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“Positionless” Defense

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You can run a 46 Defense with the line-up below:

DL: Harvey, Ford, Nesta, Johnson
LB: Brooks, Flagg or K. Smith
Strikers: Frierson and Hall
DB: Stevenson, Bolden, Ivey

Rotation
DL: deep rotation
LB/STK's: Huff, Carter, Flagg or K. Smith, J. Williams and/or C. Smith
DB: Couch, Blades, A. & J. Williams
 
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It can be done. Up to a point, and you can do it if your stacked with freaks that can cover and thump. Dudes like chase smith and JDub come to mind. If not your gonna get cooked out there by speedsters or your gonna get run over for big gains by dudes like trey sanders (if he was healthy) or dudes like Bijan Robinson in Texas.

Just like there is a weakness in having a skinny non physical corner like Cj Henderson, there is a draw back to having slow 240 lbs linebacker.

Obviously they also come with their pluses.
But it’s obvious that there is an advantage in having dudes that can do both. The problem is that they don’t grow in trees.
There are some really good former high school safeties that are playing linebacker in the nfl now.
Even one of ours.
 
dodaniels said:
You can run a 46 Defense with the line-up below:

DL: Harvey, Ford, Nesta, Johnson
LB/Strikers: Frierson, K. Smith, Flagg, Hall
DB: Stevenson, Bolden, Ivey

Rotation
DL: deep rotation
LB/STK's: Huff, Carter, Steed, J. Williams and/or C. Smith
DB: Couch, Blades, A. & J. Williams
Click to expand...
I’d tweak it a little, but something like this is what I’d like to see. My tweaks would be for passing vs running downs.

Idk about Nesta vs the rush. Too undisciplined. But Nesta and JHH inside on pass downs.

I’d like to see some stand up rushers off the edge too. I’m notoriously anti-freshman early in the season, but I’d like to see what J Williams can do there. K Smith too.

I’m a broken record right now, but Tae has to play on passing downs. We need his range and versatility. He isn’t scared to come downhill and hit. Him and Bolden is what I want to see.

Flagg probably has to come off the field on pass downs. We need one of the athletic LBs to be able to play situational MIKE.

Rush downs, I guess Miller and Ford? I’m a huge JHH guy, hopefully he is stronger this year and can be an every-down DT.

I like Carter at striker/LB on rush downs. He is fearless and not afraid of contact. Rather than trying to decapitate WRs, I’d like to see him take on OLmen, smack them in the mouth, and let someone else clean it up.

Again, this is all premised on our LBs being subpar. If someone steps up in fall camp, we should be in a much better position and not have to get so creative.
 
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You need to be fundamentally discipline when you play the big boys. If you start running all kinds of sleek schemes you probably end of confusing yourself: My concern is, and I know it's only the spring, I really didn't see anything different from Manny that we were getting from Blake. Basically we overran plays, we gave up long 3rd down completions, got blown up on some counters, and really didn't looked all that physical, or bigger.
 
scrantoncane said:
Paging @Coach Macho @LuCane @HighSeas
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You can find me in posts during last season asking to get K. Smith on the field at the same time as #3. Not because I necessarily thought he was a good LB or knew how he'd transition to that role, but because he's just a better football player than the alternatives. "Better football player" is ambiguous, so I'll look at three things: (1) he tackles better, (2) takes better angles, (3) and has better reactions to plays in front of him. "Positionless" defense is now a common term in the NFL and football circles because offensive formations have dictated significant adjustments from the days of 11, 12 and 21 personnel groupings (etc.) and what defenses had on the field to respond accordingly.

As we put Nickel and Dime packages together to respond to modern offensive formations, I think it gave defensive coordinators an opportunity to get players doing things they'd simply do better than their peer (alternative). A big example that jumps out is Jamal Adams in the NFL. Sure, he's a Safety. On passing downs, he's often his team's best pass rusher. Should the defense not get the benefit of his "win above replacement" (term from another sport, used here to mean something different) likelihood because of position? Nah. Just send him at the QB from different launch points than the traditional pass rusher is all.

The bigger problem for me is "why" we, the Hurricanes, would start talking about it and doing it. It's nice to throw around buzzy terms, but I'm more concerned about being a "misaligned" defense than a "positionless" defense. I'm not in the film room and relatively disconnected from the program at this point, so I have no idea if that's happening because of design or because our players don't understand where to line up sometimes. Too often, it leads to being out-leveraged. "Positionless" football requires quick, lateral players who can still tackle and be physical.

It also requires players who are "good football players" - so when we're evaluating dudes, it'd be nice to see we have guys who understand angles, can fill, process, and generally be adaptable to the relative chaos of non-traditional subpackages. College teams don't have the time or competencies to do what NFL teams do with "positionless" defense. Again, before we get there, I think we'd all like to see more consistent fundamentals in terms of where we lineup and how our guys play within their assignments. Sure, we can see it in spurts and certainly in blitz packages, but I'd really just like to see athletic football players play sound defensive football in our important games.
 
I don't get the point of this post. Of course we can play more DBs if the offensive system calls for it. Every team from high school to the NFL plays different personnel depending on the offense they are going against. You are not going to play 6 DBs against a run heavy team though.
 
scrantoncane said:
@DMoney comment got me thinking about this. Does anyone know of any team that actually does this?

It seems like every off-season we hear about all these subpackages (Chaney & Knighton together, for example) then it never happens.

We are clearly loaded in the secondary, and weak at LB. With Carter’s move to striker & K Smith to LB, it’s easy to see those 2 plus Bolden & Hall playing at the same time.

Would we play more DBs than that? Can you run it as a base package without getting gashed on the ground? Can guys learn the nuisances of essentially a new position, if they aren’t practicing it every day?

I think a lot depends on whether we get a quality LB in the portal. If not, I don’t see how there aren’t either more position changes, or a move towards a positionless defense. Too much DB talent, and not enough LB talent. If I see Ragone on the field while Tae is on the bench, I’m gonna punch my tv screen.
Click to expand...
After I read "positionless" D, I woke up in a cold sweat last night screaming "be a cheeseburger".

I need a doll to show you all where D'No touched me.
 
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scrantoncane said:
I’d tweak it a little, but something like this is what I’d like to see. My tweaks would be for passing vs running downs.

Idk about Nesta vs the rush. Too undisciplined. But Nesta and JHH inside on pass downs.

I’d like to see some stand up rushers off the edge too. I’m notoriously anti-freshman early in the season, but I’d like to see what J Williams can do there. K Smith too.

I’m a broken record right now, but Tae has to play on passing downs. We need his range and versatility. He isn’t scared to come downhill and hit. Him and Bolden is what I want to see.

Flagg probably has to come off the field on pass downs. We need one of the athletic LBs to be able to play situational MIKE.

Rush downs, I guess Miller and Ford? I’m a huge JHH guy, hopefully he is stronger this year and can be an every-down DT.

I like Carter at striker/LB on rush downs. He is fearless and not afraid of contact. Rather than trying to decapitate WRs, I’d like to see him take on OLmen, smack them in the mouth, and let someone else clean it up.

Again, this is all premised on our LBs being subpar. If someone steps up in fall camp, we should be in a much better position and not have to get so creative.
Click to expand...
With that 46 D, you can be as creative you as you want. You can run multiple packages (4-3, 4-2-5, Dime) without subbing.
 
Once we start seeing playing like LT, James Williams, and Chase Smith in a few years, we'll basically have our own version of a 'positionless D'. Our back 7 will have ridiculous speed and length
 
dolpterry said:
Rogone was on the field last year because he was the only player at linebacker that knew the playbook and was dependable. We have lots of more talented young men but if you don't no the playbook your not getting quality minutes.
Click to expand...
If the players don't know the playbook, the problem is the teacher, not the students.
 
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LuCane said:
You can find me in posts during last season asking to get K. Smith on the field at the same time as #3. Not because I necessarily thought he was a good LB or knew how he'd transition to that role, but because he's just a better football player than the alternatives. "Better football player" is ambiguous, so I'll look at three things: (1) he tackles better, (2) takes better angles, (3) and has better reactions to plays in front of him. "Positionless" defense is now a common term in the NFL and football circles because offensive formations have dictated significant adjustments from the days of 11, 12 and 21 personnel groupings (etc.) and what defenses had on the field to respond accordingly.

As we put Nickel and Dime packages together to respond to modern offensive formations, I think it gave defensive coordinators an opportunity to get players doing things they'd simply do better than their peer (alternative). A big example that jumps out is Jamal Adams in the NFL. Sure, he's a Safety. On passing downs, he's often his team's best pass rusher. Should the defense not get the benefit of his "win above replacement" (term from another sport, used here to mean something different) likelihood because of position? Nah. Just send him at the QB from different launch points than the traditional pass rusher is all.

The bigger problem for me is "why" we, the Hurricanes, would start talking about it and doing it. It's nice to throw around buzzy terms, but I'm more concerned about being a "misaligned" defense than a "positionless" defense. I'm not in the film room and relatively disconnected from the program at this point, so I have no idea if that's happening because of design or because our players don't understand where to line up sometimes. Too often, it leads to being out-leveraged. "Positionless" football requires quick, lateral players who can still tackle and be physical.

It also requires players who are "good football players" - so when we're evaluating dudes, it'd be nice to see we have guys who understand angles, can fill, process, and generally be adaptable to the relative chaos of non-traditional subpackages. College teams don't have the time or competencies to do what NFL teams do with "positionless" defense. Again, before we get there, I think we'd all like to see more consistent fundamentals in terms of where we lineup and how our guys play within their assignments. Sure, we can see it in spurts and certainly in blitz packages, but I'd really just like to see athletic football players play sound defensive football in our important games.
Click to expand...

I'm more concerned about being a "misaligned" defense than a "positionless" defense.
 
I almost brought up the possibility of a 4-1-6 Defense because of Keontra playing so well behind Frierson last year and boom we essentially did it.
Keontra played well enough that he needed to be on the field at the same time as Frierson. Moving him to WLB and bulking him up a bit essentially keeps this a 4-2-5. Chase Smith playing so well allows the move to be permanent. We need to convince James Williams he is not really a Safety, that he can play closer to the LOS move around much like Isaiah Simmons did at Clemson.
 
LuCane said:
You can find me in posts during last season asking to get K. Smith on the field at the same time as #3. Not because I necessarily thought he was a good LB or knew how he'd transition to that role, but because he's just a better football player than the alternatives. "Better football player" is ambiguous, so I'll look at three things: (1) he tackles better, (2) takes better angles, (3) and has better reactions to plays in front of him. "Positionless" defense is now a common term in the NFL and football circles because offensive formations have dictated significant adjustments from the days of 11, 12 and 21 personnel groupings (etc.) and what defenses had on the field to respond accordingly.

As we put Nickel and Dime packages together to respond to modern offensive formations, I think it gave defensive coordinators an opportunity to get players doing things they'd simply do better than their peer (alternative). A big example that jumps out is Jamal Adams in the NFL. Sure, he's a Safety. On passing downs, he's often his team's best pass rusher. Should the defense not get the benefit of his "win above replacement" (term from another sport, used here to mean something different) likelihood because of position? Nah. Just send him at the QB from different launch points than the traditional pass rusher is all.

The bigger problem for me is "why" we, the Hurricanes, would start talking about it and doing it. It's nice to throw around buzzy terms, but I'm more concerned about being a "misaligned" defense than a "positionless" defense. I'm not in the film room and relatively disconnected from the program at this point, so I have no idea if that's happening because of design or because our players don't understand where to line up sometimes. Too often, it leads to being out-leveraged. "Positionless" football requires quick, lateral players who can still tackle and be physical.

It also requires players who are "good football players" - so when we're evaluating dudes, it'd be nice to see we have guys who understand angles, can fill, process, and generally be adaptable to the relative chaos of non-traditional subpackages. College teams don't have the time or competencies to do what NFL teams do with "positionless" defense. Again, before we get there, I think we'd all like to see more consistent fundamentals in terms of where we lineup and how our guys play within their assignments. Sure, we can see it in spurts and certainly in blitz packages, but I'd really just like to see athletic football players play sound defensive football in our important games.
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Thanks for the reply.

I suppose I was looking for your thoughts on this specific Miami team. As I’ve said in this thread (in a nutshell), positionless would get our best players on the field. I have the same concerns about complexity, NFL guys having more time to learn it, etc.

I’m not necessarily advocating for it, it’s more of a conceptual discussion. Intricacies of a safety playing in the box more than he is used to, liability against the run, etc. Seems to me like all our quick, lateral players are logjammed at striker and safety. Win above replacement value is basically the whole premise (and a perfect way to phrase my point).

Can, and should, we do it? If our LBs don’t step up in the fall, we can be 10 deep at safety and still have a defense outside the top 30. All whilst 5 star safeties sit on the bench.
 
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This is something I have wanted to see for a while honestly.

It allows you to get more speed on the field and disguise coverage and pressure, especially with 3 down linemen. Start with a few plays that are simple and move our guys around position and coverage wise. Expand it as they pick it up better. Make it difficult to read based on who is where with the importance placed on assignment. You do this assignment because of the play call, not necessarily the role defined by the system.

Doing this while mixing man and zone can confuse teams and create turnovers, but should mostly be saved for passing downs.

Imagine the suffocation of dropping 3 deep safeties while jamming and playing man with 5 dbs and a linebacker spying. It’s just a three man rush, but there is nowhere to throw the ball. You show pressure from one side, bail and bring it from elsewhere.

We just have to stop the delayed blitz. Those blitzes often don’t work as well for teams with good defensive ends because the ends make the opposing coach scheme up quick passes that negate those blitzes. If we want to bring more than four, we should crowd the line and come at the snap.
 
5NC4 said:
We need to convince James Williams he is not really a Safety, that he can play closer to the LOS move around much like Isaiah Simmons did at Clemson.
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Agreed.

If JW is as-advertised, this could bring a whole new element to our defense, and potentially plug up some of the pass rush deficiencies.

The coaches made it clear the defense was vanilla in the spring game. Manny’s blitz schemes haven’t overwhelmed... the delayed blitzes immediately come to mind. But throughout his tenure we’ve been able to get consistent pressure from the front 4, specifically DE. If we take a step back there this year, as expected, we need someone from that athlete group to emerge as an effective pass rusher that doesn’t need to be disguised to make an impact.
 
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