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Off-Topic Tier one Special mission unit; special operations; military

Memnon said:
The reason why Luttrell being found with full mags was a problem, is because he LIED & said he had gotten into a firefight with over 100+ taliban.

If you're engaging with an enemy target that has you surrounded on all sides as HE described, then while you're maneuvering to provide cover fire to bound back & di di mau to an emergency exfil, why would you have multiple mags if you're being closed in from every angle with enemy combatants firing AK's, PKM's & RPG's?

He also claimed that he fell several feet down the mountain/hill in the Korangal Valley, breaking several bones including his ribs, his femur, his collarbone, his back etc. & LOST his rifle & his kit. Which would mean that he shouldn't have any Mags because his JPC 1 or AVS would've been lost on the mountain in the fall.

Also, if you're a Navy SEAL, it's literally apart of their Frogmam ethos to NEVER leave their brothers behind. Even when under heavy enemy assault, they're not supposed to RUN & find cover by themselves. They may take cover to provide cover fire for their fellow teammates under duress & in that instance there's tactics that can be used to help gain the advantage back in their favor. Like 40mm, or CS, M-18 smoke grenades. You pop smoke to create visual cover & bound back as fast as you can to a safe spot, until you get comms & get an emergency evac.

If one of your teammates takes fire & gets hit, they're supposed to DRAG him with them. It's literally in their SQT.

So there's no scenario where a SEAL runs away from his teammates & gets lost from them while they're under heavy enemy fire & they all die, but he survives. They literally swear an oath to each other before they get their trident that they will DIE with each other on the battlefield if the situation ever gets too hairy.

How does a Navy SEAL who was allegedly ambushed by hundreds of Taliban fighters, NOT get shot, but somehow all of his teammates do??? That's like saying, "My whole team drowned out in the middle of the Ocean" Well how did you survive? "I swam to shore".

The fact is & it's been proven, basically everything Luttrell wrote about in his book & his account of the story was a lie. It was a well crafted story concocted by the command at NSW to turn a terribly gone wrong failed mission into a Hollywood movie as a means to boost Navy recruiting during the GWOT.

It was not a valiant heroic fight to the bitter end that he somehow by the grace of God survived. They were an inexperienced unit taking on a mission that had really bad Intel on, that was poorly planned & improperly executed. They were a reconnaissance team that didn't know anything about Urban/Mountainous Recon. Their area of particular specificity was NURO, AUV's & VBSS, they had no clue what they were doing in Afghanistan, in that particular region. As evidenced by the fact they were discovered & killed, which does not happen to Recce units, whether it's Army, Marines or AFSOC.

Somebody (most likely Marcus), incorrectly assessed the situation once they were discovered & fired off a shot that started the firefight, then panicked once he received return fire & hauled *** off the Mountain/Hill leaving his teammates behind. He went & hid, until nightfall in a surrounding village until Gulab found him & offered him quarters in his home, until the Rangers found him a couple days later.

That's why he was the "Lone survivor", because he left his teammates behind.
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Memnon - BROTHER - it's just my opinion, but I think there's a bit too much emphasis on how many mags he had. Our personal required ammo load was 420 rounds. I personally carried maybe around 120 extra rounds still in the boxes. If every round was in full mags - and they weren't - that's a good number for a either 21each of 20-round mags - or 14 mags loaded with 30 rounds. That's a fine number - but we didn't carry full mags to ensure they fed well, and by just underloading by a couple of rounds - we were actually carrying 18-round mags, or 28-round mags. That way, the follower wouldn't bind.

The dam*ed Army was holding back on 30-round mags to discourage guys from burning through ammo too quickly on full auto. So there was always a 30-round shortage that required some 20-round mags as well. That's for the regular infantry. Everyone that was short - was everyone's favorite buddy - as everyone asked to be the recipient of his 30-round mags.

My practice was to open up on full auto to scatter those downrange in either a sideways figure 8, or a Z shaped sweep with that first mag. THEN I flipped to semi-auto only. You can't reliably hit siht on full auto - except by sheer luck and accident.

Personal observation from a personal experience: After tracking three individuals for maybe an hour or hour thirty - we crossed our Area of Operations - and into the South Vietnamese Area of Operations - as we were hot on their trail - just minutes behind them. We were not supposed to cross that line - but we weren't about to stop, as we were so close.

We managed to sneak up this creek, and there were maybe 20-25 guys bathing, relaxing, just enjoying the water and shade. These moments were only dreamed of. The creek was just wide enough for two of us to have freedom of movement at once - and we bowled them down. Then all hail broke loose from above, and nearby.

We kicked over a Hornet's Nest. We numbered 28 - maybe 32 men total. I don't recall the exact number.

Two days later - we gathered back at the Firebase for a Debriefing. Scores of bunkers - and we were stunned to find out that we bit into the asc of the 33rd NVA Regiment.

Now to my point: When the Colonel stated the 33rd NVA Regiment we and we alone engaged numbered 900 men - Mr. Smartascc here, raised his hand, and asked, "Sir, are they sure about them being 900 men strong, because I personally could only see about 700." Everyone laughed including the Colonel - due to the absurdity of such a claim. They may have had 900 men there, but due to OUR surprise - and the terrain - there were very few that actually engaged.

They had the numbers to just bum rush us and roll over us in a minute and a half - but we only had to engage about an equal number at a time. Add in that foliage, vegetation, brush, trees, and vines severely limited what we could actually see. And that cut both ways - they couldn't see how many of us there were. We had to be a large force - or we wouldn't have engaged their 900-man strong Regiment! Limitations work both ways!

If he estimated 100 enemy - even though it may have been 20, 25, or 30 - that's not to say he personally got into a gunfight against 100. He's not saying that. Maybe his wording and phraseology could be improved - to be more accurate - but he probably didn't know for certain how many were there - and when it's a running gunfight - lots of chaos, noise, yelling, cursing, explosions sometimes - just a lot of confusion. I'm not a SEAL - not excusing anyone or blaming anyone - this was a disaster any way you look at it.

That ETHOS. That's a noble idea - but that assumes open territory and options. In broken territory/terrain, you can't always tell when someone gets hit - because you can't see him. That's ideal if your position is fixed - but when there are moving parts, maneuver, and YOU are surprised - as you just got ambushed - nobility concepts drop faster than bird siiht in a downdraft.

You clearly stated the reasons this was a disaster. I 100% agree.

And you stated something I was going to - YES! The narrative was polished by the Navy. Anytime there's inconsistencies in details - someone's manipulating the narrative. Who had more to gain or lose? Luttrell or the Navy? I think Luttrell's details got a bit sideways with what he was told to say. Truth is very often a Royal Bit ch. Who had the power? Luttrell or the Navy?

I don't think evidence is strong suggesting he just fired a round or a few - and then hauled asc. Because the ambushers knew that one managed to get away - and they searched for him. If he'd hauled asc - in broken terrain at the first exchange - it's a high percentage that no one would have known that one SEAL got away.

Running: Once, we needed to disengage, and since I was already up front just a tad - I said "we're not folding back. I'll hold this and give you a fast 30 seconds. Everyone - run! You have a 30-second head start."

It was a FAST 30 seconds. I ran toward our NDP like the others. Ran like the wind. Just before we got to the NDP, I passed a couple guys - and got the greatest compliment EVER!

Kenny, a black member told me, "Dam*! You passed me! You may be white - but you run black!" I'm proud of that one!

So Luttrell ran. With success. AFTER an operational disaster - from the top - down.
 
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UMFarArcher said:
Memnon - BROTHER - it's just my opinion, but I think there's a bit too much emphasis on how many mags he had. Our personal required ammo load was 420 rounds. I personally carried maybe around 120 extra rounds still in the boxes. If every round was in full mags - and they weren't - that's a good number for a either 21each of 20-round mags - or 14 mags loaded with 30 rounds. That's a fine number - but we didn't carry full mags to ensure they fed well, and by just underloading by a couple of rounds - we were actually carrying 18-round mags, or 28-round mags. That way, the follower wouldn't bind.

The dam*ed Army was holding back on 30-round mags to discourage guys from burning through ammo too quickly on full auto. So there was always a 30-round shortage that required some 20-round mags as well. That's for the regular infantry. Everyone that was short - was everyone's favorite buddy - as everyone asked to be the recipient of his 30-round mags.

My practice was to open up on full auto to scatter those downrange in either a sideways figure 8, or a Z shaped sweep with that first mag. THEN I flipped to semi-auto only. You can't reliably hit siht on full auto - except by sheer luck and accident.

Personal observation from a personal experience: After tracking three individuals for maybe an hour or hour thirty - we crossed our Area of Operations - and into the South Vietnamese Area of Operations - as we were hot on their trail - just minutes behind them. We were not supposed to cross that line - but we weren't about to stop, as we were so close.

We managed to sneak up this creek, and there were maybe 20-25 guys bathing, relaxing, just enjoying the water and shade. These moments were only dreamed of. The creek was just wide enough for two of us to have freedom of movement at once - and we bowled them down. Then all hail broke loose from above, and nearby.

We kicked over a Hornet's Nest. We numbered 28 - maybe 32 men total. I don't recall the exact number.

Two days later - we gathered back at the Firebase for a Debriefing. Scores of bunkers - and we were stunned to find out that we bit into the asc of the 33rd NVA Regiment.

Now to my point: When the Colonel stated the 33rd NVA Regiment we and we alone engaged numbered 900 men - Mr. Smartascc here, raised his hand, and asked, "Sir, are they sure about them being 900 men strong, because I personally could only see about 700." Everyone laughed including the Colonel - due to the absurdity of such a claim. They may have had 900 men there, but due to OUR surprise - and the terrain - there were very few that actually engaged.

They had the numbers to just bum rush us and roll over us in a minute and a half - but we only had to engage about an equal number at a time. Add in that foliage, vegetation, brush, trees, and vines severely limited what we could actually see.

If he estimated 100 enemy - even though it may have been 20, 25, or 30 - that's not to say he personally got into a gunfight against 100. He's not saying that. Maybe his wording and phraseology could be improved - to be more accurate - but he probably didn't know for certain how many were there - and when it's a running gunfight - lots of chaos, noise, yelling, cursing, explosions sometimes - just a lot of confusion. I'm not a SEAL - not excusing anyone or blaming anyone - this was a disaster any way you look at it.

That ETHOS. That's a noble idea - but that assumes open territory and options. In broken territory/terrain, you can't always tell when someone gets hit - because you can't see him. That's ideal if your position is fixed - but when there are moving parts, maneuver, and YOU are surprised - as you just got ambushed - nobility concepts drop faster than bird siiht in a downdraft.

You clearly stated the reasons this was a disaster. I 100% agree.

And you stated something I was going to - YES! The narrative was polished by the Navy. Anytime there's inconsistencies in details - someone's manipulating the narrative. Who had more to gain or lose? Luttrell or the Navy? I think Luttrell's details got a bit sideways with what he was told to say. Truth is very often a Royal Bit ch. Who had the power? Luttrell or the Navy?

I don't think evidence is strong suggesting know he just fired a round or a few - and then haul edasc. Because the ambushers knew that one managed to get away - and they searched for him. If he'd hauled asc - in broken terrain at the first exchange - it's a high percentage that no one would have known that one SEAL got away.

Running: Once, we needed to disengage, and since I was already sticking out up front just a tad - I said "we're not folding back. I'll hold this and give you a fast 30 seconds. Everyone - run! You have a 30-second head start."

It was a FAST 30 seconds. I ran toward our NDP like the others. Ran like the wind. Just before we got to the NDP, I passed a couple guys - and got the greatest compliment EVER!

Kenny, a black member told me, "Dam*! You passed me! You may be white - but you run black!" I'm proud of that one!

So Luttrell ran. With success. AFTER an operational disaster - from the top - down.
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I think you're misunderstanding the story.

Marcus said he fell from the top position on the Mountain that he was in while the Taliban fighters were closing in on their position.

He claims he fell basically 30-40ft off the side of this steep hill on the Mountain. During the fall, he claims he lost his rifle. his plate carrier chest rig, his entire kit, while also breaking nearly every bone in his upper torso & back.

This was proven as a lie.

It's not speculation. He LIED about those things happening. He didn't fall. He didn't lose his plate carrier & body armor.

The reason why he had his mags still is because he wasn't in the firefight that ensued. The Mags were still attached to his chest rig & they were there because he RAN AWAY during the firefight.

Navy SEALS are not trained to run away during a gun fight. They are specifically trained to stay & engage with the enemy & to provide cover for their teammates to ensure that they all can reach safety.

In the event that one of your teammates is hit, they are trained to go & get him, even in a Hail of gunfire.

If everyone sprawls out & runs in different directions, they have Invisio X-5 ComTac headsets to communicate with one another, so they can find each other's location.

The reason why he got separated from the rest of the unit, is because he RAN & left them behind, which is the exact opposite of what they're trained to do.

His account of the story was nothing but LIES. Hence, why he's alive & all his teammates are Dead. Because he chose self preservation over staying on the Battlefield & dying with his brothers, like they swear to do before they get their trident.
 
Memnon said:
I think you're misunderstanding the story.

Marcus said he fell from the top position on the Mountain that he was in while the Taliban fighters were closing in on their position.

He claims he fell basically 30-40ft off the side of this steep hill on the Mountain. During the fall, he claims he lost his rifle. his plate carrier chest rig, his entire kit, while also breaking nearly every bone in his upper torso & back.

This was proven as a lie.

It's not speculation. He LIED about those things happening. He didn't fall. He didn't lose his plate carrier & body armor.

The reason why he had his mags still is because he wasn't in the firefight that ensued. The Mags were still attached to his chest rig & they were there because he RAN AWAY during the firefight.

Navy SEALS are not trained to run away during a gun fight. They are specifically trained to stay & engage with the enemy & to provide cover for their teammates to ensure that they all can reach safety.

In the event that one of your teammates is hit, they are trained to go & get him, even in a Hail of gunfire.

If everyone sprawls out & runs in different directions, they have Invisio X-5 ComTac headsets to communicate with one another, so they can find each other's location.

The reason why he got separated from the rest of the unit, is because he RAN & left them behind, which is the exact opposite of what they're trained to do.

His account of the story was nothing but LIES. Hence, why he's alive & all his teammates are Dead. Because he chose self preservation over staying on the Battlefield & dying with his brothers, like they swear to do before they get their trident.
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I read that and understood it quite well.

I also understand that they were ambushed. That in itself - is a major disaster.

Entire armies have been destroyed in three hours by ambushes. Roman army lost 15,000 killed and 10,000 taken prisoner when Hannibal Barca ambushed them at Lake Trasimene. Three hours - thousands and thousands.

Ambushes are rough - if you're on the receiving end. And confusing.

He fell. Tumbled. Bounced. He got busted up some. He lost his team members or they lost him in the confusion. He lost some siht - he didn't lose some other siht. Then he ran? I would too!

I would bet a cup of coffee that he ran faster without his chest plate and some of the other crap he lost that you gotta carry - but suddenly have very little use for. I know I can.

Those team communications you mention? Apparently they didn't do much good for anyone - didn't prevent them from getting ambushed in the first place - but let's put all that on Luttrell. Team coms idn't help the others maneuver one bit. Didn't help the others to organize a quick disconnect.

Sometimes you can't get to a fellow soldier. I watched one burn up right in front of me. That one haunts me to this day. I couldn't do siht for him. Dying intentionally to uphold some noble concept in real time in a firefight - that's just boulschitt.

Look at what happened! They tried that! That helicopter crew and that team to the rescue? Dead! Why? Trying to force a leave no man behind without sufficient means.

Result? Deaths. Rushed in - even more killed. So this vapid concept needs temperament with a bit of intelligence and realism. Haste makes waste.

Once I determine it's time to un-asc my location, I want to run hard and fast - and I'll shuck some of the heavier items - and that's just common sense.

He had mags left? I always had mags left - even after an enthusiastic firefight. Never knew anyone that didn't.

Navy SEALS are trained to stick in a gunfight? That's something I've never heard of since Roman ships shackled rowers to the floor. Made sure they didn't have any options. Moment to moment priorities change in combat.

If idealism is the baseline - maybe the SEALS should do more land skills/ops training and less idealism training. Because they sure were unprepared. And that would include Luttrell.
 
UMFarArcher said:
I read that and understood it quite well.

I also understand that they were ambushed. That in itself - is a major disaster.

Entire armies have been destroyed in three hours by ambushes. Roman army lost 15,000 killed and 10,000 taken prisoner when Hannibal Barca ambushed them at Lake Trasimene. Three hours - thousands and thousands.

Ambushes are rough - if you're on the receiving end. And confusing.

He fell. Tumbled. Bounced. He got busted up some. He lost his team members or they lost him in the confusion. He lost some siht - he didn't lose some other siht. Then he ran? I would too!

I would bet a cup of coffee that he ran faster without his chest plate and some of the other crap he lost that you gotta carry - but suddenly have very little use for. I know I can.

Those team communications you mention? Apparently they didn't do much good for anyone - didn't prevent them from getting ambushed in the first place - but let's put all that on Luttrell. Team coms idn't help the others maneuver one bit. Didn't help the others to organize a quick disconnect.

Sometimes you can't get to a fellow soldier. I watched one burn up right in front of me. That one haunts me to this day. I couldn't do siht for him. Dying intentionally to uphold some noble concept in real time in a firefight - that's just boulschitt.

Look at what happened! They tried that! That helicopter crew and that team to the rescue? Dead! Why? Trying to force a leave no man behind without sufficient means.

Result? Deaths. Rushed in - even more killed. So this vapid concept needs temperament with a bit of intelligence and realism. Haste makes waste.

Once I determine it's time to un-asc my location, I want to run hard and fast - and I'll shuck some of the heavier items - and that's just common sense.

He had mags left? I always had mags left - even after an enthusiastic firefight. Never knew anyone that didn't.

Navy SEALS are trained to stick in a gunfight? That's something I've never heard of since Roman ships shackled rowers to the floor. Made sure they didn't have any options. Moment to moment priorities change in combat.

If idealism is the baseline - maybe the SEALS should do more land skills/ops training and less idealism training. Because they sure were unprepared. And that would include Luttrell.
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Okay, I'm gonna explain this one more time...

Marcus said he LOST his rifle & all of his kit in a steep fall off the Mountain - That was a lie.
When they found him, he still had all of his kit, which included the Mags.

The reason why that's significant, is because he said he didn't have any of those things. He made claims that he stayed in the fight trading fire with the enemy combatants until he ran out of ammo.

So when someone claims they ran out of ammo & you find them with ammo, what is that called???

Marcus said they were overrun by 80-200 Taliban - That was a lie.
It was only about 10 of them.

Marcus said the reason he got separated from the rest of the team is because he fell down the mountain so far that they completely lost his position - That was lie.

The reason he got separated from them, is because HE RAN AWAY.

He didn't provide suppressive fire to his teammates. He didn't engage in the firefight. He ran away & left them all behind. Maybe it's different for 60's era Army Nam Vets, but in 05, Navy SEALS aren't supposed to RUN away while their teammates are engaged in a firefight.
 
Memnon said:
Okay, I'm gonna explain this one more time...

Marcus said he LOST his rifle & all of his kit in a steep fall off the Mountain - That was a lie.
When they found him, he still had all of his kit, which included the Mags.

The reason why that's significant, is because he said he didn't have any of those things. He made claims that he stayed in the fight trading fire with the enemy combatants until he ran out of ammo.

So when someone claims they ran out of ammo & you find them with ammo, what is that called???

Marcus said they were overrun by 80-200 Taliban - That was a lie.
It was only about 10 of them.

Marcus said the reason he got separated from the rest of the team is because he fell down the mountain so far that they completely lost his position - That was lie.

The reason he got separated from them, is because HE RAN AWAY.

He didn't provide suppressive fire to his teammates. He didn't engage in the firefight. He ran away & left them all behind. Maybe it's different for 60's era Army Nam Vets, but in 05, Navy SEALS aren't supposed to RUN away while their teammates are engaged in a firefight.
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OK.

His initial after action report - he reported an estimated enemy number was 20-35.

Initial military intel estimated the number to be 10-20.

Official media reports FROM the military estimated to be 20.

In the Medal of Honor write up - the enemy number "more than 50" militia members.

A military journalist quotes a military intelligence report to be between 8-10 militia members.

Patrick Robinson claimed more than 200 in the book Sole Survivor.


The number reported and cited by military journalist Ed Darack was based on intelligence reports, aerial and eye-witness studies performed on material collected post-operation - from the men who were on the ground scouring the areas after the fact, and human intel gathered from Afghan intelligence.

Sounds to me like it was this Patrick Robinson is who made the "more than 200" claim.

Luttrell the last several years has suggested the book was a Navy project - and he's pretty much the victim of youth and having to go along to get along. I call boulschitt. He profited. The Navy profited.

I assumed that Marcus after the Navy sat down and wrote the book. Clearly, he didn't - he was still active when this came out. He's stated the Ghost Writer put it together as they would meet every week, the Navy wanted this tragedy told - like we all know they like to do.

I think early on, the Navy wanted to avoid a black eye, and jumped on this - just like the military has done for many decades. Think TOP GUN. TOMORROW NEVER DIES. ZERO DARK THIRTY. APOLLO 13. BLACK HAWK DOWN. Military support and funding. They selected some Ghost Writers - and ostensibly, Luttrell agreed on this one Ghost Writer.

He was still a young man. That means - easier to manipulate or less wise in what he agreed to. But still his decision.

There's so many different stories - that there are similarities and discrepancies as well as outright claims. It's possible that over the last six or more years, Luttrell is tired of explaining - and tending - TENDING - to tell more of the truth from the early days when this all occurred.

So - I'd say the Navy fabricated stuff, the Ghost Writer had some guidance from the Navy - and Luttrell stretched things out - and all parties gained.

Because this type of practice - is normal for the military. Turn tragedy into glory. Make it somewhat acceptable. Honorable.

You "forced" me into looking into something I'd just not paid attention to - but I also want to thank you as I wanted to know more about the controversies. I never previously knew there were so many!
 
UMFarArcher said:
OK.

His initial after action report - he reported an estimated enemy number was 20-35.

Initial military intel estimated the number to be 10-20.

Official media reports FROM the military estimated to be 20.

In the Medal of Honor write up - the enemy number "more than 50" militia members.

A military journalist quotes a military intelligence report to be between 8-10 militia members.

Patrick Robinson claimed more than 200 in the book Sole Survivor.


The number reported and cited by military journalist Ed Darack was based on intelligence reports, aerial and eye-witness studies performed on material collected post-operation - from the men who were on the ground scouring the areas after the fact, and human intel gathered from Afghan intelligence.

Sounds to me like it was this Patrick Robinson is who made the "more than 200" claim.

Luttrell the last several years has suggested the book was a Navy project - and he's pretty much the victim of youth and having to go along to get along. I call boulschitt. He profited. The Navy profited.

I assumed that Marcus after the Navy sat down and wrote the book. Clearly, he didn't - he was still active when this came out. He's stated the Ghost Writer put it together as they would meet every week, the Navy wanted this tragedy told - like we all know they like to do.

I think early on, the Navy wanted to avoid a black eye, and jumped on this - just like the military has done for many decades. Think TOP GUN. TOMORROW NEVER DIES. ZERO DARK THIRTY. APOLLO 13. BLACK HAWK DOWN. Military support and funding. They selected some Ghost Writers - and ostensibly, Luttrell agreed on this one Ghost Writer.

He was still a young man. That means - easier to manipulate or less wise in what he agreed to. But still his decision.

There's so many different stories - that there are similarities and discrepancies as well as outright claims. It's possible that over the last six or more years, Luttrell is tired of explaining - and tending - TENDING - to tell more of the truth from the early days when this all occurred.

So - I'd say the Navy fabricated stuff, the Ghost Writer had some guidance from the Navy - and Luttrell stretched things out - and all parties gained.

Because this type of practice - is normal for the military. Turn tragedy into glory. Make it somewhat acceptable. Honorable.

You "forced" me into looking into something I'd just not paid attention to - but I also want to thank you as I wanted to know more about the controversies. I never previously knew there were so many!
Click to expand...
@Memnon

 
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