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OT: The NCAA is f#cked up

TemplarCane said:
Amateur? Free education? Let’s see a player tell Saban, Meyer, or Richt he’s sitting out spring practice to focus on his education, pursuing a meaningful degree. The scholarship, providing the ‘free education’, would be pulled quick. Or at least not renewed.

Amateur My ****.
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Uh, yeah.

The terms of the contract is to play football. So if they don't, you know, play football then they would be in breach.

Simple concept.
 
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TimeB0mb said:
If that kind of money can be thrown around, then the college players should be considered to be playing in a professional league. That means they should get paid.
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This is incredibly stupid.

Scholarships athletes are not employees. They're college students playing a sport for a bevy of benefits. What's more is that 99% of them have no value on a football field whatsoever.

For instance, how much would you be willing to pay Bar Milo to play football?
 
Mark Little said:
So this is not just stupid now, it shows incredible ignorance of what a non-profit is.
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Your reading comprehension skills need work. You apparently don't know understand the actual legal definition of non profit or how the IRS evaluates them. If Alabama claims they have to pay Saban a higher salary just because revenues are going up, then it starts looking a lot more like a for profit model. Why? Because one of the main characteristics of a non profit used by the IRS is that a non profit must use its surplus of the revenues to further achieve its ultimate objective, rather than distributing its income to the organization's shareholders, leaders, or members. If Bama is paying Saban more because he is earning the school more, that is using the surplus of revenues to give income to a leader or member of the organization. That removes the school out of the definition of a non profit.
 
TimeB0mb said:
Your reading comprehension skills need work. You apparently don't know understand the actual legal definition of non profit or how the IRS evaluates them. If Alabama claims they have to pay Saban a higher salary just because revenues are going up, then it starts looking a lot more like a for profit model. Why? Because one of the main characteristics of a non profit used by the IRS is that a non profit must use its surplus of the revenues to further achieve its ultimate objective, rather than distributing its income to the organization's shareholders, leaders, or members. If Bama is paying Saban more because he is earning the school more, that is using the surplus of revenues to give income to a leader or member of the organization. That removes the school out of the definition of a non profit.
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**** Little is one of the biggest ***aloons on CIS. Don't waste your keyboard.
 
TimeB0mb said:
Your reading comprehension skills need work. You apparently don't know understand the actual legal definition of non profit or how the IRS evaluates them. If Alabama claims they have to pay Saban a higher salary just because revenues are going up, then it starts looking a lot more like a for profit model.
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So now you're claiming that revenues going up makes a non-profit look like a for-profit?

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.
 
TimeB0mb said:
Why? Because one of the main characteristics of a non profit used by the IRS is that a non profit must use its surplus of the revenues to further achieve its ultimate objective, rather than distributing its income to the organization's shareholders, leaders, or members.
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Paying staff is always considered as part of furthering a non-profits ultimate objective.
 
Cane Dynasty said:
**** Little is one of the biggest ***aloons on CIS. Don't waste your keyboard.
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I had a lengthy response drafted to him (quite easy to look up IRS decisions regarding revocation of non profit tax exemption due to excessive compensation) but realized that facts don't matter to trolls. Thanks for the heads up!
 
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TimeB0mb said:
I had a lengthy response drafted but realized that facts don't matter to trolls. Thanks for the heads up!
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I actually read that post before you deleted it. It was really good info for those of us that don't have legal expertise.
 
Alabama is a 501(c)(3) organization

A 501(c)(3) organization is a corporation, trust, unincorporated association, or other type of organization exempt from federal income tax under section 501(c)(3) of Title 26 of the United States Code. It is one of the 29 types of 501(c) nonprofit organizations in the US.

501(c)(3) tax-exemptions apply to entities that are organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, literary, or educational purposes, for testing for public safety, to foster national or international amateur sports competition, for the prevention of cruelty to children, women, or animals. 501(c)(3) exemption applies also for any non-incorporated community chest, fund, cooperating association or foundation organized and operated exclusively for those purposes.There are also supporting organizations—often referred to in shorthand form as "Friends of" organizations.

Due to the tax deductions associated with donations, loss of 501(c)(3) status can be highly challenging if not fatal to a charity's continued operation, as many foundations and corporate matching programs do not grant funds to a charity without such status, and individual donors often do not donate to such a charity due to the unavailability of the deduction.
 
TemplarCane said:
Alabama is a 501(c)(3) organization

A 501(c)(3) organization is a corporation, trust, unincorporated association, or other type of organization exempt from federal income tax under section 501(c)(3) of Title 26 of the United States Code. It is one of the 29 types of 501(c) nonprofit organizations in the US.

501(c)(3) tax-exemptions apply to entities that are organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, literary, or educational purposes, for testing for public safety, to foster national or international amateur sports competition, for the prevention of cruelty to children, women, or animals. 501(c)(3) exemption applies also for any non-incorporated community chest, fund, cooperating association or foundation organized and operated exclusively for those purposes.There are also supporting organizations—often referred to in shorthand form as "Friends of" organizations.

Due to the tax deductions associated with donations, loss of 501(c)(3) status can be highly challenging if not fatal to a charity's continued operation, as many foundations and corporate matching programs do not grant funds to a charity without such status, and individual donors often do not donate to such a charity due to the unavailability of the deduction.
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0VniTRf8Hzg3rSDoAKD6Xc&cshid=1532982421656

I don't know if that link works but is IRS opinion on excessive compensation. One of the the tests is looking at the total compensation package for employees including ancillary benefits like rent and royalties.

Bama boosters pay off Saban's $3.1M home

In no other walk of life except college football would the IRS allow such a farce.

Imagine the public outcry if you set up a charity to help wounded veterans, raised 80 million a year, then the board for the charity (your friends) voted to pay you $200,000. Then these same board members , on the side, set up a separate non profit booster club and paid you 8 million, plus bought you a house because they like how popular you are with veterans and you have great celebrity connections due to high viz position. They, no sh#t, would actually get tax write-offs for giving you a house. IRS would quash that scam in a heartbeat, but when it comes to college football, the corrupt NCAA is in bed with the corrupt state governments (and the very rich board members and boosters wield massive influence over the state governments) so it is allowed.
 
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TimeB0mb said:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0VniTRf8Hzg3rSDoAKD6Xc&cshid=1532982421656

I don't know if that link works but is IRS opinion on excessive compensation. One of the the tests is looking at the total compensation package for employees including ancillary benefits like rent and royalties.

Bama boosters pay off Saban's $3.1M home

In no other walk of life except college football would the IRS allow such a farce.

Imagine the public outcry if you set up a charity to help wounded veterans, raised 80 million a year, then the board for the charity (your friends) voted to pay you $200,000. Then these same board members , on the side, set up a separate non profit booster club and paid you 8 million, plus bought you a house because they like how popular you are with veterans and you have great celebrity connections due to high viz position. They, no sh#t, would actually get tax write-offs for giving you a house. IRS would quash that scam in a heartbeat, but when it comes to college football, the corrupt NCAA is in bed with the corrupt state governments (and the very rich board members and boosters wield massive influence over the state governments) so it is allowed.
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I would enjoy hearing a tax attorney specializing in educational nonprofits discuss how this works. In the document you linked there are a number of ways one could argue Saban’s compenation package is reasonable; nature of duties, background and experience, salary history, and contribution to organization’s success.

I dislike Bama as much as the next Canes fan. But if Richt won 5 national titles would we complain about a $8M salary? The U is a private institution but also a nonprofit.
 
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TemplarCane said:
I would enjoy hearing a tax attorney specializing in educational nonprofits discuss how this works. In the document you linked there are a number of ways one could argue Saban’s compenation package is reasonable; nature of duties, background and experience, salary history, and contribution to organization’s success.

I dislike Bama as much as the next Canes fan. But if Richt won 5 national titles would we complain about a $8M salary? The U is a private institution but also a nonprofit.
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True enough- it’s a judgment call. But one of the tests for reasonableness is a comparable private sector for-profit job. The comparable private sector job is the NFL Head Coach. We are assuming the profession is “head coaching” overall and not just college head coaching. Comparing one nonprofit head coach to another nonprofit head coach (like saying Michigan pays X amount, therefore Alabama can pay X amount) doesn’t make a lot of sense because the nonprofit head coach pay scale runs from a few hundred thousand for the head coach at the Little Sisters of the Blind University all the way to Alabama, whereas all NFL Head Coaches in the for profit private sector are all basically within the $6-10 million range with comparable responsibilities across the board.

Saban, as a college head coach making $8.3 million, makes 2 million more than the lowest paid NFL Head Coach. That’s just Saban’s salary alone. When you add in the free house and other paid for expenses, he could easily be making about $11 million per year total compensation. That is almost twice as much as a private sector NFL coach. So let’s look at responsibilities- every college coach that jumped to the NFL, then moved back has stated that the work demands in the “Not For Long” league far exceed that of a college coach. Spurrier, a national championship winning college coach, was notorious for his easy going schedule and having tee times built into his college “work schedule.” He couldn’t handle the works hours demanded by the NFL (I think Gruden said a NFL head coach gets about 4 hours a sleep per night during the season). You could even go so far as to say that a head coach at a small university without Alabama's resources has a FAR, FAR, FAR harder job than Saban, because he has to attempt to compete for a national championship without dozens of extra assistants and a massive financial and recruiting infrastructure behind him.

So how about coaching acumen? I guess you could argue that Saban is the GOAT college coach. But if you look at the comparable private sector, how does he fair against the private sector for-profit coaches? Well, wouldn’t you know, we can actually see how Saban stacked up in the NFL. He was a mediocre NFL head coach, who couldn’t handle the pressure of the NFL and fled back to college. So his coaching ability has been measured against his private sector counterparts and was shown to be average at best. So if the profession is head coaching, then I think Saban’s compensation is excessive for a non-profit employee.
 
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TimeB0mb said:
True enough- it’s a judgment call. But one of the tests for reasonableness is a comparable private sector for-profit job. The comparable private sector job is the NFL Head Coach. We are assuming the profession is “head coaching” overall and not just college head coaching. Comparing one nonprofit head coach to another nonprofit head coach (like saying Michigan pays X amount, therefore Alabama can pay X amount) doesn’t make a lot of sense because the nonprofit head coach pay scale runs from a few hundred thousand for the head coach at the Little Sisters of the Blind University all the way to Alabama, whereas all NFL Head Coaches in the for profit private sector are all basically within the $6-10 million range with comparable responsibilities across the board.

Saban, as a college head coach making $8.3 million, makes 2 million more than the lowest paid NFL Head Coach. That’s just Saban’s salary alone. When you add in the free house and other paid for expenses, he could easily be making about $11 million per year total compensation. That is almost twice as much as a private sector NFL coach. So let’s look at responsibilities- every college coach that jumped to the NFL, then moved back has stated that the work demands in the “Not For Long” league far exceed that of a college coach. Spurrier, a national championship winning college coach, was notorious for his easy going schedule and having tee times built into his college “work schedule.” He couldn’t handle the works hours demanded by the NFL (I think Gruden said a NFL head coach gets about 4 hours a sleep per night during the season). You could even go so far as to say that a head coach at a small university without Alabama's resources has a FAR, FAR, FAR harder job than Saban, because he has to attempt to compete for a national championship without dozens of extra assistants and a massive financial and recruiting infrastructure behind him.

So how about coaching acumen? I guess you could argue that Saban is the GOAT college coach. But if you look at the comparable private sector, how does he fair against the private sector for-profit coaches? Well, wouldn’t you know, we can actually see how Saban stacked up in the NFL. He was a mediocre NFL head coach, who couldn’t handle the pressure of the NFL and fled back to college. So his coaching ability has been measured against his private sector counterparts and was shown to be average at best. So if the profession is head coaching, then I think Saban’s compensation is excessive for a non-profit employee.
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You make some good points.

It would be interesting to see a court challenge to public and private university non-profit statuses. A lot of the college sports news cycle seems focused on how much revenue is being made and how much is being paid. Or not made, and not paid.
 
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TimeB0mb said:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0VniTRf8Hzg3rSDoAKD6Xc&cshid=1532982421656

I don't know if that link works but is IRS opinion on excessive compensation. One of the the tests is looking at the total compensation package for employees including ancillary benefits like rent and royalties.

Bama boosters pay off Saban's $3.1M home

In no other walk of life except college football would the IRS allow such a farce.

Imagine the public outcry if you set up a charity to help wounded veterans, raised 80 million a year, then the board for the charity (your friends) voted to pay you $200,000. Then these same board members , on the side, set up a separate non profit booster club and paid you 8 million, plus bought you a house because they like how popular you are with veterans and you have great celebrity connections due to high viz position. They, no sh#t, would actually get tax write-offs for giving you a house. IRS would quash that scam in a heartbeat, but when it comes to college football, the corrupt NCAA is in bed with the corrupt state governments (and the very rich board members and boosters wield massive influence over the state governments) so it is allowed.
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Wounded Warrior Project, is that you?
 
Amazing how dense certain people are.

“its socialism! its terrible”

This is collegiate sports. When one team outspends everyone else and has 40 coaches, and then they win a title every year, it kills the sport.

Put a hard cap on overall staff salaries. This would make the sport itself more compelling.

Nobody watches football on Saturdays and Sundays as part of some social experiment to promote capitalism OR socialism. I care about whats good for the game, not fighting the goddam reds like its 1955.
 
TimeB0mb said:
Saban gets extension, to make $8.3M in 2018

Saban will make $8.3 million next year.

That's $2.3 million more than Mike McCarthy, a Super Bowl winning NFL coach. It is more than 3 million more than the average NFL head coach salary.

A coach of "amateur" student-athletes at a taxpayer funded public university should not be making $2.3 million more than a coach of professional athletes in a professional league.

There should be an absolute hard cap on college coach salaries, which should includes all booster benefits like Saban's free multi million dollar house. If a college coach wants to make NFL money he should go to the NFL. That will increase opportunities for coaches in college football and prevent this obscene perversion where a coach in an amateur association makes 2-3 times the salary of a coach in a professional league.
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He’s paid what the market says he’s worth.

I’m not a fan of the guy, but lol @ at a hard cap on coaches salaries.

Sounding like a socialist.
 
iLoveTDs said:
He’s paid what the market says he’s worth.

I’m not a fan of the guy, but lol @ at a hard cap on coaches salaries.

Sounding like a socialist.
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there he is folks. The Joe McCarthy of our time! fighting the reds wherever they are!

dude its sports entertainment. can we please not ruin it with your weird obsession over Castro? a salary cap on coaching staffs would benefit the entire sport, and certainly our Canes.

get over yourself.
 
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