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Program builders vs schematic coaches

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sfcane2

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It’s pretty interesting how coaches with dynamic X’s and O’s seem to have instant turnarounds- USC, Tennessee, Mississippi, etc but program builders always have rough first years- Saban, Carroll, Kirby, Dabo, etc. I’m not sure what explains it but it seems that part of it is the increased physicality during practice takes awhile for players to adjust to.

We’re obviously seeing it this year.
 
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Miami[]_[]Smoke said:
Dabo Kirby and Carroll were all first time college head coaches, Carroll had nfl experience but the other two had no HC experience. Plus Kirby was 8-4, that’s not bad for year one
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Kirby inherited a solid UGA program where Richt was approaching the end(The program was underachieving compared to where they had been a couple of years before), but the program was in good hands, they dropped an additional game from the year before.

That said, historically, schematic coaches have more immediate success, because they will get the most out of the guys they have through scheme. The issue is that long term, a lot of them can't recruit at a high enough level, which limits what they can do afterwards. That's what makes guys like Urban Meyer so unique. They are not only schematically good, they have shown the ability to recruit at a high enough level to where they can dominate. Nick Saban said it perfectly when someone asked him about building a staff "You have to have scheme(IE Teachers) guys, and you have to have recruiters. It's rare to find someone that is great at both teaching/utilizing scheme and recruiting. Your best salespeople tend to be lacking in the teaching department, and your best teachers usually struggle on the recruiting trail"
 
sfcane2 said:
It’s pretty interesting how coaches with dynamic X’s and O’s seem to have instant turnarounds- USC, Tennessee, Mississippi, etc but program builders always have rough first years- Saban, Carroll, Kirby, Dabo, etc. I’m not sure what explains it but it seems that part of it is the increased physicality during practice takes awhile for players to adjust to.

We’re obviously seeing it this year.
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So far, only one of those groups has won championships.

That said, it would be nice to have a schematic advantage for once this decade. Or two.
 
supersaiyanshel said:
So far, only one of those groups has won championships.

That said, it would be nice to have a schematic advantage for once this decade. Or two.
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Saban won big at every place he has been. MSU, LSU (National Title), Bama and is an elite level defensive mind
Carroll was an NFL coach and defensive specialist
Smart was/is an NC level elite defensive mind and coach
Dabo is the outlier of the group.

IDK what Mario's strengths are a a football coach. I've never seen him be elite at anything in particular other than possibly recruiting, but there are lot of "Recruiters" out there. I've been following Mario for 20+ years and he's always been a good talker. He does not have elite coaching skills. He needs to be an elite manager of coaches and recruiter of ELITE assistants/coordinators
 
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CChe21 said:
It's all nonsense. There is winning and losing. That's it. Do you win? Or do you lost? There is no such thing as "Program builder" or "Schematic coach".
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lucious lyon wtf GIF
 
CChe21 said:
Saban won big at every place he has been. MSU, LSU (National Title), Bama and is an elite level defensive mind
Carroll was an NFL coach and defensive specialist
Smart was/is an NC level elite defensive mind and coach
Dabo is the outlier of the group.

IDK what Mario's strengths are a a football coach. I've never seen him be elite at anything in particular other than possibly recruiting, but there are lot of "Recruiters" out there. I've been following Mario for 20+ years and he's always been a good talker. He does not have elite coaching skills. He needs to be an elite manager of coaches and recruiter of ELITE assistants/coordinators
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Yes Dabo is an outlier bc he’s not an X’s and O’s Guy. He won bc he kept his coaching staff intact for so long and had elite QB play. Without Venables he doesn’t win a single championship and without Deshaun or Lawrence he doesn’t either. You can throw in that ridiculous senior class that all came back. All of those things are super rare.
 
sfcane2 said:
It’s pretty interesting how coaches with dynamic X’s and O’s seem to have instant turnarounds- USC, Tennessee, Mississippi, etc but program builders always have rough first years- Saban, Carroll, Kirby, Dabo, etc. I’m not sure what explains it but it seems that part of it is the increased physicality during practice takes awhile for players to adjust to.

We’re obviously seeing it this year.
Click to expand...

Let's be honest, Riley's "turnaround" at USC is the result of an underachieving program bringing in a top flight quarterback from OU and the Biletnikoff winner from the portal—as well as the fact the PAC-12 is trash and the Trojans don't play on ranked team all season.

Heupel is also in his second year at Tennessee, not his first. The Volunteers went 7-6 last year and are 5-0 out the gate this season.

Kiffin is also in his third year at Ole Miss, not his first—going 5-5 in 2020, before 10-3 last year and hot out the gate at 6-0 this year.

If you're going to try and compare these guys to Cristobal, then you start the clock year two like Heupel and Kiffin are getting judged by, or you give him some of the puzzle pieces Riley landed in Troy as it's hardly an apples to apples comparison

Let's see what Miami looks like six weeks into the 2023 as it's pretty premature for a team that went 7-5 last year and 21-15 under the last regime all together.
 
CChe21 said:
Saban won big at every place he has been. MSU, LSU (National Title), Bama and is an elite level defensive mind
Carroll was an NFL coach and defensive specialist
Smart was/is an NC level elite defensive mind and coach
Dabo is the outlier of the group.

IDK what Mario's strengths are a a football coach. I've never seen him be elite at anything in particular other than possibly recruiting, but there are lot of "Recruiters" out there. I've been following Mario for 20+ years and he's always been a good talker. He does not have elite coaching skills. He needs to be an elite manager of coaches and recruiter of ELITE assistants/coordinators
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What did Saban win big while at MSU?
 
CChe21 said:
Saban won big at every place he has been. MSU, LSU (National Title), Bama and is an elite level defensive mind
Carroll was an NFL coach and defensive specialist
Smart was/is an NC level elite defensive mind and coach
Dabo is the outlier of the group.

IDK what Mario's strengths are a a football coach. I've never seen him be elite at anything in particular other than possibly recruiting, but there are lot of "Recruiters" out there. I've been following Mario for 20+ years and he's always been a good talker. He does not have elite coaching skills. He needs to be an elite manager of coaches and recruiter of ELITE assistants/coordinators
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Is he not an elite oline coach? And do we really think he’d get this far as a guy who isn’t a good X n Os coach lol?
 
This board told me just recruit elite players and u win, some on here say sabans and kirby dont do anything great scheme wise lol
 
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ItsAUThing.com said:
Kiffin is also in his third year at Ole Miss, not his first—going 5-5 in 2020, before 10-3 last year and hot out the gate at 6-0 this year.
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Here's Ole Miss's 2020 schedule. This was the covid season where the entire slate was SEC. Tell me what looks even remotely as embarrassing as Cristobal losing at home to MTSU.

20221009_141626.jpg

In terms of excuses for a 5-5 record, Kiffin taking over a 4 win team and not having a full spring and summer to work with players due to covid is somewhat plausible.
 
JamesQuall said:
What did Saban win big while at MSU?
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He proved himself as a quality coach at a ****ttastic place.
E1k said:
Is he not an elite oline coach? And do we really think he’d get this far as a guy who isn’t a good X n Os coach lol?
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There are lots of elite position coaches. As far as "How far" he's gotten, again, a lot of people have gotten "This far"........Where is he exactly? We've had 5 coaches get 'This far' within our own program and fail. To answer your question, no he is not a good X's and O's coach. Nothing in his resume speaks to that.
 
ItsAUThing.com said:
Let's be honest, Riley's "turnaround" at USC is the result of an underachieving program bringing in a top flight quarterback from OU and the Biletnikoff winner from the portal—as well as the fact the PAC-12 is trash and the Trojans don't play on ranked team all season.

Heupel is also in his second year at Tennessee, not his first. The Volunteers went 7-6 last year and are 5-0 out the gate this season.

Kiffin is also in his third year at Ole Miss, not his first—going 5-5 in 2020, before 10-3 last year and hot out the gate at 6-0 this year.

If you're going to try and compare these guys to Cristobal, then you start the clock year two like Heupel and Kiffin are getting judged by, or you give him some of the puzzle pieces Riley landed in Troy as it's hardly an apples to apples comparison

Let's see what Miami looks like six weeks into the 2023 as it's pretty premature for a team that went 7-5 last year and 21-15 under the last regime all together.
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Mario walked into a dream of a QB situation in a bad conference.. like Riley..
 
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