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Program builders vs schematic coaches

WestEndzone said:
What does this even mean? Program builders vs schemers? Why is it mutually exclusive? Lmao

Straw man meant to rationalize failure.
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I think the distinction exists in as much as for example Dan Mullen is an Xs and Os guy while being weak at recruiting, people skills, leading an organization etc. But yea the successful offensive coaches have "building" skills too, Riley and Heupel can clearly teach their system consistently and recruit talent to fit it.

On paper Jimbo should be able to do it all but his Xs and Os are dated and he seems to have a lot of years where his team can't execute his offense and doesn't fully understand his fancy playbook, gonna demote Jimbo down to "builder".
 
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sfcane2 said:
It’s pretty interesting how coaches with dynamic X’s and O’s seem to have instant turnarounds- USC, Tennessee, Mississippi, etc but program builders always have rough first years- Saban, Carroll, Kirby, Dabo, etc. I’m not sure what explains it but it seems that part of it is the increased physicality during practice takes awhile for players to adjust to.

We’re obviously seeing it this year.
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For what it's worth the Xs and Os gurus never seem to win Natty while the program builders build programs that compete for the natty every year
 
Ou
DTP said:
Why do “program builders” have to be ****** football coaches? Why can’t a guy recruit AND have an effective scheme? Especially when their employer is giving them a blank check for coordinators?

You don’t need to get worse to get better. That’s a garbage excuse.
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Our coordinator have been fine for the most part, a couple bumbs along the way but I think our issues have been more roster based then coaching based.
 
What I've suggested is that if Mario can build the foundation and he is provided the resources he wants (which it appears are being met), you get into "too big to fail" land. (You just have to hope that we don't become Texas who has relatively struggled notwithstanding significant investment/resources.)
 
When you talk about “program builders” you’re essentially talking about Saban and Smart. Guys who are more known for acquiring talent than actual coaching acumen. Maybe you can add Dabo Swinney to that list. Those guys are only as good as the coordinators they hire though. Saban thought he could just put talent everyone until his defenses started getting exposed by dynamic offenses. So what did he do? He hired Lane Kiffin to make his team a championship level team again. Eventually you’ll play someone with a similar talent level. If you’re not doing something innovative on both sides of the ball, you’ll lose to the guy who is. Alabama has a lot more talent than Tennessee does but UT was able to beat them by being more dynamic.
 
@DTP how are you suggesting Saban doesn't have coaching acumen? They are consistently excellent and well prepared schematically on both sides of the ball and have been for forever.

I think Saban is both builder and xs and os.
 
Rellyrell said:
He was 5-5 yr 1
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19th hardest schedule in CFB and he still won 1 more game in his first season in a shortened SEC only schedule than his predecessor. And Kiffin beat #11Indiana to finish the season. Let's talk again if Mario wins 8 games this season or beats a ranked team.

If you think swallowing Cristobals gravy makes you UM Superfan #1 and a better UM fan than me, then you win and I grant the title to you.
 
TimeBum said:
19th hardest schedule in CFB and he still won 1 more game in his first season in a shortened SEC only schedule than his predecessor. And Kiffin beat #11Indiana to finish the season. Let's talk again if Mario wins 8 games this season or beats a ranked team.

If you think swallowing Cristobals gravy makes you UM Superfan #1 and a better UM fan than me, then you win and I grant the title to you.
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What’s sad is that u’re supposed to be a Hurricane fan, yet u’ve come up w/ more of a defense of a coach from another team than a little bit. This has chit to do w being some “Super Fan” vs. ur weirdo infatuation w/ Kiffin. If anyone is the toughest on coaches on this board it’s me, so knock it the fck off.
 
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AlexCane said:
@DTP how are you suggesting Saban doesn't have coaching acumen? They are consistently excellent and well prepared schematically on both sides of the ball and have been for forever.

I think Saban is both builder and xs and os.
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I think there was a time when he was a superior X and O coach. He was the defensive architect at MSU, LSU and Alabama. But the game has changed to where his system wasn’t really effective anymore and he’s had coordinators handling the show for years. At this point, he’s pretty much just handling recruiting and media relations. Without a huge talent advantage, his teams would be average at best.
 
TimeBum said:
19th hardest schedule in CFB and he still won 1 more game in his first season in a shortened SEC only schedule than his predecessor. And Kiffin beat #11Indiana to finish the season. Let's talk again if Mario wins 8 games this season or beats a ranked team.

If you think swallowing Cristobals gravy makes you UM Superfan #1 and a better UM fan than me, then you win and I grant the title to you.
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The disrespect Lane gets on here by some is crazy. Can't coach then it was can't recruit meanwhile Mario is taking Lane's scraps (Parrish etc) and he's our best back and all Lane did was RECRUIT over him and landed Zach Evans.

Why didn't Mario land Evans with all that NIL money flowing since he wants to pound the rock? Evans and true freshman Quinshon Judkins are averaging over 6 yards per carry. Seems like that was a good eval from Lane picking up Judkins who was not highly rated. Funny thing is Mario's wet dream is what Ole Miss is doing with being third in the nation in rushing. But yeah Lane can't coach lol.
 
razrcane said:
The disrespect Lane gets on here by some is crazy. Can't coach then it was can't recruit meanwhile Mario is taking Lane's scraps (Parrish etc) and he's our best back and all Lane did was RECRUIT over him and landed Zach Evans.

Why didn't Mario land Evans with all that NIL money flowing since he wants to pound the rock? Evans and true freshman Quinshon Judkins are averaging over 6 yards per carry. Seems like that was a good eval from Lane picking up Judkins who was not highly rated. Funny thing is Mario's wet dream is what Ole Miss is doing with being third in the nation in rushing. But yeah Lane can't coach lol.
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Lane can coach, no doubt about it. The man knows how to put his players in advantageous situations. But Evans was a portal grab, as a recruiter he's pretty mid and the recruiting rankings reflect that, no idea why, might just be bad at closing the high end prospects cuz he has a system I'd want to play in if I were a recruit.
 
DTP said:
When you talk about “program builders” you’re essentially talking about Saban and Smart. Guys who are more known for acquiring talent than actual coaching acumen. Maybe you can add Dabo Swinney to that list. Those guys are only as good as the coordinators they hire though. Saban thought he could just put talent everyone until his defenses started getting exposed by dynamic offenses. So what did he do? He hired Lane Kiffin to make his team a championship level team again. Eventually you’ll play someone with a similar talent level. If you’re not doing something innovative on both sides of the ball, you’ll lose to the guy who is. Alabama has a lot more talent than Tennessee does but UT was able to beat them by being more dynamic.
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Dabo is 100% program builder. Bobby Bowden was a program builder.

Meyer is arguably both. Saban is both.

When was the last time a straight Xs and Os guys won a national title? Spurrier in 1996? Dennis before that? It just doesn't happen.
 
Damiencane86 said:
Lane can coach, no doubt about it. The man knows how to put his players in advantageous situations. But Evans was a portal grab, as a recruiter he's pretty mid and the recruiting rankings reflect that, no idea why, might just be bad at closing the high end prospects cuz he has a system I'd want to play in if I were a recruit.
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The portal is a part of recruiting these days. You think kids just pick a place without teams recruiting them? Even the recruiting rankings factor portal acquisitions into account. LOL at he's mid. Former recruiter of the year and last year's overall class (factoring in the portal) he had the #15 class at ole miss. As a reference point Miami was #13. So if he's mid so is Mario.

The only time ole miss had top 10 classes was when they were dropping major bags and they got popped for it. Heck the star studded Tunsil/Treadwell/Nkemdiche class was only ranked 8th according to 247. Ole Miss isn't Miami. Considering the obstacles he faces by being at ole miss he is recruiting more than just mid.
 
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razrcane said:
The portal is a part of recruiting these days. You think kids just pick a place without teams recruiting them? Even the recruiting rankings factor portal acquisitions into account. LOL at he's mid. Former recruiter of the year and last year's overall class (factoring in the portal) he had the #15 class at ole miss. As a reference point Miami was #13. So if he's mid so is Mario.

The only time ole miss had top 10 classes was when they were dropping major bags and they got popped for it. Heck the star studded Tunsil/Treadwell/Nkemdiche class was only ranked 8th according to 247. Ole Miss isn't Miami. Considering the obstacles he faces by being at ole miss he is recruiting more than just mid.
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Ok so he's good snagging guys out of the portal to inflate his roughly average success recruiting the high school ranks. Let's keep in mind you're comparing the last class at Ole Miss to Mario arriving here in December and closing from 69th ranked class to a top 15 finish while Ole Miss finished 17th, Mario held off Lane directly for Khaumauri Rodgers within Lanes backyard. Lane is a good coach but he's not on the same level as Mario as far as recruiting goes.
 
I’d just like to know why people think cristobal is an established program builder…he’s definitely not a scheme guy so that’s all I can think of. And both saban and smart are scheme guys too, just not offensively
 
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razrcane said:
The disrespect Lane gets on here by some is crazy. Can't coach then it was can't recruit meanwhile Mario is taking Lane's scraps (Parrish etc) and he's our best back and all Lane did was RECRUIT over him and landed Zach Evans.

Why didn't Mario land Evans with all that NIL money flowing since he wants to pound the rock? Evans and true freshman Quinshon Judkins are averaging over 6 yards per carry. Seems like that was a good eval from Lane picking up Judkins who was not highly rated. Funny thing is Mario's wet dream is what Ole Miss is doing with being third in the nation in rushing. But yeah Lane can't coach lol.
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Parrish is our best RB because the two better guys we have are injured.

Nobody has argued that Kiffin can't call a good game. The danger was whether he could stay out of co-ed ***** / coke long enough to keep his job in Miami - and whether he'd **** off to the NFL at the first chance.
 
Why is the jimz joes vs x and os always such a black and white argument? The grey area is what determines everything.
 
Damiencane86 said:
Ok so he's good snagging guys out of the portal to inflate his roughly average success recruiting the high school ranks. Let's keep in mind you're comparing the last class at Ole Miss to Mario arriving here in December and closing from 69th ranked class to a top 15 finish while Ole Miss finished 17th, Mario held off Lane directly for Khaumauri Rodgers within Lanes backyard. Lane is a good coach but he's not on the same level as Mario as far as recruiting goes.
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Maybe. But I never said he was as good as Mario. My point was that he is better than people on here are giving him credit for. He’s definitely not “mid” as some claim. Lane has been recruiter of the year. Mario has not. We will find out how good of a recruiter Mario truly is with this class. If he can keep it together my hats off to him. He did a very good job in a short amount of time last year. I do believe Mario is a very good recruiter and is a grinder. But saying Lane is mid flys in the face of facts. Saying he has had avg success in recruiting high school ranks is ridiculous. Also, Lane “flipped” Carswell from his Miami commitment. He also has been on record saying he is putting a priority onthe portal (basically free agency). If Mario had gotten Zach Evans people would have been crowning him even more.

Edit. For facts his classes at USC all under crippling NCAA sanctions were the following: 3, 3, 8, 12. Wake me up when Mario has a top 3 class.
 
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