck
April: 29/36 (80.56%)
May: 21/27 (77.78%)
June: 62/75 (82.67%)
July: 97/120 (80.3%)
August: 50/57 (87.2%)

Total = 259/315 (82.2%)

- Surprisingly, 27 of the top 450 ish kids committed in 2021, and 23 of them stayed committed (82.2%)
- Similarly, 29 of the top 450 ish kids committed in January, February, or March of 2022; 24 stayed committed (82.8%)

A bit of a preconceived notion that accepting earlier commits results in more de-commitments.

- Oregon was very involved with flipping kids late, as was Auburn (coaching change makes sense here).
- Clemson does the best job of locking their kids up in the summer (mostly June), followed by Ohio State, UGA, and Texas (a bit odd that this cycle is much slower for them)

I will also add that a fair number of these de-commitments were either kids affected by a coaching change (Stanford + Cincinnati were two of the big ones) or kids being dropped (Texas had a few kids end up at Houston or Texas Tech, Alabama had a kid de-commit and wind up with Arizona, Pitt had a D-lineman end up at Notre Dame, Oregon pillaged Northwestern for a defensive back, etc.)

The point here is - if our strategy is "wait til the season"....well that's not the right strategy.

To say July and August are humongous for us is an understatement. Now that it's the end of June and July is approaching, t's time to get this thing rolling. Let's see what Mario has in store.

 

[CT Cane 44]

UF will lose 5-6 games. Some of their verbals will slide.

FSU will win games this year. It’s important for recruiting to win enough games ( 9-10) but I agree I’m not worried about UF

 

[Hurracanes]

I’ve been thinking about this the past few days. You and I have certainly been on the same page in terms of expecting fireworks all July. But I must admit…the clock is ticking, and I believe the parameters have changed.

I posted in some other thread regarding the amount of players that have already committed to a school for the 2024 class. I’m not sure if the numbers were similar to last season, but in terms of elite blue chippers, here’s how many are “locked up” in the most updated version.

21 of the top 50 are committed (42%)
52 of the top 100 are committed (52%)
76 of the top 150 are committed (50.6%)
107 of the top 200 are committed (53.5%)
139 of the top 247 are committed (56.2%)

Moreover, I counted nine more players inside the top247 that have a set commitment date between now and July 7th. That is 60% of blue chips, and that’s not even counting the guys that pop without a set date for any particular program. I mean - we should also expect guys to commit by then. If our class sits in a similar range by that date…then it’s time to start questioning what our approach is here.

If the numbers shook out similarly to 2023’s overall class, then I stand corrected…but it seems like there are way more summer commits this time around.

Now of course guys are going to get flipped, and I reckon we will have plenty of those. But…when Francis committed to the good guys on July 4th, we had the #8 class in the country. When Malik committed late July, we were #7 but tenths away from inside the top 5, sliding in at 4. #4 and #7 were separated by .2, and I believe Kinsler pushed us over into that top 5 range moments later.

I think I say this because I’m excited, and yet apprehensive considering July 1st is this upcoming Saturday. It would take a run that topped last year’s to enter the top 8 imo, and there are plenty of schools (like us) that haven’t kicked it into overdrive yet. Those include…

#10 Tennessee - 14 commits (9 four-stars, 5 three-stars)
#11 USC - 12 commits (9 four-stars, 3 3-stars)
#12 Clemson - 12 commits (2 five-stars, 8-four stars, 2 3-stars)
#13 SCar - 12 commits (8 four-stars, 4 3-stars)
#27 Alabama - 8 commits (3 5-stars, 4 4-stars, 1 3-star)
#28 Miami - 12 commits (3 4-stars, 9 3-stars)
#29 Texas A&M - 10 commits (6 4-stars, 4 3-stars)
#39 Auburn - 8 commits (6 4-stars, 2 3-stars)
#41 Oklahoma - 8 commits (5 4-stars, 3 3-stars)
#55 Texas - 6 commits (4 4-stars, 2 3-stars)

I didn’t even mention FSU (11 commits), because if they finish above us in recruiting, I’ll eat a shoe.

No offense to these kids, but the Ryan Mack’s and Barney’s aren’t going to cause most to jump for joy. And yes, that is certainly not Mario’s job regarding star hunting and appeasing message board lunatics…but we’ve got to start landing some of these upper-echelon players ALL MONTH LONG if we aspire to be a top recruiting juggernaut everyone here has pegged us as. It can’t be only our kids that want to drag out the process. That seems silly and naïve.

Anyways, that’s my mini star-***** rant for the day…cheers to the entirety of July being a recruiting month for the ages.

Let’s revisit this in 3-4 weeks.

 

[WeBallinBoyz]

FSU will win games this year. It’s important for recruiting to win enough games ( 9-10) but I agree I’m not worried about UF

I mean I think they'll suck too but based on what I just posted, it would take a catastrophically historic meltdown for them to plummet in the rankings like that. Men lie, women lie, the numbers don't.

Some will de-commit, I'm sure of it. But unfortunately I think a few will stick. Let's also be real with ourselves - we all know they're paying a lot, right? It's no secret. Well, some kids will stay on because of the amount they are getting paid, no matter the results. Money rules all.

It's why our bag game needs to be at an elite level this day and age. I think it is, it's just time to show it.

Now I'm all for the implosion that could come should they go something like 4-8 (entirely possible). But let's not just assume they'll implode because we vehemently despite them.

 

[CT Cane 44]

I mean I think they'll suck too but based on what I just posted, it would take a catastrophically historic meltdown for them to plummet in the rankings like that. Men lie, women lie, the numbers don't.

Some will de-commit, I'm sure of it. But unfortunately I think a few will stick. Let's also be real with ourselves - we all know they're paying a lot, right? It's no secret. Well, some kids will stay on because of the amount they are getting paid, no matter the results. Money rules all.

It's why our bag game needs to be at an elite level this day and age. I think it is, it's just time to show it.

Now I'm all for the implosion that could come should they go something like 4-8 (entirely possible). But let's not just assume they'll implode because we vehemently despite them.

Nothing makes my heart melt more than UF sucking! Lol

 

[TriStarCane]

So I took a look at all four and five stars from the ‘23 recruiting class on the 247 composite (450 ish kids) and then narrowed it down into some interesting bullet points. Here’s the data broken down into different categories:

Commits that stuck
April: 29/36 (80.56%)
May: 21/27 (77.78%)
June: 62/75 (82.67%)
July: 97/120 (80.3%)
August: 50/57 (87.2%)

Total = 259/315 (82.2%)

- Surprisingly, 27 of the top 450 ish kids committed in 2021, and 23 of them stayed committed (82.2%)
- Similarly, 29 of the top 450 ish kids committed in January, February, or March of 2022; 24 stayed committed (82.8%)

A bit of a preconceived notion that accepting earlier commits results in more de-commitments.

- Oregon was very involved with flipping kids late, as was Auburn (coaching change makes sense here).
- Clemson does the best job of locking their kids up in the summer (mostly June), followed by Ohio State, UGA, and Texas (a bit odd that this cycle is much slower for them)

I will also add that a fair number of these de-commitments were either kids affected by a coaching change (Stanford + Cincinnati were two of the big ones) or kids being dropped (Texas had a few kids end up at Houston or Texas Tech, Alabama had a kid de-commit and wind up with Arizona, Pitt had a D-lineman end up at Notre Dame, Oregon pillaged Northwestern for a defensive back, etc.)

The point here is - if our strategy is "wait til the season"....well that's not the right strategy.

To say July and August are humongous for us is an understatement. Now that it's the end of June and July is approaching, t's time to get this thing rolling. Let's see what Mario has in store.

Thank you for doing this. More data and less anecdotes. The recruiting game has changed since the portal and NIL. You want commits - empirically it’s easier to be in position to hold and keep them once they commit than trying to flip them.