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The Holding Call

OrangeBowlMagic

OrangeBowlMagic

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It’s being brought up in almost every thread so I went back and watched. There isn’t a perfect shot of the spot, but best I can tell, it would’ve been 4th and 8.

One thing I am 100.0% positive is it was NOT going to be 4th and 11. Lopez did a good job tight roping the sideline and he 100.0% got inside the marker to get inside 10 to go. I think it was about 4th and 8.

So, the decision is 4th and 8, or 3rd and 24? Probably a coin flip, tbh. I have no problem with taking the penalty there. Yes, 4th and 8 is obviously a low percentage conversion, but so is 3rd and 24. You have to think you hold them to a minimal gain, or force an incompletion, and now it’s 4th and 24 or close to it. Instead we miss 4 tackles and let them get 20 yards and it looks dumb.

But I don’t think this is some egregious coaching decision. You can’t criticize it in hindsight. In the moment, it’s probably a coin flip. If they get 8 yards to convert, we’re all sitting here saying Mario is a dumbass for not forcing them into a 3rd and 24.

But it was NOT 4th and 11. Yall gotta chill with that. He was for sure marked out right around 8 yards short. I don’t think there’s a wrong decision there, either way you have the offense in a bad spot and you just gotta get off the field. We didn’t.
 
OrangeBowlMagic said:
It’s being brought up in almost every thread so I went back and watched. There isn’t a perfect shot of the spot, but best I can tell, it would’ve been 4th and 8.

One thing I am 100.0% positive is it was NOT going to be 4th and 11. Lopez did a good job tight roping the sideline and he 100.0% got inside the marker to get inside 10 to go. I think it was about 4th and 8.

So, the decision is 4th and 8, or 3rd and 24? Probably a coin flip, tbh. I have no problem with taking the penalty there. Yes, 4th and 8 is obviously a low percentage conversion, but so is 3rd and 24. You have to think you hold them to a minimal gain, or force an incompletion, and now it’s 4th and 24 or close to it. Instead we miss 4 tackles and let them get 20 yards and it looks dumb.

But I don’t think this is some egregious coaching decision. You can’t criticize it in hindsight. In the moment, it’s probably a coin flip. If they get 8 yards to convert, we’re all sitting here saying Mario is a dumbass for not forcing them into a 3rd and 24.

But it was NOT 4th and 11. Yall gotta chill with that. He was for sure marked out right around 8 yards short. I don’t think there’s a wrong decision there, either way you have the offense in a bad spot and you just gotta get off the field. We didn’t.
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yeah, I agreee. Esplain me the kick from 54 lol
 
OrangeBowlMagic said:
It’s being brought up in almost every thread so I went back and watched. There isn’t a perfect shot of the spot, but best I can tell, it would’ve been 4th and 8.

One thing I am 100.0% positive is it was NOT going to be 4th and 11. Lopez did a good job tight roping the sideline and he 100.0% got inside the marker to get inside 10 to go. I think it was about 4th and 8.

So, the decision is 4th and 8, or 3rd and 24? Probably a coin flip, tbh. I have no problem with taking the penalty there. Yes, 4th and 8 is obviously a low percentage conversion, but so is 3rd and 24. You have to think you hold them to a minimal gain, or force an incompletion, and now it’s 4th and 24 or close to it. Instead we miss 4 tackles and let them get 20 yards and it looks dumb.

But I don’t think this is some egregious coaching decision. You can’t criticize it in hindsight. In the moment, it’s probably a coin flip. If they get 8 yards to convert, we’re all sitting here saying Mario is a dumbass for not forcing them into a 3rd and 24.

But it was NOT 4th and 11. Yall gotta chill with that. He was for sure marked out right around 8 yards short. I don’t think there’s a wrong decision there, either way you have the offense in a bad spot and you just gotta get off the field. We didn’t.
Click to expand...
It was the right decision to take the penalty, the wrong decision was missing four tackles. End of the day, we played with our food in the second half and we will get better from it. Needed a game like this to show, you don’t stop until the whistle blows. No more playing with your food with a big lead.
 
Gocanes1990 said:
yeah, I agreee. Esplain me the kick from 54 lol
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I can’t and have said multiple times that was flat wrong. Just a poor decision on that, 100%. In the moment I said punt but that’s wrong too. That’s a clear go. We were on the 36. Get 4 yards, your QB had competed 25 straight passes at one point for Christ’s sake.

That’s another thread though 😂

This one, I think was a fine decision. No issues.
 
MiamiFanDan said:
The other advantage - it also adds an extra play to help keep bleeding out the clock.
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Correct. Meant to mention that too. You’re right. But imo that’s a much smaller factor. But you are right, the clock runs at the ready for play after the holding call.

They had the ball on the 21, 3rd and 24. Lopez completes the ball to the 31, and Dunnigan whiffs, then 3 more tackles are missed. If he’s hit and dropped where he catches the ball and we had a defender coming up to make the play, it’s 4th and 14 and the decision is a clear win.
 
yeah go for it instead of kicking fg or take delay try to pooch… but best choice should have been go for it .. i would have declined the penalty myself but can also see the other side of the coin
 
Tinman64 said:
yeah go for it instead of kicking fg or take delay try to pooch… but best choice should have been go for it .. i would have declined the penalty myself but can also see the other side of the coin
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I’d have no issues declining it either. I think it’s a win either way and imo a very close decision, analytically. I just wanted to make the thread because people keep saying it was 4th and 11 (it absolutely was not) or it was a totally wrong decision (it absolutely was not). Tackle the kid on the catch and it’s 4th and 14.
 
NicKane said:
It was the right decision to take the penalty, the wrong decision was missing four tackles. End of the day, we played with our food in the second half and we will get better from it. Needed a game like this to show, you don’t stop until the whistle blows. No more playing with your food with a big lead.
Click to expand...
We didn't play with our food. We dumped our food on the floor and demanded dessert.
 
MiamiFanDan said:
The other advantage - it also adds an extra play to help keep bleeding out the clock.
Click to expand...
That’s what I thought too.

Offense was struggling at that point. OL was a mess and we’re either throwing a predictable bubble screen or handing the ball off to a true freshman RB.

Coaches are probably assuming we force them to throw something underneath, don’t miss 4 tackles, and we’re minimizing risk on offense.
 
OrangeBowlMagic said:
It’s being brought up in almost every thread so I went back and watched. There isn’t a perfect shot of the spot, but best I can tell, it would’ve been 4th and 8.

One thing I am 100.0% positive is it was NOT going to be 4th and 11. Lopez did a good job tight roping the sideline and he 100.0% got inside the marker to get inside 10 to go. I think it was about 4th and 8.

So, the decision is 4th and 8, or 3rd and 24? Probably a coin flip, tbh. I have no problem with taking the penalty there. Yes, 4th and 8 is obviously a low percentage conversion, but so is 3rd and 24. You have to think you hold them to a minimal gain, or force an incompletion, and now it’s 4th and 24 or close to it. Instead we miss 4 tackles and let them get 20 yards and it looks dumb.

But I don’t think this is some egregious coaching decision. You can’t criticize it in hindsight. In the moment, it’s probably a coin flip. If they get 8 yards to convert, we’re all sitting here saying Mario is a dumbass for not forcing them into a 3rd and 24.

But it was NOT 4th and 11. Yall gotta chill with that. He was for sure marked out right around 8 yards short. I don’t think there’s a wrong decision there, either way you have the offense in a bad spot and you just gotta get off the field. We didn’t.
Click to expand...
I believe it could have been as little as 4th and 6 or 7 with these ACC refs. The math is pretty clear that what we did was right even if it was going to be 4th and 10+.

The caveat there is our tackling was god awful which means high variance which would say don't give them two chances.

On the other hand, the extra down also costs them 15-20 seconds of game clock which isn't accounted for on the normal probability matrix.
 
I agree agreed with accepting the penalty and forcing a 3rd-and-24. I doubt Mario was planning on giving up nearly 20 yards on 3rd down to let Wake Forest decide if they wanted to go for a fourth and short. Which they converted because we can’t tackle.
 
Why is this even being debated? Whether Mario declined or not, Wake wasn’t coming off the field. They were absolutely going for it if it was 4th down. There was no choice they were out of time. So on 3rd down they picked up 15 yards. So even if it was 4th and 8 it was still a first down. Bottom line is defense didn’t do its job. This is such a silly thing to debate. They picked up 15 on the next play!!!!
 
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