My rant...

[Coach Macho]

What's with this misconception that pattern-matching will give up big plays?

Pattern-matching is great because it creates much smaller windows for QB's to throw the ball into. That's exactly why it was invented.

All this talk about us choosing to spot drop cause it's "safer" and keeps everything in front of us makes no sense to me. Pattern matching keeps everything in front of you too. It's not a dangerous scheme at all.

Never once have i said "ahh we got burnt cause we were pattern matching!"

 

[zone3cane]

What defensive philosophy purposely ALLOWS offenses to march down the field 8 yards at a time?

The difference between pattern matching vs. spot dropping is Perryman sitting on top of that curl route vs. standing 5 feet next to it. There's no logical reason why Perryman should allow that curl to be complete. He doesn't give up anything by converging on the curl.

*shrugs*



So then why isn't D'Onofrio using pattern reading?

You tell me. Maybe it's not apart of his scheme? Maybe he doesn't believe in it?

Tell me why we get tore up intermediately no matter who we play.

No defensive coordinator wants to die a slow death by getting nickeled and dimed to death. But they also make tradeoffs with the personnel they have. I believe their philosophy with what they have to work with is to the minimize the big play, keep everything in front of them, limit miscommunication, tackle crisply, and force an error (penalty, turnover).

which is a flawed philosophy.... all you are doing is praying you get a turnover or penalty while you get marched up and down the field, while ur Offense is on the bench 2/3 of the game.

I'd rather risk the big play, Miami has the DB talent to match up unlike the other teams FSU has played before.... and i wouldve focused on shutting down all of the 10 yard routes all of the underneath stuff like the entire run game, bubble screens, TEs, and keeping the QB contained.

If you get beat deep move on, if they score at least you didnt let them take all game to do so. Or DBs, aside from AJ Highsmith are talented enough to challenge the deep ball and any receiver.

 

[Coach Macho]

What defensive philosophy purposely ALLOWS offenses to march down the field 8 yards at a time?

The difference between pattern matching vs. spot dropping is Perryman sitting on top of that curl route vs. standing 5 feet next to it. There's no logical reason why Perryman should allow that curl to be complete. He doesn't give up anything by converging on the curl.

*shrugs*



So then why isn't D'Onofrio using pattern reading?

You tell me. Maybe it's not apart of his scheme? Maybe he doesn't believe in it?

Tell me why we get tore up intermediately no matter who we play.

No defensive coordinator wants to die a slow death by getting nickeled and dimed to death. But they also make tradeoffs with the personnel they have. I believe their philosophy with what they have to work with is to the minimize the big play, keep everything in front of them, limit miscommunication, tackle crisply, and force an error (penalty, turnover).

THIS

look, I absolutely swear at the tv as much as anybody when we allow wake forest to walk up the field on us...but is last year REALLY THAT DISTANT OF A MEMORY??? our defense last year was literally invisible...this year with basically the same average personnel, we have been able to increase turnovers, actually generate what would have to be seen as close to an average pass rush (still A WAYS to go) and limit long scoring plays. The last one is the biggest difference, by limiting the big play it causes the offense to run more plays and increases a chance they make an error. The reason we need to take that approach is the fact the defense is still severely lacking in talent up front. The guys that do have talent just arent ready yet. People then want to bash anybody that points to a lack in talent as an excuse, well its a fact. How many teams are running out TOMATO CANS as JRs/SRs like us??? I can guarantee you nobody in the top 25 is working with the same BS we are. I guarantee our defense is improved next year and by 2015 will be the linchpin of our team. I would also be willing to bet my life that once the talent is in place we start to run a more aggressive defensive scheme, golden isnt an idiot and neither is d'nofrio...they dont have enough to take chances on defense right now because there's literally zero room for error. TALENT evens the field and once we have more out there we can take gambles.

The issue isn't with the gambles we are or aren't taking.

 

[Coach Macho]

All this talk about the defense waiting for the offense to ***** up is hogwash too.

First off, that's a lousy way to play defense.

Secondly, FSU could've nickel and dimed us all day. Winston threw his 1st pick cause we were in man and he got greedy. You can't sit back all game and hope for QB's to make mistakes like that cause, more often than not, they're not going to.


"Guys here's the gameplan. We're gonna sit back and play really soft zone and wait for the best QB in the nation to throw us a ball."

 

[zone3cane]

All this talk about the defense waiting for the offense to ***** up is hogwash too.

First off, that's a lousy way to play defense.

Secondly, FSU could've nickel and dimed us all day. Winston threw his 1st pick cause we were in man and he got greedy. You can't sit back all game and hope for QB's to make mistakes like that cause, more often than not, they're not going to.


"Guys here's the gameplan. We're gonna sit back and play really soft zone and wait for the best QB in the nation to throw us a ball."

that's exactly the gameplan..... all D'nofrio planned for was shutting down the deep ball. Well Miami did that and FSU still went 517 yards on us. Well yards allowed doesnt matter accoring to D'onofrio only scoring defense. Ok so the defense on top of giving up 517 yards also gave up 41 points.

THE END

 

[Coach Macho]

All this talk about the defense waiting for the offense to ***** up is hogwash too.

First off, that's a lousy way to play defense.

Secondly, FSU could've nickel and dimed us all day. Winston threw his 1st pick cause we were in man and he got greedy. You can't sit back all game and hope for QB's to make mistakes like that cause, more often than not, they're not going to.


"Guys here's the gameplan. We're gonna sit back and play really soft zone and wait for the best QB in the nation to throw us a ball."

that's exactly the gameplan..... all D'nofrio planned for was shutting down the deep ball. Well Miami did that and FSU still went 517 yards on us. Well yards allowed doesnt matter accoring to D'onofrio only scoring defense. Ok so the defense on top of giving up 517 yards also gave up 41 points.

THE END

But people will say that's because of talent, but i would like someone to show me where we got "out talented".

Highsmith got out-talented on the Benjamin catch.
I would say our DL got out-talented most of the night.

I'll give them that. But what does talent have to do with allowing a RB flare route to go for 10 yards? Or a simple curl route?

 

[FullyERicht]

It's both talent and being indecisive of what they are as system. It's year 3 and I still couldn't tell you what our base defense is.

WCD, what would you say our base D is?

 

[zone3cane]

All this talk about the defense waiting for the offense to ***** up is hogwash too.

First off, that's a lousy way to play defense.

Secondly, FSU could've nickel and dimed us all day. Winston threw his 1st pick cause we were in man and he got greedy. You can't sit back all game and hope for QB's to make mistakes like that cause, more often than not, they're not going to.


"Guys here's the gameplan. We're gonna sit back and play really soft zone and wait for the best QB in the nation to throw us a ball."

that's exactly the gameplan..... all D'nofrio planned for was shutting down the deep ball. Well Miami did that and FSU still went 517 yards on us. Well yards allowed doesnt matter accoring to D'onofrio only scoring defense. Ok so the defense on top of giving up 517 yards also gave up 41 points.

THE END

But people will say that's because of talent, but i would like someone to show me where we got "out talented".

Highsmith got out-talented on the Benjamin catch.
I would say our DL got out-talented most of the night.

I'll give them that. But what does talent have to do with allowing a RB flare route to go for 10 yards? Or a simple curl route?

The fact that D'onofrio even lets AJ Highsmith on the field over Jamal Carter b/c "he doesnt have mental errors" shows you that talent isnt the issue, it's the coach.

It's not talent, there are talent issues but Miami has to have 5 star players across the board before D'onofrio would no longer use that as an excuse. His scheme's are easy to gameplan against for OCs and expose simple as that.

If Miami is going to give up points and 400 yards a game anyway, i'd rather Miami go back to a traditional aggressive 4-3 and let the DBs "free style" if they get beat move on to the next play.

 

[AUcane]

All this talk about the defense waiting for the offense to ***** up is hogwash too.

First off, that's a lousy way to play defense.

Secondly, FSU could've nickel and dimed us all day. Winston threw his 1st pick cause we were in man and he got greedy. You can't sit back all game and hope for QB's to make mistakes like that cause, more often than not, they're not going to.


"Guys here's the gameplan. We're gonna sit back and play really soft zone and wait for the best QB in the nation to throw us a ball."

It is lousy because it basically allows EVERY opposing offenses to move the ball on us. That fatigues a defense is they are marched on between the 20s constantly. And, how is our 3rd down and red zone defense supposed to be any good if they are consistently marched on b/w the 20s?

 

[AUcane]

All this talk about the defense waiting for the offense to ***** up is hogwash too.

First off, that's a lousy way to play defense.

Secondly, FSU could've nickel and dimed us all day. Winston threw his 1st pick cause we were in man and he got greedy. You can't sit back all game and hope for QB's to make mistakes like that cause, more often than not, they're not going to.


"Guys here's the gameplan. We're gonna sit back and play really soft zone and wait for the best QB in the nation to throw us a ball."

that's exactly the gameplan..... all D'nofrio planned for was shutting down the deep ball. Well Miami did that and FSU still went 517 yards on us. Well yards allowed doesnt matter accoring to D'onofrio only scoring defense. Ok so the defense on top of giving up 517 yards also gave up 41 points.

THE END

But people will say that's because of talent, but i would like someone to show me where we got "out talented".

Highsmith got out-talented on the Benjamin catch.
I would say our DL got out-talented most of the night.

I'll give them that. But what does talent have to do with allowing a RB flare route to go for 10 yards? Or a simple curl route?

The fact that D'onofrio even lets AJ Highsmith on the field over Jamal Carter b/c "he doesnt have mental errors" shows you that talent isnt the issue, it's the coach.

It's not talent, there are talent issues but Miami has to have 5 star players across the board before D'onofrio would no longer use that as an excuse. His scheme's are easy to gameplan against for OCs and expose simple as that.

If Miami is going to give up points and 400 yards a game anyway, i'd rather Miami go back to a traditional aggressive 4-3 and let the DBs "free style" if they get beat move on to the next play.

I understand not playing someone b/c he is not ready. I get it especially after 1 year. But, when it's a trend across every position, then something needs to be looked at. It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the spring on the defense.

 

[Coach Macho]

It's both talent and being indecisive of what they are as system. It's year 3 and I still couldn't tell you what our base defense is.

WCD, what would you say our base D is?

Hmmm. 3-4 cover-3?

 

[Pentagon Cane]

All this talk about the defense waiting for the offense to ***** up is hogwash too.

First off, that's a lousy way to play defense.

Secondly, FSU could've nickel and dimed us all day. Winston threw his 1st pick cause we were in man and he got greedy. You can't sit back all game and hope for QB's to make mistakes like that cause, more often than not, they're not going to.


"Guys here's the gameplan. We're gonna sit back and play really soft zone and wait for the best QB in the nation to throw us a ball."

So then why because you never answered my question? I'm not debating whether you're right or wrong. As a matter of fact I'll concede you are correct. You're a smart guy. I've coached. You're coaching. Golden has been a defensive position coach and a defensive coordinator as the Division 1 level. So has D'Onofrio. Both have probably forgotten more than I know and probably you as well. They certainly know their personnel a **** of a lot better than you or I.

 

[LuCane]

All this talk about the defense waiting for the offense to ***** up is hogwash too.

First off, that's a lousy way to play defense.

Secondly, FSU could've nickel and dimed us all day. Winston threw his 1st pick cause we were in man and he got greedy. You can't sit back all game and hope for QB's to make mistakes like that cause, more often than not, they're not going to.


"Guys here's the gameplan. We're gonna sit back and play really soft zone and wait for the best QB in the nation to throw us a ball."

It could be hogwash in that you or I don't prefer that style nor think it works, but it's not hogwash in the reality that it is a choice.

 

[Coach Macho]

All this talk about the defense waiting for the offense to ***** up is hogwash too.

First off, that's a lousy way to play defense.

Secondly, FSU could've nickel and dimed us all day. Winston threw his 1st pick cause we were in man and he got greedy. You can't sit back all game and hope for QB's to make mistakes like that cause, more often than not, they're not going to.


"Guys here's the gameplan. We're gonna sit back and play really soft zone and wait for the best QB in the nation to throw us a ball."

So then why because you never answered my question? I'm not debating whether you're right or wrong. As a matter of fact I'll concede you are correct. You're a smart guy. I've coached. You're coaching. Golden has been a defensive position coach and a defensive coordinator as the Division 1 level. So has D'Onofrio. Both have probably forgotten more than I know and probably you as well. They certainly know their personnel a **** of a lot better than you or I.

I don't know dude.

But I do know this. Not every coach in college does the "right" thing or the "better" thing. And just cause they coach D1 doesn't mean they're "all knowing" and always right. By that belief, we can assume that every college coach is a mastermind and they always do the right thing. That simply isn't the case.

I was just talking to my buddy today that coaches in college. We were talking about the same exact subject.

With that said...I'm positive they know more about football than I do but that doesn't mean anything once the ball's kicked off. The guy I coached under when I first got to WHS was a former college defensive coach. (Butler CC and Indiana State) His defenses at WHS were never very good and then after WHS he went on to coach at Maitland and his defenses still weren't very good. The new DC that took over for me currently has WHS ranked dead last in defense and he's fresh off a college coaching staff.

Some coaches know all the principles, schemes and techniques (such as pattern matching) but don't choose to implement them. Just cause the techniques exist doesn't mean a coach has to believe in them. Two-gapping is a good example. Every coach knows it exists but very few DC's in college choose to implement it. (D'Onofrio being one of them) D'Onofrio believes that two-gapping is best for his defense while a DC at another school might think he's crazy for using that scheme.

I'm not sure there's a "right" or "wrong" way to do things. Some things just boil down to preference. It LOOKS LIKE D'Onofrio's preference is to spot-drop with his LB's. If that's his preference, so be it, but I don't think it's what's best cause it appears to be killing us on Saturday's. Just like it's his preference to use a two-gap technique on the DL. Some people might not think it's the best scheme because we can't penetrate and/or get many TFL's but D'Onofrio might like it because it allows us to have more gap integrity. *shrugs*

 

[Coach Macho]

All this talk about the defense waiting for the offense to ***** up is hogwash too.

First off, that's a lousy way to play defense.

Secondly, FSU could've nickel and dimed us all day. Winston threw his 1st pick cause we were in man and he got greedy. You can't sit back all game and hope for QB's to make mistakes like that cause, more often than not, they're not going to.


"Guys here's the gameplan. We're gonna sit back and play really soft zone and wait for the best QB in the nation to throw us a ball."

It could be hogwash in that you or I don't prefer that style nor think it works, but it's not hogwash in the reality that it is a choice.

True.

 

[spacenegroes]

um, have any yall ****** thought about the possibility that some of our defensive players are literally too ****** stupid to learn pattern matching and so for this year, dorito and golden agreed to just accept the nickel and diming?

maybe the "talent" that we dont have in our players is brain talent. maybe golden woulda never recruited cornelius or gaines or whoever because them ****** too ****** stupid to play his defense.

secondly: why not watch a couple games from his last couple years at temple, and see if golden + dorito taught his LBs to spot drop then too? if the LBs be pattern reading there, well then dawg obviously he has no faith in his current players, but would like to implement it once he gets the players he wants.

 

[zone3cane]

**** pattern matching...... Miami's LBs shouldnt have to play safety all game.

What's the point of a defense that uses 3 LBs as safeties when they are 240lbs? Maybe this type of defense would have more success in a 4-2-5 base instead of whatever the **** kind of 3-4 this is.

 

[supacane]

Its amazing for you to hear a Miami team goes into a game and says the gameplan is to keep everything infront of them. Thats what Northwestern said against Ohio St. Not only do we play this way against FSU etc. We do it against every team. I have a strong feeling, no matter the talent, this is just Dno's philosophy. Better talent is just going to equal better at keeping everything infront of us. IMO

 

[am1640]

It's your opinion that this isn't spot dropping? Just one game I remember clearly, so went and took a couple quick screenshots. Please see:

WR ran a shallow cross almost directly next to the LB.

View attachment 23959

QB held the ball because there was no rush, which allowed WR to find a bigger window, as our LB didn't really move very much.

View attachment 23960

I'm all for differing opinions and would love to keep this discussion going, but I encourage everyone to at least try to back up their statements with video, images, or something. I think it'd help everyone who hopes to learn.

Sorry took so long to respond but really busy lately, anyway I have no doubt we spot dropped last season and we may still do it at times this season, but I just think it's wrong to think that's all we do when we clearly zone match along with other coverage we didn't touch last season (i.e. cover 1). I tried to get the best example I could remember from games I saw live because the TV broadcast doesn't give you full view vantage point of the field like being in the stadium does, but even with that I'm still just guessing coverage.

My Non expert opinion

Spoiler

This is from the UF game in the anyway although it looks like we are in a Cover2, I'm assuming we are in a Cover 3 Cloud but who the heck really knows that's why it so hard to take a stance one way or the other imo

At the bottom of the screen you can see the#2 (Burton) is going to do a shallow cross. Because of this Gunter will play the #1 Pattern (Dunbar??) squeezing the inside cut. TC is going to drop inside the #1 keeping that curl window close from inside out. He's also will maintain periph on on the #3 (Jones) whose releasing to eventually play stack from high/low. Since Jones is releasing outside DP is going to carry the #2(Burton) inside to the ball. Dallas will reroute the (the TE) so that he doesn't get the seam.

Here's a look from behind the QB and in the second pic you can clearly see our LBers reading their keys not just blindly spot dropping. Also in the last two pictures you'll see Tracy has 1/3 of the field to himself, AJ has middle where he eventually picks up the TE post, and Jenks over the top of Gunter which is why I'm assuming it's a Cover 3 cloud.

all of this is just my non expert opinion from what I see while at the game and I can key on certain players (I would've given more examples but just cutting up this one play took 4ever), but because there is so much missing info it just a big guess. I just feel like some people (not you or WC) are just looking at the end result of the play and feel like we aren't doing anything but playing patty cake until the WR catches the ball and that's simply not true. Even Saban's defenses allow catches but he stresses maintaining middle protection and keeping everything in front of you. This is from his LSU playbook, but his Michigan State and Bama playbooks have the same philosophy.

sorry the image is so small I'm not an expert at this.

Also playing match zone doesn't mean guys will just be running willy nilly from one spot to the next, they still have zone principals so they have to maintain vision with keys and qb. Again sorry so small

and here's a vid of him explaining his Rip/Liz match and you can see the LBer's going through the principals I'm talking about.
[video=youtube_share;kM21euJf74g]http://youtu.be/kM21euJf74g[/video]

I'm sort of out of it but I think we've been doing some of the things Saban does with his defense. I mean I don't think we give up many middle plays, just sideline and underneath stuff but I maybe wrong. However our defense sucks imo because a) we don't get a good pass rush (which was key in the play I posted) and b) we aren't excellent tacklers (we give up to many big plays ie 1st downs on 3rd and long/tds because of **** poor tackling) and that's something to complain about iyam.

Anyway I've rambled on enough and probably way to much. Maybe I'm just to patient because I saw Canes fans to a man (including myself) all agree that Walton was a buffoon, however apparently he wasn't since the guy that fired him could barely get a position job and Walton was a hot commodity in the NFL for Coordinator positions.

 

[Big Sky Cane]

From Golden Nike Clinic

http://coachjbird.blogspot.com/2013/08/finallydefense-some-defensive-ideas-and.html

1 Mistake on Offense= 2nd Down
2 Mistakes on Offense= 3rd Down
3 Mistakes on Offense= Punt
1 Mistake on Defense= 6pts!!!

This is the stress of a defensive coordinator.