VanGorder or someone like him as DC

To compare him to Dorito is everything I need to know about this discussion.

He can have the best Xs and Os in football, but if he doesn't produce results who cares. Concepts mean nothing if you cannot put them into practice.

Context. Why has he produced less than optimal results recently? Could it be that he had a front that had been recruited to implement a 2-gap system? Could it be that he just transitioned guys suited to play a totally different type of [strength] system to an upfield system? Could it be for another reason? Part of the reason, surely, is that he can be too complicated. I mentioned that. I don't think there are perfect candidates.

Thanks for letting me know that concepts mean nothing without results. That wasn't my point, and you probably know that (or I hope you do).

It's been everywhere though. He stunk at AU, stinks at ND, despite it being his third year. Stunk with the Falcons. He just hasn't ever had any really good seasons to fall back on.

He was at AU for a cup of coffee (one year with Chizik).

He's definitely struggled at ND more than I expected him to, so I'll concede that one.

Atlanta:

During VanGorder's stint with the Falcons, the organization achieved unprecedented heights, posting four consecutive winning seasons, a franchise first, including playoff appearances in 2008, 2010 and 2011. His defenses consistently showed marked improvements along the way.
Helping the Falcons to a 10-6 regular season record in 2011, VanGorder's defense finished the regular season second in the NFL in red zone defense, sixth in rushing defense (97.0 ypg), and 12th in total defense (333.6 ypg).
In 2010, the Falcons defense finished 10th in the NFL in rushing defense allowing 105.9 yards per game, which ranked fifth in the NFC. The run defense was not the only part of the defense that showed improvement in 2010. VanGorder's defense ranked in the top five in the NFL in scoring defense (18.0, 5th), turnover differential (+14, 3rd) and interceptions (22, 4th), marking highs for VanGorder's defense during his tenure.



His defenses were 22nd, 25th, 16th, and 12th and then he got fired. Par for the course for him: mediocre.

He took the 8th ranked defense and dropped to 31st and then in the 70s and back to the thirties at ND.

His one season at AU is excusible, but nonetheless it was wretched.
 
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His defense is overly complex. Max Redfield has said BVGs defense was harder than learning Mandarin Chinese. I'm also not sure I see anything in his past, recently mostly, that says he is a "good" defensive coordinator. 2015 was his best year in ages, however, was in the 70's last year, 80's with Auburn, bottom half (most seasons bottom third) with the Falcons.

He was pretty decent with Georgia, I suppose, but that was well over a decade ago.

I wouldn't hate it, but I just don't see the fit.
 
He can have the best Xs and Os in football, but if he doesn't produce results who cares. Concepts mean nothing if you cannot put them into practice.

Context. Why has he produced less than optimal results recently? Could it be that he had a front that had been recruited to implement a 2-gap system? Could it be that he just transitioned guys suited to play a totally different type of [strength] system to an upfield system? Could it be for another reason? Part of the reason, surely, is that he can be too complicated. I mentioned that. I don't think there are perfect candidates.

Thanks for letting me know that concepts mean nothing without results. That wasn't my point, and you probably know that (or I hope you do).

This is one of the reason he would not be a fit. This is from 2 days ago in the Chicago Tribune.

VanGorder's schemes are complicated, tough to learn in the limited practice time available to college players.

But VanGorder, 56, didn't swallow that as an excuse. Disagreed, even, as the Irish prepare to face Ohio State in Friday's Fiesta Bowl.

"You have to be pretty smart to play in our defense," he said. "We're multiple in what we do. But if I looked at those plays that bring about the term inconsistency, they wouldn't involve anything that was complicated.

That's part of what I stated (bolded and underlined). It goes with everything I've seen in his defenses. Also, the fact he spent a lot of time in the NFL. Not complicated in "react" way Dorito is, but he just has so many packages.

It's funny. The difference between the attributes/values needed to play in VanGorder's defense really aren't all that different than Aranda's defense. One is 3-4; the other 4-3. But, you're looking at similar position types and attributes.

I'm just saying I don't like BVG. It has nothing to do with Aranda. I love Don Browns version of the 4-6, Dantonio's 4-3, Todd Orlando's 3-4, Rocky Long's 3-3-5 and Aranda's 3-4 etc. He just hasn't produced in the last 15 years and I am not impressed. I want a DC who plays great defense is all I care about.

It's a reasonable view. I get it. Like I told Fully, we want the same thing.

I tend to project more. I don't ignore recent results, but I try to understand why they happened and project if they'd happen differently here.

As the original post notes, what I'm looking for is this type of DC. Someone looking for the attributes that VanGorder looks for in his defenses. Bring us that guy. I don't care what scheme it comes from.
 
Context. Why has he produced less than optimal results recently? Could it be that he had a front that had been recruited to implement a 2-gap system? Could it be that he just transitioned guys suited to play a totally different type of [strength] system to an upfield system? Could it be for another reason? Part of the reason, surely, is that he can be too complicated. I mentioned that. I don't think there are perfect candidates.

Thanks for letting me know that concepts mean nothing without results. That wasn't my point, and you probably know that (or I hope you do).

This is one of the reason he would not be a fit. This is from 2 days ago in the Chicago Tribune.

VanGorder's schemes are complicated, tough to learn in the limited practice time available to college players.

But VanGorder, 56, didn't swallow that as an excuse. Disagreed, even, as the Irish prepare to face Ohio State in Friday's Fiesta Bowl.

"You have to be pretty smart to play in our defense," he said. "We're multiple in what we do. But if I looked at those plays that bring about the term inconsistency, they wouldn't involve anything that was complicated.

That's part of what I stated (bolded and underlined). It goes with everything I've seen in his defenses. Also, the fact he spent a lot of time in the NFL. Not complicated in "react" way Dorito is, but he just has so many packages.

It's funny. The difference between the attributes/values needed to play in VanGorder's defense really aren't all that different than Aranda's defense. One is 3-4; the other 4-3. But, you're looking at similar position types and attributes.

I'm just saying I don't like BVG. It has nothing to do with Aranda. I love Don Browns version of the 4-6, Dantonio's 4-3, Todd Orlando's 3-4, Rocky Long's 3-3-5 and Aranda's 3-4 etc. He just hasn't produced in the last 15 years and I am not impressed. I want a DC who plays great defense is all I care about.

It's a reasonable view. I get it. Like I told Fully, we want the same thing.

I tend to project more. I don't ignore recent results, but I try to understand why they happened and project if they'd happen differently here.

As the original post notes, what I'm looking for is this type of DC. Someone looking for the attributes that VanGorder looks for in his defenses. Bring us that guy. I don't care what scheme it comes from.

The problem with projecting BVG is you don't really need to. This isn't some new coach, or FCS guy, or mid major guy. He's been coaching in the P5 or the NFL for 15+ years. At some point, you gotta say this is who he is.
 
He can have the best Xs and Os in football, but if he doesn't produce results who cares. Concepts mean nothing if you cannot put them into practice.

Context. Why has he produced less than optimal results recently? Could it be that he had a front that had been recruited to implement a 2-gap system? Could it be that he just transitioned guys suited to play a totally different type of [strength] system to an upfield system? Could it be for another reason? Part of the reason, surely, is that he can be too complicated. I mentioned that. I don't think there are perfect candidates.

Thanks for letting me know that concepts mean nothing without results. That wasn't my point, and you probably know that (or I hope you do).

It's been everywhere though. He stunk at AU, stinks at ND, despite it being his third year. Stunk with the Falcons. He just hasn't ever had any really good seasons to fall back on.

He was at AU for a cup of coffee (one year with Chizik).

He's definitely struggled at ND more than I expected him to, so I'll concede that one.

Atlanta:

During VanGorder's stint with the Falcons, the organization achieved unprecedented heights, posting four consecutive winning seasons, a franchise first, including playoff appearances in 2008, 2010 and 2011. His defenses consistently showed marked improvements along the way.
Helping the Falcons to a 10-6 regular season record in 2011, VanGorder's defense finished the regular season second in the NFL in red zone defense, sixth in rushing defense (97.0 ypg), and 12th in total defense (333.6 ypg).
In 2010, the Falcons defense finished 10th in the NFL in rushing defense allowing 105.9 yards per game, which ranked fifth in the NFC. The run defense was not the only part of the defense that showed improvement in 2010. VanGorder's defense ranked in the top five in the NFL in scoring defense (18.0, 5th), turnover differential (+14, 3rd) and interceptions (22, 4th), marking highs for VanGorder's defense during his tenure.



His defenses were 22nd, 25th, 16th, and 12th and then he got fired. Par for the course for him: mediocre.

He took the 8th ranked defense and dropped to 31st and then in the 70s and back to the thirties at ND.

His one season at AU is excusible, but nonetheless it was wretched.

I feel like I'm talking to two guys on opposite ends of the table here, but I'll repeat what I noted to Kc:

Mediocre NFL defensive coordinator should not be something that keeps him from being great here. He dropped the ND defense because he changed everything they did. Like, the opposite defense. He's gotten better now.

In any case, I'm projecting what he'd do with our current and future athletes. I think he can lead a top unit. And, his style (more than anything) fits. Just needs to slow his roll on complicated blitz packages in college.
 
Context. Why has he produced less than optimal results recently? Could it be that he had a front that had been recruited to implement a 2-gap system? Could it be that he just transitioned guys suited to play a totally different type of [strength] system to an upfield system? Could it be for another reason? Part of the reason, surely, is that he can be too complicated. I mentioned that. I don't think there are perfect candidates.

Thanks for letting me know that concepts mean nothing without results. That wasn't my point, and you probably know that (or I hope you do).

It's been everywhere though. He stunk at AU, stinks at ND, despite it being his third year. Stunk with the Falcons. He just hasn't ever had any really good seasons to fall back on.

He was at AU for a cup of coffee (one year with Chizik).

He's definitely struggled at ND more than I expected him to, so I'll concede that one.

Atlanta:

During VanGorder's stint with the Falcons, the organization achieved unprecedented heights, posting four consecutive winning seasons, a franchise first, including playoff appearances in 2008, 2010 and 2011. His defenses consistently showed marked improvements along the way.
Helping the Falcons to a 10-6 regular season record in 2011, VanGorder's defense finished the regular season second in the NFL in red zone defense, sixth in rushing defense (97.0 ypg), and 12th in total defense (333.6 ypg).
In 2010, the Falcons defense finished 10th in the NFL in rushing defense allowing 105.9 yards per game, which ranked fifth in the NFC. The run defense was not the only part of the defense that showed improvement in 2010. VanGorder's defense ranked in the top five in the NFL in scoring defense (18.0, 5th), turnover differential (+14, 3rd) and interceptions (22, 4th), marking highs for VanGorder's defense during his tenure.



His defenses were 22nd, 25th, 16th, and 12th and then he got fired. Par for the course for him: mediocre.

He took the 8th ranked defense and dropped to 31st and then in the 70s and back to the thirties at ND.

His one season at AU is excusible, but nonetheless it was wretched.

I feel like I'm talking to two guys on opposite ends of the table here, but I'll repeat what I noted to Kc:

Mediocre NFL defensive coordinator should not be something that keeps him from being great here. He dropped the ND defense because he changed everything they did. Like, the opposite defense. He's gotten better now.

In any case, I'm projecting what he'd do with our current and future athletes. I think he can lead a top unit. And, his style (more than anything) fits. Just needs to slow his roll on complicated blitz packages in college.

Again, he's in his third year there. If your defense cannot turn around after 3 years, then you aren't a very good coach.

He was in the 30s his first year, and then got worse, so it's misleading to say "he's gotten better".....he's back where he was the first year.

I think we have all learned that if a guy has a history of doing one thing his entire career, it is very unlikely that he is going to suddenly change and be better b/c he wears orange and green. There is nothing in this man's last 10 years of coaching to indicate he will lead a top unit. It's no different from assuming Charlie Strong would be elite here. Every shred of evidence says otherwise.
 
When I hear "too complex", I cross that DC off my list. As for Aranda, his shceme might be unique to him, and he will be promoted soon.

Give me Harlon Barnett. Its old Miami defense and he is new enough, that he should be here for a while. His scheme relies on a position group that is a area of supreme strength in south florida recruiting. Barnett also played and coach that group. One word, symmetry. The Hiring of coach Kool shores up an area of relative weakness. Plus Kool's insistence on constant qb pressure works to further maximize big play opportunities on the backend. Again, symmetry.

Barnett, you can bank on him. :)
 
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It's been everywhere though. He stunk at AU, stinks at ND, despite it being his third year. Stunk with the Falcons. He just hasn't ever had any really good seasons to fall back on.

He was at AU for a cup of coffee (one year with Chizik).

He's definitely struggled at ND more than I expected him to, so I'll concede that one.

Atlanta:

During VanGorder's stint with the Falcons, the organization achieved unprecedented heights, posting four consecutive winning seasons, a franchise first, including playoff appearances in 2008, 2010 and 2011. His defenses consistently showed marked improvements along the way.
Helping the Falcons to a 10-6 regular season record in 2011, VanGorder's defense finished the regular season second in the NFL in red zone defense, sixth in rushing defense (97.0 ypg), and 12th in total defense (333.6 ypg).
In 2010, the Falcons defense finished 10th in the NFL in rushing defense allowing 105.9 yards per game, which ranked fifth in the NFC. The run defense was not the only part of the defense that showed improvement in 2010. VanGorder's defense ranked in the top five in the NFL in scoring defense (18.0, 5th), turnover differential (+14, 3rd) and interceptions (22, 4th), marking highs for VanGorder's defense during his tenure.



His defenses were 22nd, 25th, 16th, and 12th and then he got fired. Par for the course for him: mediocre.

He took the 8th ranked defense and dropped to 31st and then in the 70s and back to the thirties at ND.

His one season at AU is excusible, but nonetheless it was wretched.

I feel like I'm talking to two guys on opposite ends of the table here, but I'll repeat what I noted to Kc:

Mediocre NFL defensive coordinator should not be something that keeps him from being great here. He dropped the ND defense because he changed everything they did. Like, the opposite defense. He's gotten better now.

In any case, I'm projecting what he'd do with our current and future athletes. I think he can lead a top unit. And, his style (more than anything) fits. Just needs to slow his roll on complicated blitz packages in college.

Again, he's in his third year there. If your defense cannot turn around after 3 years, then you aren't a very good coach.

He was in the 30s his first year, and then got worse, so it's misleading to say "he's gotten better".....he's back where he was the first year.

I think we have all learned that if a guy has a history of doing one thing his entire career, it is very unlikely that he is going to suddenly change and be better b/c he wears orange and green. There is nothing in this man's last 10 years of coaching to indicate he will lead a top unit. It's no different from assuming Charlie Strong would be elite here. Every shred of evidence says otherwise.

We're not going to agree on this one, so I'll let it go. This isn't like hoping D'ono turns into a guy who runs a scheme founded on an aggressive mentality. This is projecting a guy - whose Xs and Os even you generally agree with - who ran the 12th ranked defense in the NFL as someone who can have a great defense here. There is sufficient evidence for me to project he'd make our unit look great: (1) Xs and Os match our athletes, (2) has transitioned back to college and even dealt with transitioning a 2-gap defense to his style, and (3) aggressive philosophy.

But, yes, I get it. You want all of that + recent results. Aranda fits that, but there are also questions around him as well.
 
He was at AU for a cup of coffee (one year with Chizik).

He's definitely struggled at ND more than I expected him to, so I'll concede that one.

Atlanta:

During VanGorder's stint with the Falcons, the organization achieved unprecedented heights, posting four consecutive winning seasons, a franchise first, including playoff appearances in 2008, 2010 and 2011. His defenses consistently showed marked improvements along the way.
Helping the Falcons to a 10-6 regular season record in 2011, VanGorder's defense finished the regular season second in the NFL in red zone defense, sixth in rushing defense (97.0 ypg), and 12th in total defense (333.6 ypg).
In 2010, the Falcons defense finished 10th in the NFL in rushing defense allowing 105.9 yards per game, which ranked fifth in the NFC. The run defense was not the only part of the defense that showed improvement in 2010. VanGorder's defense ranked in the top five in the NFL in scoring defense (18.0, 5th), turnover differential (+14, 3rd) and interceptions (22, 4th), marking highs for VanGorder's defense during his tenure.



His defenses were 22nd, 25th, 16th, and 12th and then he got fired. Par for the course for him: mediocre.

He took the 8th ranked defense and dropped to 31st and then in the 70s and back to the thirties at ND.

His one season at AU is excusible, but nonetheless it was wretched.

I feel like I'm talking to two guys on opposite ends of the table here, but I'll repeat what I noted to Kc:

Mediocre NFL defensive coordinator should not be something that keeps him from being great here. He dropped the ND defense because he changed everything they did. Like, the opposite defense. He's gotten better now.

In any case, I'm projecting what he'd do with our current and future athletes. I think he can lead a top unit. And, his style (more than anything) fits. Just needs to slow his roll on complicated blitz packages in college.

Again, he's in his third year there. If your defense cannot turn around after 3 years, then you aren't a very good coach.

He was in the 30s his first year, and then got worse, so it's misleading to say "he's gotten better".....he's back where he was the first year.

I think we have all learned that if a guy has a history of doing one thing his entire career, it is very unlikely that he is going to suddenly change and be better b/c he wears orange and green. There is nothing in this man's last 10 years of coaching to indicate he will lead a top unit. It's no different from assuming Charlie Strong would be elite here. Every shred of evidence says otherwise.

We're not going to agree on this one, so I'll let it go. This isn't like hoping D'ono turns into a guy who runs a scheme founded on an aggressive mentality. This is projecting a guy - whose Xs and Os even you generally agree with - who ran the 12th ranked defense in the NFL as someone who can have a great defense here. There is sufficient evidence for me to project he'd make our unit look great: (1) Xs and Os match our athletes, (2) has transitioned back to college and even dealt with transitioning a 2-gap defense to his style, and (3) aggressive philosophy.

But, yes, I get it. You want all of that + recent results. Aranda fits that, but there are also questions around him as well.

But what you are saying is not at all true. The 12th ranked defense in the NFL is slightly above average. One season out of 4, the rest were below average.

His X's and O's can be as flashy and fancy as you want: they don't work that well though, as evidenced by not a single top 10 defense since 2001. Not in the NFL, not in college.

Thirdly, if your defense at a major brand program (who btw recently had several top ten defenses) after 3 years is still in the thirties, that means you are not a very good coach. How many years does he need to install his system? Perhaps if it was less complex it wouldn't take a minimum of four years?

Miami runs a 2-gap 3-4. Extremely similar to th Diaco defense, both came from Groh. Since we know it takes BVG a minimum of at least 4 years to improve his defense coming from a 2-gap 3-4, are you willing to wait 4 years for him to maybe have a top 25 defense at Miami?
 
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His defenses were 22nd, 25th, 16th, and 12th and then he got fired. Par for the course for him: mediocre.

He took the 8th ranked defense and dropped to 31st and then in the 70s and back to the thirties at ND.

His one season at AU is excusible, but nonetheless it was wretched.

I feel like I'm talking to two guys on opposite ends of the table here, but I'll repeat what I noted to Kc:

Mediocre NFL defensive coordinator should not be something that keeps him from being great here. He dropped the ND defense because he changed everything they did. Like, the opposite defense. He's gotten better now.

In any case, I'm projecting what he'd do with our current and future athletes. I think he can lead a top unit. And, his style (more than anything) fits. Just needs to slow his roll on complicated blitz packages in college.

Again, he's in his third year there. If your defense cannot turn around after 3 years, then you aren't a very good coach.

He was in the 30s his first year, and then got worse, so it's misleading to say "he's gotten better".....he's back where he was the first year.

I think we have all learned that if a guy has a history of doing one thing his entire career, it is very unlikely that he is going to suddenly change and be better b/c he wears orange and green. There is nothing in this man's last 10 years of coaching to indicate he will lead a top unit. It's no different from assuming Charlie Strong would be elite here. Every shred of evidence says otherwise.

We're not going to agree on this one, so I'll let it go. This isn't like hoping D'ono turns into a guy who runs a scheme founded on an aggressive mentality. This is projecting a guy - whose Xs and Os even you generally agree with - who ran the 12th ranked defense in the NFL as someone who can have a great defense here. There is sufficient evidence for me to project he'd make our unit look great: (1) Xs and Os match our athletes, (2) has transitioned back to college and even dealt with transitioning a 2-gap defense to his style, and (3) aggressive philosophy.

But, yes, I get it. You want all of that + recent results. Aranda fits that, but there are also questions around him as well.

But what you are saying is not at all true. The 12th ranked defense in the NFL is slightly above average. One season out of 4, the rest were below average.

His X's and O's can be as flashy and fancy as you want: they don't work that well though, as evidenced by not a single top 10 defense since 2001. Not in the NFL, not in college.

Thirdly, if your defense at a major brand program, who btw recently had several top ten defenses, after 3 years is still in the thirties, that means you are not a very good coach. How many years does he need to install his system? Perhaps if it was less complex it wouldn't take a minimum of four years?

Miami runs a 2-gap 3-4. Extremely similar to th Diaco defense, both came from Groh. Since we know it takes BVG a minimum of at least 4 years to improve his defense coming from a 2-gap 3-4, are you willing to wait 4 years for him to maybe have a top 25 defense at Miami?

I'm not going to go back and forth with you. So I'll just clarify a couple things. Headed out shortly. All of your evidence on his "average" status has revolved around "total defense" stats. If I were so inclined, I'd talk about his top 5 (NFL) and top 3 (college) scoring defenses. I'm not talking about flashy Xs and Os. I'm talking about nearly the exact Xs and Os you're talking about in the other thread. And, we don't know for sure that it'd take him the same transition here that it took him to flip ND. Firstly, because our players are actually already built for his system. Secondly, because I'd imagined he learned something.

You don't like him. You think his results and resume wouldn't translate to a good defense here. I got it. I disagree. Neither of us will probably ever find out, but I still want his Xs and Os and overall style here from the person we will get.
 
FYI. Notre Dame fans say that their player are having problems picking up Van Gorders complicated scheme.
 
FYI. Notre Dame fans say that their player are having problems picking up Van Gorders complicated scheme.

Welp I've changed my mind.

That and he looks like he wears nothing but a trench coat outside elementary schools.
 
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Ok Lu if you are saying you want a guy who runs Under/Over type defense, I'm with you. Lot of good coaches out there who do it.

BVG is not one of those good coaches, however, but yes I like that system.
 
This is the type I hope we hire as our defensive coordinator.

4-3 Over and Under fronts. More importantly, upfield one-gap defense. This is a guy with blitz packages for days. Disguises for days. Complex, but players get to play aggressively.

It's not a knock on any other rumored candidate. Just the type of guy I hope Richt is able to grab.

He coached under Richt as well so lets hope they have been in touch... recently!
 
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