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Program builders vs schematic coaches

sfcane2 said:
It’s pretty interesting how coaches with dynamic X’s and O’s seem to have instant turnarounds- USC, Tennessee, Mississippi, etc but program builders always have rough first years- Saban, Carroll, Kirby, Dabo, etc. I’m not sure what explains it but it seems that part of it is the increased physicality during practice takes awhile for players to adjust to.

We’re obviously seeing it this year.
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Yeah. I've had about all the program building I can handle.

Rather play to win - and build as we can - less embarrassingly.

It took Schnellenberger 5 years.

It took the only other program builder - Butch Davis - 5 years.

Siht takes too long!

Play to win. Win with what you got. Build with what you can get. As you get it.
 
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SouthParkCane said:
He is a an elite line coach but he’s not a freak game day manager. The ebbs and flows of the game are lost on him
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Like the old Soviet Union looking at us across the Fulda Gap - the couldn't alter or veer from their pre-war plans. Regardless.

Stubborn looks almost identical to Stupid.
 
CChe21 said:
He proved himself as a quality coach at a ****ttastic place.



There are lots of elite position coaches. As far as "How far" he's gotten, again, a lot of people have gotten "This far"........Where is he exactly? We've had 5 coaches get 'This far' within our own program and fail. To answer your question, no he is not a good X's and O's coach. Nothing in his resume speaks to that.
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What do u consider a good X n Os coach, how do u measure that?
 
E1k said:
What do u consider a good X n Os coach, how do u measure that?
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That's a great question. How do we quantify and measure that? I'd like to think it is a coach that has demonstrated coordinator level results at a high level on one of the two sides of the ball. A coach that can on his own take control of that aspect of a team/program and not depend on anyone else for those results. "Playcaller".....with demonstrated success and industry wide respect in that regard. I think that we can all pretty much assume or know what that type of coach is and who they are. It's no big secret. 20 years ago I expressed to friends that Mario needs to be a coordinator and develop a coaching identity. He hasn't.....he's leaned on personality and that sort of thing. We'll see how that plays out. Typically, X's and O's guys are geeks and obsessive about their craft on that side of the ball.
 
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SouthParkCane said:
He is a an elite line coach but he’s not a great game day manager. The ebbs and flows of the game are lost on him
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His greatest strength as a coach (that’s not recruiting) will also be his biggest downfall if he doesn’t take a step back and just focus on being a ceo. His fingerprints are all over every single offense he’s fielded as a hc because of his obsession with physicality and hard nose football
 
Miami[]_[]Smoke said:
Dabo Kirby and Carroll were all first time college head coaches, Carroll had nfl experience but the other two had no HC experience. Plus Kirby was 8-4, that’s not bad for year one
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Dabo is also an exception. he was the interim coach that kept the job. he also reset his entire staff following an embarrassing bowl loss.

Carroll like you said coached in the NFL before being fired. he resurrected his career at USC.

Kirby as a first time HC did lose 4 but landed a top 3 class (were not doing that and wed have to win out basically to end w 4 losses) and had UGA in the title game losing in OT to Bama.
 
WestEndzone said:
What does this even mean? Program builders vs schemers? Why is it mutually exclusive? Lmao

Straw man meant to rationalize failure.
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-I hear you (and I'm definitely not against cutting with a thinner blade...), but perhaps the OP meant scheme guy v. Culture changer (which like you said, isn't mutually exclusive with scheme, etc. so perhaps he meant to compare and distinguish coaches who primarily focus on scheme from those that do so with culture-- which, like you said doesn't necessarily exclude scheme... Either way, I think both of you made a good point).
 
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Culture builders basically know how to build a program for long term success- development, recruiting, hiring assistants etc.

Saw some posts about the great defensive coaches- saban, Kirby, Carroll. Unfortunately we all know that defense is about the players. So you can be a great X’s and O’s guy on defense but without the players it’s not going to make a difference.
 
hoops156 said:
Dabo is also an exception. he was the interim coach that kept the job. he also reset his entire staff following an embarrassing bowl loss.

Carroll like you said coached in the NFL before being fired. he resurrected his career at USC.

Kirby as a first time HC did lose 4 but landed a top 3 class (were not doing that and wed have to win out basically to end w 4 losses) and had UGA in the title game losing in OT to Bama.
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Kirby landed a Top 3 class...with a Top 2 $$$$ Bag routine.
 
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