All-Time Miami Hurricanes Draft - D$ selects Shakespeare/JL

[bomb]

Walsh(tie)Kelly>Kosar>Testaverde>Dorsey>Erickson>Torretta

imho

As pros...its Kelly>Kosar/Testaverde (Kosar better peak, Vinny longer more productive career) then everyone else.

In college...Dorsey>the field.

Not the physical player as the field, but the winningest QB and he owns the record book.

Now, if you want to get into the "most talented" or some other type of debate that just looks at stuff you can't really measure..then it gets interesting.

I'm mushing it all together into some sort of weighted combo... not unlike this draft. You have to take physicality into it. Well, at least I do.

 

[Larry]

Walsh(tie)Kelly>Kosar>Testaverde>Dorsey>Erickson>Torretta

imho

As pros...its Kelly>Kosar/Testaverde (Kosar better peak, Vinny longer more productive career) then everyone else.

In college...Dorsey>the field.

Not the physical player as the field, but the winningest QB and he owns the record book.

Now, if you want to get into the "most talented" or some other type of debate that just looks at stuff you can't really measure..then it gets interesting.

Are you saying that the other guys would not have been as productive or won as much as Dorsey with the same teams?

I love Dorsey. But I feel good about any of those Qs under center on the 1999-2002 squads

That depends...I think the field is superior athletically sans Gino. I think for a squad like the 99-02 'Canes, a facilitator was exactly what the team needed and the offense was built around...I think the other QBs do different things and while the result may have been the same leading to a national title, no one does BETTER than Dorsey...what he was, was the PERFECT QB for those squads...Cool, unassuming, and just get the football to the playmakers. I feel like the field (sans Gino) would have tried to be too much of a playmaker themselves in some situations.

 

[Larry]

Walsh(tie)Kelly>Kosar>Testaverde>Dorsey>Erickson>Torretta

imho

As pros...its Kelly>Kosar/Testaverde (Kosar better peak, Vinny longer more productive career) then everyone else.

In college...Dorsey>the field.

Not the physical player as the field, but the winningest QB and he owns the record book.

Now, if you want to get into the "most talented" or some other type of debate that just looks at stuff you can't really measure..then it gets interesting.

I'm mushing it all together into some sort of weighted combo... not unlike this draft. You have to take physicality into it. Well, at least I do.

Eh, I don't...because even in today's NFL, you have some of the best players not exactly fitting into the mold of what you look for physically.

 

[Larry]

Personally, I like Tano's squad the most for the overall depth. When his weakest link, imo, is a guy like Butler who's going into his 7th-year in the NFL, that's quality to me.

Best from top to bottom.

Outside of DT, I don't see where Tano stands out.

QB - DMoney
RB - probably k9
Pass Catchers - Lu or Larry
OL - Lu or k9
DE - EthnicSands
DT - Tano or DMoney
Overall DL though...I like Sands
LB - Tano or Larry...but honestly, I don't think anyone has a great group of linebackers, oddly...the talent is pretty evenly distributed.
DB - Larry
K/P - Larry
Return - Sands or D$

 

[AUcane]

Overall Defense: Tano
Incredible front 7 and very solid DBfield

Overall Offense: K9
The steadiest OL of all the teams. Has consistent, multi year starters there. Money man walsh at the helm, and with EB and Edge, 2 of the best position players we've ever had.

 

[Caned Peach]

Personally, I like Tano's squad the most for the overall depth. When his weakest link, imo, is a guy like Butler who's going into his 7th-year in the NFL, that's quality to me.

Best from top to bottom.

Outside of DT, I don't see where Tano stands out.

QB - DMoney
RB - probably k9
Pass Catchers - Lu or Larry
OL - Lu or k9
DE - EthnicSands
DT - Tano or DMoney
Overall DL though...I like Sands
LB - Tano or Larry...but honestly, I don't think anyone has a great group of linebackers, oddly...the talent is pretty evenly distributed.
DB - Larry
K/P - Larry
Return - Sands or D$

It's why I used overall. Tano's team is the one best put together, from top to bottom. There are some real head scratchers on all the other rosters. From either current players @ UM to just fill-ins b/c of not knowing any better due to age limitations. If out of 28 players your weakest link is a 6-year NFL pro, then you did well. Very well.

 

[Ibisuponatime]

Walsh(tie)Kelly>Kosar>Testaverde>Dorsey>Erickson>Torretta

imho

As pros...its Kelly>Kosar/Testaverde (Kosar better peak, Vinny longer more productive career) then everyone else.

In college...Dorsey>the field.

Not the physical player as the field, but the winningest QB and he owns the record book.

Now, if you want to get into the "most talented" or some other type of debate that just looks at stuff you can't really measure..then it gets interesting.

Are you saying that the other guys would not have been as productive or won as much as Dorsey with the same teams?

I love Dorsey. But I feel good about any of those Qs under center on the 1999-2002 squads

That depends...I think the field is superior athletically sans Gino. I think for a squad like the 99-02 'Canes, a facilitator was exactly what the team needed and the offense was built around...I think the other QBs do different things and while the result may have been the same leading to a national title, no one does BETTER than Dorsey...what he was, was the PERFECT QB for those squads...Cool, unassuming, and just get the football to the playmakers. I feel like the field (sans Gino) would have tried to be too much of a playmaker themselves in some situations.

See I disagree with this. People dissect these situations too much. I wouldn't say Dorsey was the perfect QB for those teams, but rather, given Dorsey's strengths and weaknesses, those teams were perfect for him. IMO Dorsey only succeeds at UM in such a dynamic way with a talent rich team that only needed a distributor.

A great QB is a great QB. Jim Kelly and Bernie don't succeed on those teams because why? They're too good at Q and would do too much? That's silly.

By your rationale there would be NFL teams that would pass on Brady, Rodgers, etc because they don't fit correctly. Yeah right...

 

[AUcane]

In college, one can definitely make the argument for Walsh over Dorsey.

 

[Larry]

Walsh(tie)Kelly>Kosar>Testaverde>Dorsey>Erickson>Torretta

imho

As pros...its Kelly>Kosar/Testaverde (Kosar better peak, Vinny longer more productive career) then everyone else.

In college...Dorsey>the field.

Not the physical player as the field, but the winningest QB and he owns the record book.

Now, if you want to get into the "most talented" or some other type of debate that just looks at stuff you can't really measure..then it gets interesting.

Are you saying that the other guys would not have been as productive or won as much as Dorsey with the same teams?

I love Dorsey. But I feel good about any of those Qs under center on the 1999-2002 squads

That depends...I think the field is superior athletically sans Gino. I think for a squad like the 99-02 'Canes, a facilitator was exactly what the team needed and the offense was built around...I think the other QBs do different things and while the result may have been the same leading to a national title, no one does BETTER than Dorsey...what he was, was the PERFECT QB for those squads...Cool, unassuming, and just get the football to the playmakers. I feel like the field (sans Gino) would have tried to be too much of a playmaker themselves in some situations.

See I disagree with this. People dissect these situations too much. I wouldn't say Dorsey was the perfect QB for those teams, but rather, given Dorsey's strengths and weaknesses, those teams were perfect for him. IMO Dorsey only succeeds at UM in such a dynamic way with a talent rich team that only needed a distributor.

A great QB is a great QB. Jim Kelly and Bernie don't succeed on those teams because why? They're too good at Q and would do too much? That's silly.

By your rationale there would be NFL teams that would pass on Brady, Rodgers, etc because they don't fit correctly. Yeah right...

There were lots of teams that passed on both Rodgers and Brady because they "didn't fit"...funny enough, we saw countless teams pass on Peyton f'n Manning this off-season (by not even putting in a **** bid) because he "didn't fit"...so, your "yeah right" actually happens...quite often. Dolphins passed on Drew Brees, for example. Happens all of the time.

Great QBs aren't always simply great QBs...QB, above all positions, matters most on the surrounding situation.

Elway might be the GOAT, but he couldn't quite get over the hump...he got to the dance with how good he was, but his surrounding staff was the worst of any Super Bowl participant I can remember...

Joe Montana was in the Super Bowl and Pro Bowl in 1990...an injury and a move to KC later...he's good, real good still, but he's not Joe Montana...the injury...age...all have something to do with it...but the 49ers still win the Super Bowl in 94 with Joe instead of Steve Young in what would have been Joe's final season...

Do Jim and Bernie succeed? Sure. Do they succeed at the level Dorsey succeeded? I don't know...my opinion is that they don't, though. Dorsey could have succeeded on any UM team, he was simply a great collegiate college QB. I think he was the greatest COLLEGIATE QB Miami has ever had. Different games, the pro and college levels...he didn't have the arm or physical ability to play the pro game, but he had an 8 year career simply based off his mind for the game...think about that for a minute...as physically unopposing as Dorsey was/is, he is rivaled by very few collegiate QBs for his mind for the game. As a collegiate...rivaled by who...Ty Detmer, Peyton Manning, and Andrew Luck with what's going on upstairs? That's **** good company.

 

[Larry]

In college, one can definitely make the argument for Walsh over Dorsey.

I'd put them very close, with Walsh as Miami's #2 collegiate QB. I think Dorsey's career longevity and him surpassing Walsh's numbers across the board trump Walsh.

Both have very similar resumes though.

 

[Ibisuponatime]

There were lots of teams that passed on both Rodgers and Brady because they "didn't fit"...funny enough, we saw countless teams pass on Peyton f'n Manning this off-season (by not even putting in a **** bid) because he "didn't fit"...so, your "yeah right" actually happens...quite often. Dolphins passed on Drew Brees, for example. Happens all of the time.

I don't believe those guys slipped because they didn't fit, but rather because teams evaluating them weren't sure if they were going to be quality QBs. I'm not talking about the Brady that went in the 6th round, I'm talking about the Brady we know now. Same goes for Rodgers.

As for Peyton and Brees, horrible examples. The Dolphins didn't stupidly pass over Brees because of a fit. They passed over him because of concerns over his reconstructed shoulder. Maybe if Saban gets that right he stays in the pro game.

And Manning...passed over because of fit? C'mon Larry. The guy has a serious neck injury that many are concerned is going to end his career. Not to mention his age.

I disagree wholeheartedly that Dorsey is Dorsey on any UM team. The man was surrounded by arguably the most talented collegiate teams in the history of CFB. In many other eras he would have to be more than a distributor, which he would have struggled with.

 

[Ibisuponatime]

And give me Walsh over Dorsey in college everyday of the week. In what area of the collegiate game was Dorsey better than Walsh?

 

[Larry]

There were lots of teams that passed on both Rodgers and Brady because they "didn't fit"...funny enough, we saw countless teams pass on Peyton f'n Manning this off-season (by not even putting in a **** bid) because he "didn't fit"...so, your "yeah right" actually happens...quite often. Dolphins passed on Drew Brees, for example. Happens all of the time.

I don't believe those guys slipped because they didn't fit, but rather because teams evaluating them weren't sure if they were going to be quality QBs. I'm not talking about the Brady that went in the 6th round, I'm talking about the Brady we know now. Same goes for Rodgers.
They didn't fit...whether teams didn't believe in their skill set or they weren't the type of player they were looking for...whatever you want to call it, they didn't fit in the plans of that team...known story in NFL circles...Brady was actually quite highly regarded by some well respected draft pundits (one famously had him as a first round pick...ended up working in the NFL for a minute)...****, the 49ers staff rated him very high as well, but in a power play by Bill Walsh, he took Gio Carmazzi over Brady with the 65th pick in the draft despite the entire staff wanting the home town boy Brady...just one example of how a player doesn't fit with what they want to do. Players don't always slip in the draft because everyone questions their talent...sometimes, its just happenstance. Rodgers was regarded by everyone BUT the 49ers as the #1 QB in the draft...but what ends up happening is a player doesn't fit with what they are trying to do and they fall in love with another player...Rodgers is the definition of this...he slipped because teams that didn't expect Rodgers to be available, fell in love with another player. Essentially, I strongly disagree with your quote here...it couldn't be further from the truth.

As for Peyton and Brees, horrible examples. The Dolphins didn't stupidly pass over Brees because of a fit. They passed over him because of concerns over his reconstructed shoulder. Maybe if Saban gets that right he stays in the pro game.
Definitely not horrible examples...Brees especially...they went with another player that fit what they wanted to do...Culpepper was coming off a leg injury...no different than Brees' injury...no hindsight either...everyone wanted the Dolphins to sign Brees. And, if you think Gomer the GOAT was passed over for an injury, you be crazy...most teams in the NFL are just dumb.
And Manning...passed over because of fit? C'mon Larry. The guy has a serious neck injury that many are concerned is going to end his career. Not to mention his age.
Gomer wouldn't even have been on the market if the Colts didn't think it was best for their team to move on and take the great collegiate QB prospect since Elway and Manning...so, the Colts obviously passed on Manning due to the fit of their franchise going forward. Obvious answers are obvious.

I disagree wholeheartedly that Dorsey is Dorsey on any UM team. The man was surrounded by arguably the most talented collegiate teams in the history of CFB. In many other eras he would have to be more than a distributor, which he would have struggled with.
Go look at those 80's Miami teams...THEY WERE ALL JACKED UP...imagine Dorsey with Erickson as coach...it'd be ridiculous. Miami had the passing attack early in the 80's when teams were stacking up jumbo linemen for the option...you don't think Dorsey would have excelled the same throwing to Eddie Brown? C'mon, let's not act like Steve Walsh had inferior talent playing around him...he was throwing TO MICHAEL IRVIN!!!

Mutliquoted for posterity...

 

[Larry]

And give me Walsh over Dorsey in college everyday of the week. In what area of the collegiate game was Dorsey better than Walsh?

Well...he threw for more yards...better career TD:INT ratio...higher career QB Rating...I mean, overall, Walsh was simply surpassed in the books by Dorsey...and it wasn't simply because he played an extra season...Dorsey's best two seasons trump Walsh's two years...

Physically, Walsh was superior...but accomplishments on the field...as a collegiate...I mean, Dorsey was simply his superior...it isn't by much...but it just is.

 

[Ethnicsands]

RE: Where the debate is...

I, personally think, the best players at the top of this draft were both greats at Miami and the greats in the pros...aka, the College/Miami Hall of Famers and the Pro Hall of Famers...

So, Jim Kelly, Ray Lewis, Ted Hendricks, Ed Reed, Michael Irvin, Jim Otto, Warren Sapp...those guys should have been the first seven guys off the board, in my opinion (they were #1's 1-7 when I first came up with my list)...Great 'Canes...Great Collegiates, Hall of Fame pros. After those top 7 guys, you get a little more leeway...obviously guys like Cortez Kennedy would be on that next tier, with Bryant McKinnie...non-Pro Hall of Famers (maybe Kennedy makes it in in time), and Jerome Brown because he is considered the great pure 'Cane of All-Time...and even after that second tier, it really comes down to the mood you happen to be in on what makes a guy a greater 'Cane than another guy...whether its a better pro game or a better collegiate career. I mean, for me, personally, there comes a point when an All-American and 'Cane Hall of Fame old guy with a mild pro career is more valuable than a middling pro and a decent 'Cane that people might be more familiar with...then you have some of us that didn't really touch older players for an array of reasons.

I'd like to suggest that each of us who picked do a write up of our teams. What we were trying for, our criteria if you will, how we feel about where we ended up, how we see our teams' strengths and weaknesses, etc. we make the case, so to speak, for our teams. If you guys agree, I'll get to work on mine.

 

[Ibisuponatime]

Ok. I agree Manning doesn't "fit" moving forward for Indy. But that has to do with swapping 2-3 good years vs another solid 12-15.
That's a decision I wish the phins had made late in Marino's career as well.

But this "fit" you're describing is different then the one you originally brought up in regards to Dorsey. My argument is that great QBs, in their prime, not in old age with serious injuries, are simply great QBs. And they are the most coveted of assets in all of football. Outside of an option attack, those great QBs, when healthy and under the age of 36, would "fit" with anyone.

Yes yes I understand Dorsey has great stats. But his crappy footwork, mechanics, and noodle arm might have hurt him on other less talented teams. For stats sake, someone could make the argument that Jacory was a great UM QB too. And Walsh does have him in one statistical area, only 1 loss.

All this said, I love Dorsey and agree he was a great collegiate QB. I just do not agree that our other great UM QBs would not have done as good or better on the same teams.

Oh, and in regards to Brees... There was much more concern over his shoulder moving forward than Culpepper's knee.

 

[bomb]

Tano's write-up:

JOAQUIN SAID DOMINATE!

FIN.

 

[bomb]

Oh BTW have we ever discussed JG's Wiki page here? Its awesome.

Joaquin Antonio Gonzalez (born September 7, 1979 in Miami, Florida) is a former professional National Football League offensive tackle for the Cleveland Browns and the Indianapolis Colts.

In college, he played alongside Bryant McKinnie on the offensive line, protecting for quarterback Ken Dorsey during the Miami Hurricanes' national championship season in 2001. He is fondly remembered for reminding his team to dominate at all times during the 2001 season, and only rarely did they not do it.[1]

:ibisroflmao:

 

[DMoney]

Tano's write-up:

JOAQUIN SAID DOMINATE!

FIN.

Joaquin belongs to this man.

<------


BTW, has anyone picked Botts? If not, he's my punter.

 

[LuCane]

I'm not gonna quibble over whose team is the best and such, but since it was specifically mentioned re: the best OLine...

K9
OT - Leon Searcy
OT - Mike Sullivan
OG - Richard Mercier
OG - Kerlin Blaise
C - Bobby Garcia

vs

Lu
OT - Bryant McKinnie
OT - Matt Patchan
OG - Orlando Franklin
OG - Vernon Carey
C - Ty Wise

I'd like to hear the rationales for support of K9's OLine over my OLine.