Derrick Harmon - DT MSU

[canes732]

@Confidence1000

No diddy

 

[RightSaidFred]

Oh I wasn't disagreeing at all just answering the points that I thought I could add to. Also I never implied that the true freshmen were the answer. I understand that you are not concerned about the future but instead this year and I share your concerns. I've spent all morning banging my drum about how crucial it is that we get not 1 but 2 DTs. Ideally I would want 3 but that's not likely. Getting back on track, I have said that of the two MSU DTs that Harmon was the most important due to his size, strength and ability to blow up everything in front of him. We have nobody like him on the roster. Barrow is an outstanding player but he doesn't solve our biggest issue inside. Depth at CB is what worried me the most and with the addition of Dyonni Hill plus another DB we should be good there because Brown, Richard, Stafford and Porter are all talented. The first three in that list just need more time and reps in order to develop. At Safety, we could be able to move Powell from Nickel back to FS which is where he is needed most. At the other Safety position we will have Riley, Patterson, Williams and Harris battling it out.

I like the Hill take but he’s developmental IMO. CB was a weakness last season and we needed a plug and play answer.

Safety is taking a step back due to bad high school recruiting in ‘22 and ‘23 at that spot, losing Kam to the NFL. Just a lot of question marks back there and you would have needed to land a Caleb Downs type there to improve the position over last year. At this point I’d be happy if we could find someone there who is experienced with good range and football IQ, accept that we’re taking a small step back at safety, and make up for it by improving the talent level at DT and CB

 

[NorthEastCane]

So which DT is better? Would love to hear your insightful opinion.

It depends.

You talk as if DT is one position. I questioned this before when we got Deen from Purdue.
Bat Signal UP!!! Purdue DT Branson Deen Transfers to Miami

post #261

... But I'm being to believe that DT is almost like two positions that you have to recruit for: a 3 tech that can get inside penetration, and a 0 tech that can take on multiple blockers. It seems like most we're getting are best suited for the 3 tech role. We don't have anyone that can fill the role that Courtel Jenkins did.

It's super rare to find someone that can fill both roles such as Vince Wilfork or Cortez Kennedy.

Lance responded with the following.

post #264

You can remove the beginning to believe. It is 100% a different position. It’s an entirely different role.

What you really want is the unicorn like you mentioned. A 1T who can also rush the passer. Having a 1T that can do that changes your defense. Not only does it allow your defense to be base-heavy, you aren’t exposed as much by tempo because your 1T can play both run and pass. If an offense gets your slug 1T out there and gets that first 1st down, you tend to see tempo without subbing so that player can’t get off the field and you have little rush. Or vice versa if you get stuck with a DE inside, they’ll pound it.

(emphasis added)

It appears these two DTs from MSU play different roles. While both would improve us, the biggest hole in the roster (as it currently stands), is a 1T. Think Rutgers and their run game.

Harmon, if he the one to fill the role of a 1T, is more important. It's easier to find a 3T. It also seems easier to get a young one up to sped to play 3T.

 

[423Hurricane]

Against lesser teams I agree. He would have made the difference against better teams though.

Just disappointing since this was supposed to be “all in” must win type of season. Good job in the portal but not good enough. Good job on offense, but some areas on defense went unaddressed and we will definitely notice that at points during the season IMO

I believe a valiant attempt was made to add a difference making DT, We’ve seen many times with many teams certain circumstances don’t go as all would hope. And there’s not many difference making DT’s to begin with and the competition for those few is fierce.

It’s obvious to me that Mario and Co have gone “all in” this year. The portal additions overall have been stellar. I don’t believe 1 piece of the puzzle will derail the season.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

If we don’t land him then that’s how I would characterize it. Good job in the portal so far, not good enough though unfortunately since we need a massive year this year.

Offensive talent looks good, defense is still suspect and didn’t get addressed adequately

But you said:

"Fail if NIL didn’t step up imo."

And I said it wasn't a fail.

These recruits have lots of options and lots of considerations. A coach can't just point his finger and say "I want him and him and him". It's a two-way street.

I'd love to enroll this kid, but it's not a failure on UM's part.

 

[Wake_Cane]

Yeah that’s fine, but none of that is going to matter in the fall when the games are played, when FSU has the ball and it’s 4th and goal and we need a stop.

It doesn’t have to be Harmon but the clock is ticking and they need to figure something out

i hear what you're saying, but go watch the nc state game again and watch what clark did to our run game and you will probably feel better

 

[NorthEastCane]

I don’t believe 1 DT will make or break our season. A QB yes (and Mario has that covered). I’m confident Guidry can scheme around any 1 “deficiency” as he did last year when we had several guys on IR.

IMO, next to QB, DT is the most important position on the field. Scheming around a weakness at DT may work for much of the schedule, but if we are going all in on Ward and want to do something in the expanded playoffs (or even make the playoffs), the stronger teams will take advantage of it.

There will be no effective scheming against a team that can match up physically. Even Rutgers did it. Think about that.

 

[NorthEastCane]

How did the Rams win a Super Bowl with a 280 LB. DT. That Aaron Donald guy somehow survived the NFL trenches. Sometimes we can overthink things. With a good rotation we will be fine.

Yep. Just dial up a future hall of famer and insert him in our lineup.

Oh, wait.

 

[RightSaidFred]

But you said:

"Fail if NIL didn’t step up imo."

And I said it wasn't a fail.

These recruits have lots of options and lots of considerations. A coach can't just point his finger and say "I want him and him and him". It's a two-way street.

I'd love to enroll this kid, but it's not a failure on UM's part.

UM failed to address the need on the interior DL so far.

Harmon was one path to addressing that need. There were other options available this offseason. At this moment in time, he’s the only available player left on the board who addresses the need. There were other paths available at various points in the process, but today at the 11th hour he appears to be it. Maybe I’m wrong.

 

[BigDikDaddyFromCincinnati]

But you said:

"Fail if NIL didn’t step up imo."

And I said it wasn't a fail.

These recruits have lots of options and lots of considerations. A coach can't just point his finger and say "I want him and him and him". It's a two-way street.

I'd love to enroll this kid, but it's not a failure on UM's part.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Yeah that’s fine, but none of that is going to matter in the fall when the games are played, when FSU has the ball and it’s 4th and goal and we need a stop.

It doesn’t have to be Harmon but the clock is ticking and they need to figure something out

Several things.

1. You said we "waited". We did not. Some guys in December did not choose us and/or already knew where they were going. Tampering is real, y'all.
2. You are talking about the "most-in-demand"/"least-in-quantity" position on the field. There are not enough good DTs to go around, let alone two. Supply and demand are real, y'all.
3. Separate "past mistakes" from "current situation". Yes, we have not signed as many HS/Portal DTs as we would like. We've also had some setbacks (Portal kid re-portaling to F$U after one year at UM, or the UFC DT from 'Bama).
4. You are comparing "all-in" with potentially losing ONE kid. I'm not denying he is an important piece, but the fact that we were in-play with him is an indication that we are all-in. If not, we would not even have been in it with him. And now I'm tired of using the word "in".
5. These players have agency too. They may not choose the school that offers the most money or the best situation. It happens. Best efforts do not always equal best results.
6. The Portal is still open for entry. There are players who will graduate in May and June and July who do NOT need to enter the Portal. The game is not over.

It's a setback for now. Let's see where we stand in August. I **** sure know that Mario will not give up recruiting until he runs out of the tunnel at Ben Hill Griffin Stadium.

 

[AllbouttheU]

How did the Rams win a Super Bowl with a 280 LB. DT. That Aaron Donald guy somehow survived the NFL trenches. Sometimes we can overthink things. With a good rotation we will be fine.

Lol look I’m not all doom when it comes out on missing Harmon but Rams won a Super Bowl cuz that guy was a force by himself and maybe one the greatest defensive players to live. Do we have enough at DT to still be fine? Sure I think so but it would have been nice to really take that line to the next level.

 

[NorthEastCane]

Several things.

1. You said we "waited". We did not. Some guys in December did not choose us and/or already knew where they were going. Tampering is real, y'all.
2. You are talking about the "most-in-demand"/"least-in-quantity" position on the field. There are not enough good DTs to go around, let alone two. Supply and demand are real, y'all.
3. Separate "past mistakes" from "current situation". Yes, we have not signed as many HS/Portal DTs as we would like. We've also had some setbacks (Portal kid re-portaling to F$U after one year at UM, or the UFC DT from 'Bama).
4. You are comparing "all-in" with potentially losing ONE kid. I'm not denying he is an important piece, but the fact that we were in-play with him is an indication that we are all-in. If not, we would not even have been in it with him. And now I'm tired of using the word "in".
5. These players have agency too. They may not choose the school that offers the most money or the best situation. It happens. Best efforts do not always equal best results.
6. The Portal is still open for entry. There are players who will graduate in May and June and July who do NOT need to enter the Portal. The game is not over.

It's a setback for now. Let's see where we stand in August. I **** sure know that Mario will not give up recruiting until he runs out of the tunnel at Ben Hill Griffin Stadium.

There has been noise in other threads that there was a relatively recent change in the transfer portal that even grad transfers had to file by the deadline. Is there anything to that or is it just misinformation?

 

[WeBallinBoyz]

The other thing that’s nice about upgrading the DL - it makes life 10x easier on the guys in the secondary.

Let’s say (hypothetically) the secondary is still a major issue for this team come August. We get Mesidor back. We added Alston. We hopefully get to add Baron soon.

Adding 2 more DTs would give us a very deep and lethal DL. Tons of different body types to mix and match with pressure coming from anywhere at anytime. But, we do need that big haws in the center that eats doubles and can disrupt the middle of that OL. Even if we land Barrow, that’s still missing from this team.

We could assuredly make it work without that elite and large piece in the middle, but it would make us that much better to have someone like that. Now you can collapse the pocket more often, force QBs outside and WRs to cut off routes, just making life so much easier on the back end and the probability for errant throws to exponentially increase.

Still another 48 hours to tamper or up the bags.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

There has been noise in other threads that there was a relatively recent change in the transfer portal that even grad transfers had to file by the deadline. Is there anything to that or is it just misinformation?

I will say this.

That is the CURRENT, just enacted rule.

And I do not expect it to survive even the first minimal legal challenge. And the NCAA is on a helluva losing streak right now.

Consider this. We all know that a school can withdraw financial aid for those entering the Portal. Now let's imagine that it is April 29th, and a student-athlete needs summer classes to graduate. So he's a few credits away from graduation, yet he has to declare he is leaving school BEFORE he graduates and before his final credits are paid for?

Yeah, I'd be willing to bet money that the very first summer graduate who wants to enter the Transfer Portal in July will WHIP the NCAA in court with a recent law-school graduate as his pro bono attorney.

It's quite literally one of the dumbest and worst NCAA Portal responses since the NCAA started to lose every lawsuit they filed and/or responded to.

 

[RightSaidFred]

Several things.

1. You said we "waited". We did not. Some guys in December did not choose us and/or already knew where they were going. Tampering is real, y'all.
2. You are talking about the "most-in-demand"/"least-in-quantity" position on the field. There are not enough good DTs to go around, let alone two. Supply and demand are real, y'all.
3. Separate "past mistakes" from "current situation". Yes, we have not signed as many HS/Portal DTs as we would like. We've also had some setbacks (Portal kid re-portaling to F$U after one year at UM, or the UFC DT from 'Bama).
4. You are comparing "all-in" with potentially losing ONE kid. I'm not denying he is an important piece, but the fact that we were in-play with him is an indication that we are all-in. If not, we would not even have been in it with him. And now I'm tired of using the word "in".
5. These players have agency too. They may not choose the school that offers the most money or the best situation. It happens. Best efforts do not always equal best results.
6. The Portal is still open for entry. There are players who will graduate in May and June and July who do NOT need to enter the Portal. The game is not over.

It's a setback for now. Let's see where we stand in August. I **** sure know that Mario will not give up recruiting until he runs out of the tunnel at Ben Hill Griffin Stadium.

What Harmon brings to the table is the ability to cave in the middle of the line on every play. Check out some MSU footage. He’s pushing Big 10 OL back 3-5 yards on every play, pushing centers into the QB’s lap, collapsing pockets and letting guys like Barrow eat.

That makes everything on defense work better. That makes all the other players in the front 7 better and gives them all more opportunities.

We don’t have that type of player on the roster.

Like you said, they’re few and far between like QB’s, which is why you need to hit and missing on these kinds of players can be the difference between meeting our goals for ‘24 and falling just short.

Mario and UM will get all the flowers they want depending on how they finish the season. It makes no difference if a fan says they’ve succeeded or failed at this point.

Get a couple spots on defense figured out and I like our odds a lot better. It’s frustrating because you can see that we’re so close, but probably three impact players away on defense from special.

It’s like we’ve managed to drive the ball 90 yards this offseason and now we’re on the two yard line and it’s 4th down…it sucks to settle for a field goal. Good but maybe not good enough for our goals

 

[TheOriginalCane]

What Harmon brings to the table is the ability to cave in the middle of the line on every play. Check out some MSU footage. He’s pushing Big 10 OL back 3-5 yards on every play, pushing centers into the QB’s lap, collapsing pockets and letting guys like Barrow eat.

That makes everything on defense work better. That makes all the other players in the front 7 better and gives them all more opportunities.

We don’t have that type of player on the roster.

Like you said, they’re few and far between like QB’s, which is why you need to hit and missing on these kinds of players can be the difference between meeting our goals for ‘24 and falling just short.

Mario and UM will get all the flowers they want depending on how they finish the season. It makes no difference if a fan says they’ve succeeded or failed at this point.

Get a couple spots on defense figured out and I like our odds a lot better. It’s frustrating because you can see that we’re so close, but probably three impact players away on defense from special.

It’s like we’ve managed to drive the ball 90 yards this offseason and now we’re on the two yard line and it’s 4th down…it sucks to settle for a field goal. Good but maybe not good enough for our goals

I'm not knocking Harmon. I would love to have Harmon.

What I'm saying is that we don't know his reasons/rationale, and we don't know where he will land yet.

And on that basis, and with what I know about the efforts we made, I'm not putting this on UM.

 

[JZCane0825]

What Harmon brings to the table is the ability to cave in the middle of the line on every play. Check out some MSU footage. He’s pushing Big 10 OL back 3-5 yards on every play, pushing centers into the QB’s lap, collapsing pockets and letting guys like Barrow eat.

That makes everything on defense work better. That makes all the other players in the front 7 better and gives them all more opportunities.

We don’t have that type of player on the roster.

Like you said, they’re few and far between like QB’s, which is why you need to hit and missing on these kinds of players can be the difference between meeting our goals for ‘24 and falling just short.

Mario and UM will get all the flowers they want depending on how they finish the season. It makes no difference if a fan says they’ve succeeded or failed at this point.

Get a couple spots on defense figured out and I like our odds a lot better. It’s frustrating because you can see that we’re so close, but probably three impact players away on defense from special.

It’s like we’ve managed to drive the ball 90 yards this offseason and now we’re on the two yard line and it’s 4th down…it sucks to settle for a field goal. Good but maybe not good enough for our goals

Every team has lighter spots on the roster, even the ones that win national championships. I think your expectations are a bit too unrealistic.

 

[RightSaidFred]

i hear what you're saying, but go watch the nc state game again and watch what clark did to our run game and you will probably feel better

Big, knock-back DT’s are rare, but they’re the type of players top end SEC schools have had and ACC schools have not. It’s the biggest differentiator IMO. Would have been nice if we could have found a way to get it done

 

[RightSaidFred]

I'm not knocking Harmon. I would love to have Harmon.

What I'm saying is that we don't know his reasons/rationale, and we don't know where he will land yet.

And on that basis, and with what I know about the efforts we made, I'm not putting this on UM.

And you’re not wrong, I just don’t think it’s relevant in the fall. When the games are played, you either have the horses or you don’t. Nobody is going to care about the “why.”

If it wasn’t going to be Harmon, then they needed another solution and I would argue they’ve had enough time between Winter and today to find someone who fits the mold who they could have brought in