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Uncalled Holding Penalties Against Our Defensive Linemen

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CaneFan79 said:
LuCane and I had a discussion about this last year:

https://www.canesinsight.com/thread/duke-game-primer-acc-officiating-bias-proven/113883

LuCane opined there was a ton of holding Last Year and we are discussing it again This Year, as he predicted.

Based on the ACC's documented biases in the report linked in the thread (here it is for easy reference:http://www.sloansportsconference.co.../SSAC15-RP-Poster-Paper-Referee-Analytics.pdf)
I don't see any easy solution.
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That was a good discussion. Thanks for linking.

Unfortunately, I can't help but feel the same as I did last year, when I thought the holding would be worse this year (which it was, by a good margin). It's unlikely to change. We can only worry about what we can control. And, yes, it sucks.
 
No_Fly_Zone said:
KWConch said:
Richt needs to get a copy of every game ,go through them mark the holdings and take it to the ACC office.Now not all holding is gonna be called in any game but if he can show 100 holding situations and only say 20 were called he can make his case.

Problem Is the ACC and the officials seem to already be hellbent on making life as hard as possible on us so will it make it worse?
Click to expand...

So I read this post and my gut reaction was there's no way there were anywhere near 20 holding calls against opposing offenses this year. This got me wondering, how many holding calls were there called against opposing offenses this year... the answer is pretty remarkable.

Using E$PN's play-by-play breakdown of each game, it appears holding was called against opposing offenses only 8 times (I did not count holding penalties called in our favor on special teams, or clipping/tripping/other OL cheating) in our 13 games. Only 1 holding penalty was called against Clemson's, Wisconsin's, and Duke's offenses. 2 against F$U's offense. And 3 against Toledo. That's zero offensive holding penalties called against Pitt, UVA, ND, VT, UNC, GT, BCU, and Syracuse.

According to TeamRankings.com, Miami allowed a whopping 80.1 opponent plays per game. Over 13 games, that's about 1040 total plays (though I believe that stat includes punts and field goal attempts). Even assuming team's averaged 10 punts+fg attempts against us (which amounts to a conservative 130 plays) and discounting those, that's still 910 offensive plays against us. That's 1 offensive holding penalty called every 113.75 offensive snaps.

That number seemed light to me so I started looking for comparisons. I could not find any in college football, but in the 2016 season in the NFL, teams averaged 22.5 offensive holding penalties. That's 1.41 holding penalties per game, on average. Miami was getting offensive holding penalties in its favor at less than half that rate (.62/game). Again, not quite an apples to apples comparison, but it provides some context.

Conventional wisdom regarding the relationship between teams getting high sack totals and holding penalties (i.e., that defenses getting more sacks get more holding calls in their favor as offensive linemen will often hold when beaten) also produces a head-scratcher. Miami is currently leading the NCAA with 3.38 sacks per game. Something just does not add up...
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Wow, thanks for running through that. Putting numbers to it really makes the issue stand out.

Sent from my TI-83 Plus using Tapatalk
 
going to the acc does nothing. Hving it in the media...ie Herald, Sun Sentinel, Palm Beach Post up to the nc papers would mean more.

Im two years in on this. Im a former ol that watch line play more thanmost during a game...we get no leeway or holding penalties...quite frankly i was mad at richt because he should have went off like this from early in the year. That nice guy sh*t gets u nowhere. He should literally be complaining in every press conference, every radio interview all that sh*t. **** Saban is complaining about stuff that just last yr he was against.(not winning your conference getting in).Now dude is complaining about practice time (after he essentially got an extra week of bowl practice and a week off not playing in conf title) yet he uses the media to complain and he isnt even a likable dude.

In one game RJ Mcintosh football jersey looked like a jersey shore "bro" tank top and he didnt get any holding calls in that particular game..sh*t is crazy.
 
So what is the motive for this conspiracy against one of the five most visible/popular programs in all of CFB? Why would the ACC promote this grand plan to cripple its most popular draw? The world is just jealous of your squad so everyone tries to cheat it in obscure and ineffective ways whenever they can? Seriously? You are telling me that the deck is stacked against Miami? Please.

Guess what, sometimes refs miss calls. I would be shocked if UW had more than 10-15 holding calls go their way this season. Good teams adjust to the way the game is called and find a way to win. Get some tougher D lineman who won't be washed out of the play by NFL caliber Olines and can fight off a block and through a hold. UW has been held all season, including nearly every play in the Orange Bowl, yet they expect it, adjust to how the flow of the game is going, and overcome the calls/lack-there-of. The refs let the players decide the outcome of that game, they were swallowing their whistles both ways as you would hope they would do in a big time game like that.

I don't remember Vilma or Reed or Sapp b'ing about how they never got calls from the refs to bail them out when they couldn't stop an average QB from carving them up. They manned up and went out and made a play. Hold, no hold it didn't matter, they were going to fly around and wreck your O, something this Miami D isn't quite capable of doing. That isn't a conspiracy, it is simply a sign that The U isn't The U just yet
 
I usually @ every NCAA/orangebowl/ACC twitter account when i see the videos posted about how our dline is getting raped. Not sure what else we can do.
 
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Johnkester59 said:
So what is the motive for this conspiracy against one of the five most visible/popular programs in all of CFB? Why would the ACC promote this grand plan to cripple its most popular draw? The world is just jealous of your squad so everyone tries to cheat it in obscure and ineffective ways whenever they can? Seriously? You are telling me that the deck is stacked against Miami? Please.

Guess what, sometimes refs miss calls. I would be shocked if UW had more than 10-15 holding calls go their way this season. Good teams adjust to the way the game is called and find a way to win. Get some tougher D lineman who won't be washed out of the play by NFL caliber Olines and can fight off a block and through a hold. UW has been held all season, including nearly every play in the Orange Bowl, yet they expect it, adjust to how the flow of the game is going, and overcome the calls/lack-there-of. The refs let the players decide the outcome of that game, they were swallowing their whistles both ways as you would hope they would do in a big time game like that.

I don't remember Vilma or Reed or Sapp b'ing about how they never got calls from the refs to bail them out when they couldn't stop an average QB from carving them up. They manned up and went out and made a play. Hold, no hold it didn't matter, they were going to fly around and wreck your O, something this Miami D isn't quite capable of doing. That isn't a conspiracy, it is simply a sign that The U isn't The U just yet
Click to expand...

I wish you new guys would learn to read the prior posts in threads and links with the threads. Case in point is Post #21 above, which contained this link: http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/SSAC15-RP-Poster-Paper-Referee-Analytics.pdf.

Since you were lazy before, here is some salint points:

From the referenced study:

"Particularly given the betting line bias of the ACC in-conference, there is reason to believe that the ACC handicaps its stronger teams despite the financial incentives to do the opposite. Why does the ACC engage in this behavior and have these biases among officials? One possible explanation is the reputation of the ACC as a basketball conference with its four founding member North Carolina institutions (Duke, UNC, Wake Forest, and NC State) yielding the most political influence; internal ACC power may be threatened by non-founding schools with strong football that drive much of its revenue."

Your popularity rational is bogus. The ACC, headed by a commissioner (John Swofford) who: A) Is from NC B) Played Football at UNC, C) Hired ACC Officiating Head Dennis Hennigan and can fire Dennis Hennigan, isn't.

The $EC's former comish, Mike Slive, is an Upstate New Yorker and had no existing biases; he made sure the most competitive team for a particular year got the calls they need (Think Ole' Miss DT who got a 15 yard Personnel Foul call against him when the UF OT player threw him to the ground when UF failed to convert on a 4th down during their last NC run).

The study even brings this up: "...former National Football League (NFL) referee Mike Pereira accusing the SEC of nefarious game-rigging for its top performing teams." Slive knew how to build a broad base of teams who would be in the national conversation. Swofford doesn't care about that, he has a confirmation bias blind spot and nobody in the ACC challenges him on it.

Miami's huge misfortune in joining the ACC was being placed in the same division as Duke and UNC.

You can wipe that egg of your face now.
 
Johnkester59 said:
So what is the motive for this conspiracy against one of the five most visible/popular programs in all of CFB? Why would the ACC promote this grand plan to cripple its most popular draw? The world is just jealous of your squad so everyone tries to cheat it in obscure and ineffective ways whenever they can? Seriously? You are telling me that the deck is stacked against Miami? Please.

Guess what, sometimes refs miss calls. I would be shocked if UW had more than 10-15 holding calls go their way this season. Good teams adjust to the way the game is called and find a way to win. Get some tougher D lineman who won't be washed out of the play by NFL caliber Olines and can fight off a block and through a hold. UW has been held all season, including nearly every play in the Orange Bowl, yet they expect it, adjust to how the flow of the game is going, and overcome the calls/lack-there-of. The refs let the players decide the outcome of that game, they were swallowing their whistles both ways as you would hope they would do in a big time game like that.

I don't remember Vilma or Reed or Sapp b'ing about how they never got calls from the refs to bail them out when they couldn't stop an average QB from carving them up. They manned up and went out and made a play. Hold, no hold it didn't matter, they were going to fly around and wreck your O, something this Miami D isn't quite capable of doing. That isn't a conspiracy, it is simply a sign that The U isn't The U just yet
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By swallowing their whistles they did control the outcome. It Negates the more athletic and faster teams advantage. No different than how bad weather and field conditions favor the team that’s better in the trenches. I’m not saying we don’t need to do better at overcoming but to not acknowledge that a bias weather on purpose or unknowingly exists is hard to believe. Unblockable D-ends and not held once in over 1000 snaps or 8 games? Come on.
 
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Guess what, sometimes refs miss calls.
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There is a huge diffierence between missing a call and having an idiot ref stand there and consistantly watch a guy getting the cobra clutch or playing twist a flex with a jersey every other play.
 
CaneFan79 said:
Johnkester59 said:
So what is the motive for this conspiracy against one of the five most visible/popular programs in all of CFB? Why would the ACC promote this grand plan to cripple its most popular draw? The world is just jealous of your squad so everyone tries to cheat it in obscure and ineffective ways whenever they can? Seriously? You are telling me that the deck is stacked against Miami? Please.

Guess what, sometimes refs miss calls. I would be shocked if UW had more than 10-15 holding calls go their way this season. Good teams adjust to the way the game is called and find a way to win. Get some tougher D lineman who won't be washed out of the play by NFL caliber Olines and can fight off a block and through a hold. UW has been held all season, including nearly every play in the Orange Bowl, yet they expect it, adjust to how the flow of the game is going, and overcome the calls/lack-there-of. The refs let the players decide the outcome of that game, they were swallowing their whistles both ways as you would hope they would do in a big time game like that.

I don't remember Vilma or Reed or Sapp b'ing about how they never got calls from the refs to bail them out when they couldn't stop an average QB from carving them up. They manned up and went out and made a play. Hold, no hold it didn't matter, they were going to fly around and wreck your O, something this Miami D isn't quite capable of doing. That isn't a conspiracy, it is simply a sign that The U isn't The U just yet
Click to expand...

I wish you new guys would learn to read the prior posts in threads and links with the threads. Case in point is Post #21 above, which contained this link: http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/SSAC15-RP-Poster-Paper-Referee-Analytics.pdf.

Since you were lazy before, here is some salint points:

From the referenced study:

"Particularly given the betting line bias of the ACC in-conference, there is reason to believe that the ACC handicaps its stronger teams despite the financial incentives to do the opposite. Why does the ACC engage in this behavior and have these biases among officials? One possible explanation is the reputation of the ACC as a basketball conference with its four founding member North Carolina institutions (Duke, UNC, Wake Forest, and NC State) yielding the most political influence; internal ACC power may be threatened by non-founding schools with strong football that drive much of its revenue."

Your popularity rational is bogus. The ACC, headed by a commissioner (John Swofford) who: A) Is from NC B) Played Football at UNC, C) Hired ACC Officiating Head Dennis Hennigan and can fire Dennis Hennigan, isn't.

The $EC's former comish, Mike Slive, is an Upstate New Yorker and had no existing biases; he made sure the most competitive team for a particular year got the calls they need (Think Ole' Miss DT who got a 15 yard Personnel Foul call against him when the UF OT player threw him to the ground when UF failed to convert on a 4th down during their last NC run).

The study even brings this up: "...former National Football League (NFL) referee Mike Pereira accusing the SEC of nefarious game-rigging for its top performing teams." Slive knew how to build a broad base of teams who would be in the national conversation. Swofford doesn't care about that, he has a confirmation bias blind spot and nobody in the ACC challenges him on it.

Miami's huge misfortune in joining the ACC was being placed in the same division as Duke and UNC.

You can wipe that egg of your face now.
Click to expand...

Come on now, that article from a decade ago is hardly some smoking gun proving that Miami is getting the short end of the calls. It shows that there are differences in officiating between conferences and those differences come from myriad sources. Hardly ground breaking stuff. They also use cross conference games as a stand in control, such as the Orange Bowl and its SEC refs for a B1G/ACC matchup, so...about that egg. lol

Basically that entire study found out the shocking truth that... Refs are human beings and are subject to the same whims and emotions that other human beings are subjected to.

"basketball-specific studies have analyzed bias on the basis of personal
animosity, height, age, play-off manipulation, fairness, home court advantage, race,
and so-called make-up calls."

"we found evidence that ACC officiating favors underdog teams, home teams, high prestige football
programs, and long-time founding members of the conference" How often do you think the home team is also the underdog? Who do the refs conspire for in the vast majority of games where the home team is favored?

Its hard to ref big time CFB, its a complicated game played at a blinding speed where entire seasons can come down to millimeters. Some refs are better than others. The conclusions that you quoted are the authors inference, not hard data points. I disagree and think that your study is not really relevant/weighty, not quite the same as being lazy.
 
Johnkester59 said:
CaneFan79 said:
Johnkester59 said:
So what is the motive for this conspiracy against one of the five most visible/popular programs in all of CFB? Why would the ACC promote this grand plan to cripple its most popular draw? The world is just jealous of your squad so everyone tries to cheat it in obscure and ineffective ways whenever they can? Seriously? You are telling me that the deck is stacked against Miami? Please.

Guess what, sometimes refs miss calls. I would be shocked if UW had more than 10-15 holding calls go their way this season. Good teams adjust to the way the game is called and find a way to win. Get some tougher D lineman who won't be washed out of the play by NFL caliber Olines and can fight off a block and through a hold. UW has been held all season, including nearly every play in the Orange Bowl, yet they expect it, adjust to how the flow of the game is going, and overcome the calls/lack-there-of. The refs let the players decide the outcome of that game, they were swallowing their whistles both ways as you would hope they would do in a big time game like that.

I don't remember Vilma or Reed or Sapp b'ing about how they never got calls from the refs to bail them out when they couldn't stop an average QB from carving them up. They manned up and went out and made a play. Hold, no hold it didn't matter, they were going to fly around and wreck your O, something this Miami D isn't quite capable of doing. That isn't a conspiracy, it is simply a sign that The U isn't The U just yet
Click to expand...

I wish you new guys would learn to read the prior posts in threads and links with the threads. Case in point is Post #21 above, which contained this link: http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/SSAC15-RP-Poster-Paper-Referee-Analytics.pdf.

Since you were lazy before, here is some salint points:

From the referenced study:

"Particularly given the betting line bias of the ACC in-conference, there is reason to believe that the ACC handicaps its stronger teams despite the financial incentives to do the opposite. Why does the ACC engage in this behavior and have these biases among officials? One possible explanation is the reputation of the ACC as a basketball conference with its four founding member North Carolina institutions (Duke, UNC, Wake Forest, and NC State) yielding the most political influence; internal ACC power may be threatened by non-founding schools with strong football that drive much of its revenue."

Your popularity rational is bogus. The ACC, headed by a commissioner (John Swofford) who: A) Is from NC B) Played Football at UNC, C) Hired ACC Officiating Head Dennis Hennigan and can fire Dennis Hennigan, isn't.

The $EC's former comish, Mike Slive, is an Upstate New Yorker and had no existing biases; he made sure the most competitive team for a particular year got the calls they need (Think Ole' Miss DT who got a 15 yard Personnel Foul call against him when the UF OT player threw him to the ground when UF failed to convert on a 4th down during their last NC run).

The study even brings this up: "...former National Football League (NFL) referee Mike Pereira accusing the SEC of nefarious game-rigging for its top performing teams." Slive knew how to build a broad base of teams who would be in the national conversation. Swofford doesn't care about that, he has a confirmation bias blind spot and nobody in the ACC challenges him on it.

Miami's huge misfortune in joining the ACC was being placed in the same division as Duke and UNC.

You can wipe that egg of your face now.
Click to expand...

Come on now, that article from a decade ago is hardly some smoking gun proving that Miami is getting the short end of the calls. It shows that there are differences in officiating between conferences and those differences come from myriad sources. Hardly ground breaking stuff. They also use cross conference games as a stand in control, such as the Orange Bowl and its SEC refs for a B1G/ACC matchup, so...about that egg. lol

Basically that entire study found out the shocking truth that... Refs are human beings and are subject to the same whims and emotions that other human beings are subjected to.

"basketball-specific studies have analyzed bias on the basis of personal
animosity, height, age, play-off manipulation, fairness, home court advantage, race,
and so-called make-up calls."

"we found evidence that ACC officiating favors underdog teams, home teams, high prestige football
programs, and long-time founding members of the conference" How often do you think the home team is also the underdog? Who do the refs conspire for in the vast majority of games where the home team is favored?

Its hard to ref big time CFB, its a complicated game played at a blinding speed where entire seasons can come down to millimeters. Some refs are better than others. The conclusions that you quoted are the authors inference, not hard data points. I disagree and think that your study is not really relevant/weighty, not quite the same as being lazy.
Click to expand...

Comprehension is not a strong suite, eh? Since when is 2015 a "Decade Ago." Yeah, I'm sure MIT would sponsor an "article." Nope, it's an analytical paper meticulously researched and far more beliavble than you anecdotal observations.
 
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KWConch said:
Richt needs to get a copy of every game ,go through them mark the holdings and take it to the ACC office.Now not all holding is gonna be called in any game but if he can show 100 holding situations and only say 20 were called he can make his case.

Problem Is the ACC and the officials seem to already be hellbent on making life as hard as possible on us so will it make it worse?
Click to expand...

Miami already gives game film of SUSPECT uncalled penalties, to the ACC. Nevertheless, I'm guessing that CORRUPT acc won't do anything about those penalties.

Oh, and one more notion. I opined previously that it was a BAD OMEN for Miami, when I learned those good ol' boy Johnny Rebel's from the SEC were refereeing the game. Yet I got ' thumbs downs, ' and was called out for being some dimwit weirdo ' conspiracy ' dude. Go figure.

Bottom line: the ACC, SEC, and the Big 12 to a lesser degree have some SHADY referee's. hUh. And dig this. I'd rather have ref's from the PAC-12, Mountain West, or even the MAC refereeing Miami games. But that's all a fantasy notion and what not. dUh.
 
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OrdunaDrive said:
KWConch said:
Richt needs to get a copy of every game ,go through them mark the holdings and take it to the ACC office.Now not all holding is gonna be called in any game but if he can show 100 holding situations and only say 20 were called he can make his case.

Problem Is the ACC and the officials seem to already be hellbent on making life as hard as possible on us so will it make it worse?
Click to expand...

He has done that. Earlier this season he mentioned in an interview that they send a dozen or so plays/game to the ACC for review, and that the ACC agrees with their grievances on about a third of them. Not sure what that affects, or how exactly officials are looped in, but the complaint was definitely lodged multiple times.
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Yet opposing offensive lines CONTINUED to get away with obvious holding calls since the FSU game! OUCH.:madstare:
 
mackjones said:
KWConch said:
Richt needs to get a copy of every game ,go through them mark the holdings and take it to the ACC office.Now not all holding is gonna be called in any game but if he can show 100 holding situations and only say 20 were called he can make his case.

Problem Is the ACC and the officials seem to already be hellbent on making life as hard as possible on us so will it make it worse?
Click to expand...

Miami already gives game film of SUSPECT uncalled penalties, to the ACC. Nevertheless, I'm guessing that CORRUPT acc won't do anything about those penalties.

Oh, and one more notion. I opined previously that it was a BAD OMEN for Miami, when I learned those good ol' boy Johnny Rebel's from the SEC were refereeing the game. Yet I got ' thumbs downs, ' and was called out for being some dimwit weirdo ' conspiracy ' dude. Go figure.

Bottom line: the ACC, SEC, and the Big 12 to a lesser degree have some SHADY referee's. hUh. And dig this. I'd rather have ref's from the PAC-12, Mountain West, or even the MAC refereeing Miami games. But that's all a fantasy notion and what not. dUh.
Click to expand...

I backed up your argument the SEC Refs were bad for a number of reasons, IIRC.

Look, I'm getting negged hard on a thread I started as a lark (GT chop-blocking causing our guys to leave). Why? Because everyone thinks linear and can't believe a kid would think that...Which is true in a logical world...But with street agents and handlers and family looking for a payout, it is certainly something one of these people would tell a 20-21 year old, with sincerity (fake or otherwise), to get them to declare for the draft.

Where human beings are involved, bias is a given and believing that these officials are men of the utmost integrity, is foolish
 
Johnkester59 said:
So what is the motive for this conspiracy against one of the five most visible/popular programs in all of CFB? Why would the ACC promote this grand plan to cripple its most popular draw? The world is just jealous of your squad so everyone tries to cheat it in obscure and ineffective ways whenever they can? Seriously? You are telling me that the deck is stacked against Miami? Please.

Guess what, sometimes refs miss calls. I would be shocked if UW had more than 10-15 holding calls go their way this season. Good teams adjust to the way the game is called and find a way to win. Get some tougher D lineman who won't be washed out of the play by NFL caliber Olines and can fight off a block and through a hold. UW has been held all season, including nearly every play in the Orange Bowl, yet they expect it, adjust to how the flow of the game is going, and overcome the calls/lack-there-of. The refs let the players decide the outcome of that game, they were swallowing their whistles both ways as you would hope they would do in a big time game like that.

I don't remember Vilma or Reed or Sapp b'ing about how they never got calls from the refs to bail them out when they couldn't stop an average QB from carving them up. They manned up and went out and made a play. Hold, no hold it didn't matter, they were going to fly around and wreck your O, something this Miami D isn't quite capable of doing. That isn't a conspiracy, it is simply a sign that The U isn't The U just yet
Click to expand...

your team got away with game changing holds, its unreasonable to ask defensive players to fight through illegal holds when a critical play would have been made without the illegal plays wisconsin got away with. Sapp wouldnt have had a hall of fame career if guys were allowed to just put him a rear naked choke every time he got past someone.
 
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