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5-star WR Calvin Russell commits to [checks notes] Syracuse? For real, though... Syracuse

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TakeitinDiaz said:
I don’t know. I bet a few people would argue Rae carruth as the scariest wr
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aelmiami said:
As a lifelong Vikings fan, I blame Red McCombs. He wasn’t a good owner. I think McCombs being cheap, not getting a stadium paired with some of Moss’s antics made that trade happen.

Firing Green was the beginning of the end for Moss in MN imo. McCombs really screwed that whole situation up and I personally think it fueled some issues. Not absolving Moss of his problems off the field, but he has spoken candidly multiple times about what Green meant to him. And McCombs firing probably our best coach not named Bud Grant after his first losing season ruined the relationship between the FO & Moss.
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As a fellow Vikings fan, this is all correct and where @DMoney keeps losing the narrative with his Moss argument. The Vikings traded him because McCombs was cheap and trying to trim payroll to sell the team. The Wilfs (GREAT owners) thought they were getting a superstar and were not looped in on the deal.

Besides firing Green, the end of Moss in Minnesota began with, sadly, the tragic death of Korey Stringer in training camp 2001. He was Moss' best friend on the team and he never recovered from that. This also aligned with both Green (father figure) and Cris Carter's (mentor) last year in Minnesota. There was zero talk about Moss being a distraction prior to these events. He still is responsible for his actions thereafter, but between Stringer, Carter, and Green, everything fell apart for him over the course of about 6 months and he didn't have the mental fortitude or support needed to overcome it. That's a lot to overcome all at once. Once he got to a stable organization and team in New England, look what happened.
 
DMoney said:
Even in that clip, Belichick was joking about how Moss refused to go over the middle.

I’ll take a guy who may only be 95% as talented but can do everything and doesn’t need to be treated like a child.
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Because he didn’t need to. That argument is like saying Steph Curry doesn’t shoot enough mid ranges.

When you are talking about uber talented players, that 5% is a lot. I really think you’re over blowing the child aspect of this. A lot of ex teammates in NE heap praise on the guy. His tenure in MN went from a player’s coach in Green, to a hard *** in Tice. Oakland has been a dumpster fire for decades.
 
CreativeCane said:
As a fellow Vikings fan, this is all correct and where @DMoney keeps losing the narrative with his Moss argument. The Vikings traded him because McCombs was cheap and trying to trim payroll to sell the team. The Wilfs (GREAT owners) thought they were getting a superstar and were not looped in on the deal.

Besides firing Green, the end of Moss in Minnesota began with, sadly, the tragic death of Korey Stringer in training camp 2001. He was Moss' best friend on the team and he never recovered from that. This also aligned with both Green (father figure) and Cris Carter's (mentor) last year in Minnesota. There was zero talk about Moss being a distraction prior to these events. He still is responsible for his actions thereafter, but between Stringer, Carter, and Green, everything fell apart for him over the course of about 6 months and he didn't have the mental fortitude or support needed to overcome it. That's a lot to overcome all at once. Once he got to a stable organization and team in New England, look what happened.
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Moss signed with Notre Dame. He went to FSU. He ended up at Marshall. He dropped in the first round. The Vikings let him go in his prime. He quit on the Raiders. There’s a pattern there.

Randy Moss was a 27-year-old man when Minnesota let him walk. Why did he need a father figure and a mentor to act like a grown up?

Fitzgerald was in a much worse franchise in Arizona and never caused problems. All he did was finish second in yards all time (ahead of Moss), lead that franchise to the Super Bowl, dominate the playoffs and excel at every aspect of playing receiver.

Give me that kind of guy every day if my job is on the line.
 
CreativeCane said:
As a fellow Vikings fan, this is all correct and where @DMoney keeps losing the narrative with his Moss argument. The Vikings traded him because McCombs was cheap and trying to trim payroll to sell the team. The Wilfs (GREAT owners) thought they were getting a superstar and were not looped in on the deal.

Besides firing Green, the end of Moss in Minnesota began with, sadly, the tragic death of Korey Stringer in training camp 2001. He was Moss' best friend on the team and he never recovered from that. This also aligned with both Green (father figure) and Cris Carter's (mentor) last year in Minnesota. There was zero talk about Moss being a distraction prior to these events. He still is responsible for his actions thereafter, but between Stringer, Carter, and Green, everything fell apart for him over the course of about 6 months and he didn't have the mental fortitude or support needed to overcome it. That's a lot to overcome all at once. Once he got to a stable organization and team in New England, look what happened.
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He obviously needed to be handled with delicate gloves. But so do a lot of superstars. I do agree, had the Wilfs been the owners from the jump he probably doesn’t leave MN in his prime.

It’s easy to stand on the outside and say look he’s a cancer. And I don’t expect many people to remember the workings of a team they don’t follow 20 years later. But MN was an absolute dumpster fire when the Wilfs bought the team. It’s not like that team had model citizens and then the big, bad crazy Randy Moss. Five months after Moss was traded Love Boat happened.

So bad owner, bad coach, and a team that hired almost 100 strippers and prostitutes for a group *** party. Moss was hardly the issue in MN at that time.
 
DMoney said:
Moss signed with Notre Dame. He went to FSU. He ended up at Marshall. He dropped in the first round. The Vikings let him go in his prime. He quit on the Raiders. There’s a pattern there.

Randy Moss was a 27-year-old man when Minnesota let him walk. Why did he need a father figure and a mentor to act like a grown up?

Fitzgerald was in a much worse franchise in Arizona and never caused problems. All he did was finish second in yards all time (ahead of Moss), lead that franchise to the Super Bowl, dominate the playoffs and excel at every aspect of playing receiver.

Give me that kind of guy every day if my job is on the line.
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Luka was also traded in his prime and wanted to be there, so it's really a terrible argument.

Dude had a troubled past. No one is denying it. He is responsible for his actions. No one is denying it. What we're saying is he had seemingly gotten things straight when he lost three of the most important people in his life (due to death or team moves) in 6 months. That's a lot for anyone to overcome. There are a lot of grown-*** men who struggle when much less happens. Let's stop with the holier-than-thou attitude that people don't struggle when tragedy hits.

In the end, none of the guys mentioned other than Rice won a ring. So maybe the message should be "Don't build your franchise around a WR."
 
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Jerry Rice was so good, era adjusted, any era, his records will stand until the next greatest of all time comes around. No one has come close yet.

Used to throw Randy as my #2...but kind of for the reasons D$ is mentioning, I gravitate toward Larry Fitzgerald (what if Jerry Rice played in this era player). Best hands of all time. Consummate professional.

Megatron and Andre Johnson is too rich for my blood over Moss. In theory because they are 9.9 physically talented and good boys they would be better choices in hindsight, but no one thinks these guys are greater players in real life. Galaxy brain take.

Moss and TOs careers hurt for the same reason. But it doesnt push them down too much. TO especially rated correctly when career finish has him in a Top 3 discussion, but no one really has him there.
 
CreativeCane said:
Luka was also traded in his prime and wanted to be there, so it's really a terrible argument.
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And if Luka follows that up by quitting on the Lakers and telling reporters “I only try when I feel good,” how do you think that would impact his GOAT case?

Moss didn’t lose three people. One guy died (which impacted the whole team) and a couple of other guys got new jobs. Grow up. You’re a 27-year-old professional.

What other GOAT needed a baby sitter?
 
DMoney said:
Moss signed with Notre Dame. He went to FSU. He ended up at Marshall. He dropped in the first round. The Vikings let him go in his prime. He quit on the Raiders. There’s a pattern there.

Randy Moss was a 27-year-old man when Minnesota let him walk. Why did he need a father figure and a mentor to act like a grown up?

Fitzgerald was in a much worse franchise in Arizona and never caused problems. All he did was finish second in yards all time (ahead of Moss), lead that franchise to the Super Bowl, dominate the playoffs and excel at every aspect of playing receiver.

Give me that kind of guy every day if my job is on the line.
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He played 45 more games than Moss, I’d hope he’d beat him yards and receptions. He was 35 TDs behind Moss.

The point with Tice is, he completely lost control of the team. Couple that with a guy from a rough area. With like you said a pattern of issues. What’s the best way to manage it? Say be a grown up?

Look at how the Bulls managed Rodman. You have a player who is talented. It’s clear there’s baggage following him. Do you let the guy run buck wild and free? Absolutely not. But do you understand that he is a bit of a case but if you manage that properly the rewards are better. Which is what happened in NE.
 
DMoney said:
And if Luka follows that up by quitting on the Lakers and telling reporters “I only try when I feel good,” how do you think that would impact his GOAT case?

Moss didn’t lose three people. One guy died (which impacted the whole team) and a couple of other guys got new jobs. Grow up. You’re a 27-year-old professional.

What other GOAT needed a baby sitter?
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And your response to his quote shows how you absolutely bought into the media-twist of his quote. Some context...

Minnesota WR Cris Carter on teammate Randy Moss’ remarks that he only plays “when I want to play”: “Some of it, did he mean it? Yes. But some of it did get misconstrued? It was not taken totally out of context, but some of it was asked in the sense of: ‘Does Coach Green get you motivated? Do you like playing on Monday Night Football? Do you like playing the Packers? Does Cris have to get on you to make a play?’ And he said, ‘No, I play when I want to play.'”

Most notably, there was the flap over his “I play when I want to play” remark. Ripped from the original context (it came in response to a question of how Moss motivates himself to perform) the wide receiver’s off-the-cuff but fundamentally innocuous answer left talking heads sputtering and howling. They said Moss disgraced the game by failing to give the proverbial 110 percent on every down of every game–even though many other receivers do the same, and the legendary Jerry Rice has admitted he does.

We get it, you don't like Moss, but it's clear your opinion is based on popular media narrative and not the actual facts. As a Miami Hurricane fan, of all people, you should know better.
 
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CreativeCane said:
And your response to his quote shows how you absolutely bought into the media-twist of his quote. Some context...
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His quote about quitting matched the film of him quitting. Look at his production at Oakland, and then compare it to guys like Calvin/Fitz/Andre who played their entire careers with franchises like Oakland.

When you need to make excuses for a player at every stop since high school, he’s probably the problem.
 
HurricanePhilly said:
Boyyyy...I know people in Philly that wont even talk about this guy in private.
(going to be a sophomore). Has the OSU offer already. But its a business with Marvin...so obviously a heavy lean but no lock just yet.
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Marvin is one of my favorite all-time WRs and I'm a Phins fan. Quiet dude with glue hands, huge numbers, Super Bowl win, and a Hall of Famer who enforces his own turf with a Louisville Slugger as a retiree :LOL:
 
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DMoney said:
The quote about quitting matched the film of him quitting. Look at his production at Oakland, and then compare it to guys like Calvin/Fitz/Andre who played their entire careers with franchises like Oakland.

When you need to make excuses for a player at every stop since college, he’s probably the problem.
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And yet you continually ignore that I have said he is accountable for his actions. We can agree to disagree on the weight of it all.

But let's stop pretending he isn't the most athletically talented WR to ever do it. Rice has the greatest career, but Moss is #2 WR after him. Calvin was a stud but in the end did not move the needle with Stafford throwing to him. Moss so happened to be part of a record-setting offense in 1998 (at the time) with an old Randall Cunningham and then again with the Patriots in 2007. That's not a coincidence.

It's all moot because Jefferson is quickly going to get in the conversation if he stays healthy. Keeps setting receiving records while being doubled more than any other WR (53% to Chase's 11%) and having QBs like Cousins, Nick Mullens, and Darnold instead of Burrow, not to mention he only played 10 games in 2023 and still put up 1000 yards. If McCarthy is remotely decent Jefferson is going to do some damage.
 
CreativeCane said:
But let's stop pretending he isn't the most athletically talented WR to ever do it.
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I agree, although Calvin is close.

I’m just a big believer that championship sports is about talented players with character. Not personal life stuff, but team character. Michael Irvin was a maniac off the field but he was the ultimate team guy and a winner. That’s why he’s a lifelong Cowboy wearing three rings.

The Spurs and Patriots were boring but won everything. Nick Saban prioritized football character in recruiting during his dominant run. The Chiefs have some nut jobs but they play the game hard, practice hard, and have an elite intangible guy driving the ship. LeBron and Steph Curry never cheat the game.

That’s what greatness is to me.
 
DMoney said:
I agree, although Calvin is close.

I’m just a big believer that championship sports is about talented players with character. Not personal life stuff, but team character. Michael Irvin was a maniac off the field but he was the ultimate team guy and a winner. That’s why he’s a lifelong Cowboy wearing three rings.

The Spurs and Patriots were boring but won everything. Nick Saban prioritized football character in recruiting during his dominant run. The Chiefs have some nut jobs but they play the game hard, practice hard, and have an elite intangible guy driving the ship. LeBron and Steph Curry never cheat the game.

That’s what greatness is to me.
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Well then we can both agree to root for Jefferson because that guy is the epitome of hard work, production, and making his teammates better.
 
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