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“Check with me” Offense - negative for younger QBs, leads to worse output

GojiraCane said:
What if the solution is to replace Gattis with Paul Johnson?!
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At least we know what his philosophy is. If somebody had a gun to his head and told Gattis to tell me his offensive philosophy in 40 seconds, he would start to tell me hold his hands out to check with himself then be shot cause he couldn’t explain it in time
 
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Cribby said:
Our qb’s are remote control dummies out there for Gattis. No sliding protection or audibles. It’s amazing how far we’ve fallen with qb play and trusting them. At least TVD could slide protections last year and that explains why the pass blocking was so much better.
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but all our QBs are trash according to our fans. we have some of the worst coaching at the offensive skill level in maybe 20 years. QBs look like they never played football (thanks Marios butt buddy who we railed on if Manny had hired him when that was a rumor) to WR coaching (I miss likens bc gattis is a trash can there). you could spot a clip and say hey looking every guy is whipped at the line, but no mention of hey maybe not run into 10 man front and spread it out to get some guys out of there to open up something for the backs and help the injured OL
 
futurecane said:
Full disclosure: never played offense in FB, so take this with a grain of salt. I did play FS, so somewhat relevant, I hope…

From a mathematical perspective, a “check with me” offense leads to overloading the QB with decisions, reduces their pre-snap orientation time, and leads to hasty decisions after the snap. I’ll explain:

Scenario 1, no “check with me”: QB has team starting to line up with ~25 seconds on the clock. Play calls for a slant by the slot receiver, with a skinny post behind on the left. RB is the checkdown option, leaking right. Team lined up correctly at 20 seconds, QB spends 5-10 seconds checking LB positions, rush spacing, and forms a picture in their head of what they want to see (scenarios, if LB steps up then slant over his head, if safety bites on slant then post, etc). Ball snapped at 10 seconds on play clock, positive play.

Scenario 2, “check with me offense”: QB has team starting to line up with ~25 seconds on the clock. Play calls for a slant by the slot receiver, with a skinny post behind on the left. RB is the checkdown option, leaking right. Team lined up correctly at 20 seconds, QB looks to sideline at 18 seconds and receives new play. Communication to team and new formation at 10 seconds, giving QB almost no time to review defensive spacing and formation, create scenario in head, and snap ball. Result: delay of game, or negative play.

I made it very simplistic, but you are asking a young QB to process too much, too quickly, and with a time crunch. As a FS, I spent quite a bit of time pre-play just reviewing the formation, down/distance, whatever eye candy or motion the offense was giving, and deciding what my focus in the first 1-2 seconds would be. The QB is no different, and this is hurting them rather than helping.
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Your post isn't bad, but I was wondering, since you played FS, if you have any eligibility left and if you are any good? If so, it seems like we could use you immediately due to some suspect play of one of our S positions. Please report to Greentree IMMEDIATELY! Thanks a lot.
 
Like ANYTHING that has to do with ANYTHING, the quality of a system depends on the people running it and the people managing those people. People act like the "Check With Me" concept is only used by incompetent playcallers, when in reality, it has been used by a ton of playcallers, of varying degrees of competence. A good playcaller will use the concept to get the D to commit to certain calls, by using a mix of dummy initial calls and actual calls. Once you get a defense to the point in which they think every thought they have is WRONG, then you can exploit that. The concept is also useful if you have a QB that is inexperienced, or isn't strong on the mental side. That said, if your OC just isn't any good, and has no feel for the game, then it won't matter.

Dan O loves tempo, he whines about it on every broadcast, the problem is that he refuses to admit that merely going fast isn't the cure all for a bad offense. There are plenty of offenses out there that go fast, but do nothing, which leads to the defense falling apart due to them being on the field more. Tempo is only a TOOL, you can have a measured approach that is effective, or you can be all gas no brakes and be good at it. There's much more to successful offensive football than mere tempo. From my experience, the most effective offenses are those that know when to speed up, and when not to. If you are struggling to find your rhythm, going fast only serves to make it worse for some teams. We saw that with Lashlee. The O would be struggling, and he would still be going the only speed he knows and you'd have miserably quick 3 and outs. As a playcaller, you have to have a good feel for the game. Does the O need to get on track? Maybe going slower, and making sure everyone knows what is going on is more important than just throwing crap at the wall. Maybe your team is better at imposing their will through long, drawn out drives, with explosive plays mixed in compared to going 100 MPH. Know your unit.
 
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I’ve been telling everybody this, including strangers who don’t care and people in my life who are tired of humoring me. it’s alarming that we have so many analysts on staff and would still be rocking with just a basic tactical disadvantage like this.
 
Canedude08 said:
Like ANYTHING that has to do with ANYTHING, the quality of a system depends on the people running it and the people managing those people. People act like the "Check With Me" concept is only used by incompetent playcallers, when in reality, it has been used by a ton of playcallers, of varying degrees of competence. A good playcaller will use the concept to get the D to commit to certain calls, by using a mix of dummy initial calls and actual calls. Once you get a defense to the point in which they think every thought they have is WRONG, then you can exploit that. The concept is also useful if you have a QB that is inexperienced, or isn't strong on the mental side. That said, if your OC just isn't any good, and has no feel for the game, then it won't matter.

Dan O loves tempo, he whines about it on every broadcast, the problem is that he refuses to admit that merely going fast isn't the cure all for a bad offense. There are plenty of offenses out there that go fast, but do nothing, which leads to the defense falling apart due to them being on the field more. Tempo is only a TOOL, you can have a measured approach that is effective, or you can be all gas no brakes and be good at it. There's much more to successful offensive football than mere tempo. From my experience, the most effective offenses are those that know when to speed up, and when not to. If you are struggling to find your rhythm, going fast only serves to make it worse for some teams. We saw that with Lashlee. The O would be struggling, and he would still be going the only speed he knows and you'd have miserably quick 3 and outs. As a playcaller, you have to have a good feel for the game. Does the O need to get on track? Maybe going slower, and making sure everyone knows what is going on is more important than just throwing crap at the wall. Maybe your team is better at imposing their will through long, drawn out drives, with explosive plays mixed in compared to going 100 MPH. Know your unit.
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Some good points here. But I would say this. Even those playcallers that do that, don’t do it all the time. Usually a critical down, or they get a “tell” about something at the last moment. But they don’t do it every down. If they do, they are micromanaging imo. It also shows that you aren’t teaching enough. You don’t see NFL teams doing look at me at all.

You are right that tempo is a key. I would practice it a lot in practice because that’s not something you can employ unless you are well versed in it. Then you just running around like chicken with head cut off. You can be methodical calling plays taking time off the clock without look at me too.

Our issues are more than just look at me. Its play design and calling appropriate route concepts based on the strengths of your players and the weaknesses of the teams youre playing. You should know all this before the game.
 
Cribby said:
Our qb’s are remote control dummies out there for Gattis. No sliding protection or audibles. It’s amazing how far we’ve fallen with qb play and trusting them. At least TVD could slide protections last year and that explains why the pass blocking was so much better.
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it's like anything else.

"check with me" needs to be situational. it has its utility under certain conditions, but if it's predictable, then the defense will adjust, and use it to redirect to their advantage.

the way gattis uses CWM is ineffective because:

1. we don't moderate it with pace
2. we don't bluff out of checks
3. we take too long for both our initial call and checked call
4. we allow the defense to key off our counts
5. we don't switch it out with QB checks

You add all that, and you end up with 100 yards of offense
 
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It's supposed make it easier on the QB and offense.
Check with me, just to see alignment, regardless of blitzes.
Blitzes don't matter that much as opposed to simply where they are lined up on the field of running 1 or 2 high safety.
But Gattis is running 5-7 step drop concepts , and passing concepts into coverages and front that are against what he should.

Mind you his checks for the run game have been successful typically
 
Arehel said:
It's supposed make it easier on the QB and offense.
Check with me, just to see alignment, regardless of blitzes.
Blitzes don't matter that much as opposed to simply where they are lined up on the field of running 1 or 2 high safety.
But Gattis is running 5-7 step drop concepts , and passing concepts into coverages and front that are against what he should.

Mind you his checks for the run game have been successful typically
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easier to do, because that's usually an easy "flop" call based on strength of the formation. (i.e., flop the play from going one way to the other)
 
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rascon said:
Some good points here. But I would say this. Even those playcallers that do that, don’t do it all the time. Usually a critical down, or they get a “tell” about something at the last moment. But they don’t do it every down. If they do, they are micromanaging imo. It also shows that you aren’t teaching enough. You don’t see NFL teams doing look at me at all.

You are right that tempo is a key. I would practice it a lot in practice because that’s not something you can employ unless you are well versed in it. Then you just running around like chicken with head cut off. You can be methodical calling plays taking time off the clock without look at me too.

Our issues are more than just look at me. Its play design and calling appropriate route concepts based on the strengths of your players and the weaknesses of the teams youre playing. You should know all this before the game.
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The reason WHY NFL teams don't do that is because an NFL QB is usually a finished product, they expect their QBs to be able to manage the game mentally. You can't be lacking in the mental side and play in the NFL at QB, or at the very least, play on a regular basis. You also have to remember, there aren't any practice limitations either. People forget that an OC in college can spend a MAXIMUM of 20 or so hours with a kid, per week.
 
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Canedude08 said:
The reason WHY NFL teams don't do that is because an NFL QB is usually a finished product, they expect their QBs to be able to manage the game mentally. You can't be lacking in the mental side and play in the NFL at QB, or at the very least, play on a regular basis. You also have to remember, there aren't any practice limitations either. People forget that an OC in college can spend a MAXIMUM of 20 or so hours with a kid, per week.
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I know OCs only get so much time with a kid. But all the more reason why they should make the concepts more simple and stop making themselves the center of every play. That means defense only gets limited time too. Like I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, it’s mostly on OC wanting to be seen as the smartest guy in the stadium and playing chess when it needs to be checkers.
 
MiamisMoperiestMopes said:
Tennessee uses it, at least they did last night for a couple plays.
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And I’ve seen USCw as well. At least some of the time.

The ‘check with me’ isn’t exclusive Miami’s dysfunctional offense. The difference is Tennessee and USCw and others have better coaches and better players. So, they execute it better.
 
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Last year, we had a QB that threw for over 300 yards in 6 consecutive games!!!!! It amazes me how a group of professionals could ***** that up in one year.
 
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