OT Dolphins - Steelers, player recruiting ranking

Handsome Squidbum

The Strongest Steel is Forged in Dumpster Fires
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Star observations:
Laveon Bell 2 star (5 offers)
Jay Ajayi 3 star (5 offers, and his list, yikes)
Pitt Rapist QB 0 star (1 offer)
Devante Parker 3 star (3 offers)
Kenny Stills 4 star (lots of offers)
Antonio Brown 0 star
Jarvis Landry 5 star

Continuing:
Alejandro Villanueva, LT, 0 star, (actually not even ranked)
David Decastro, G, 3 star (6 offers)
Marcus Gilbert RT, from STA 4 star (many offers, including us)
Ramon Foster, G, 3 star
Jesse James, TE 3 star
 
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This is why I trust my own opinion over any one else's. Odds are the same.

This is kinda my point, nearly all the top skill position guys on both teams were lightly recruited. If Miami missed on a five star wr and grabbed a two star who might only have a few offers from lesser programs, most would say it was a bust. Yet odds seem pretty good that either player could be playing on Sunday. It's not like Ajayi and Brown came up in an era before Rivals or the Internet so they had a chance to fly under the radar (like an Ed Reed back in the day). Take raw talent and develop it. Sure it's great to grab players who are polished out of high school, but Miamis issue the last few years has been player development, not recruiting. Coach Kool speaks to that. Don't care if Rumph can't recruit a 5 star to save his life, if he can coach up 2 and 3 stars, then we're on the right track. So far he looks to be doing a decent coaching job.
 
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Right, I concur to the fullest.

This is what me and Chise were saying before the season started.

There were too many guys saying certain players "don't belong here". That very well may be true; but at least give the coaches a chance to develop these guys as they are still some decent looking athletes.

As talented as some of these kids are i still wouldn't offer them a ship unless they can pass the "all heart" test.
 
This is why I trust my own opinion over any one else's. Odds are the same.

This is kinda my point, nearly all the top skill position guys on both teams were lightly recruited. If Miami missed on a five star wr and grabbed a two star who might only have a few offers from lesser programs, most would say it was a bust. Yet odds seem pretty good that either player could be playing on Sunday. It's not like Ajayi and Brown came up in an era before Rivals or the Internet so they had a chance to fly under the radar (like an Ed Reed back in the day). Take raw talent and develop it. Sure it's great to grab players who are polished out of high school, but Miamis issue the last few years has been player development, not recruiting. Coach Kool speaks to that. Don't care if Rumph can't recruit a 5 star to save his life, if he can coach up 2 and 3 stars, then we're on the right track. So far he looks to be doing a decent coaching job.

I tend to agree with you. Stars do matter but not as much as fans think. The key is to develop the players you get and hit on your evaluations. The question is do fellow Miami fans have the patience to allow a coach to come in and develop guys?
 
Yes and no. I go back and forth on my opinion on "Stars" quite a bit but tend to always fall somewhere in the middle.

1 - Stars are not the end all be all. Many top guys flop. Low star guys become legit NCAA and NFL plays quite a bit.
2 - The rankings today are MUCH better than the rankings of old. Camps, combines, social media, Hudl, Youtube, etc makes it easier to find talent that only local schools knew about in past years.
3 - There are a lot less 4-5 star kids in HS and a ton of 0-3 star kids. So for ever 1 low ranked kid who makes it, there are a ton who don't. I would love to see the percentages for NCAA All-American teams, NFL draftees and NFL starters.
4 - Ultimately, it's all about player development. You can either coach (Kool) or you can't (Nix). Having a high star kid usually means you have an athletically gifted canvas to work with, giving a better opportunity for success. Some kids take more time to develop, are late physical bloomers, played for horrible HS teams or out of position.....but it's still a numbers game. All you have to do is look at Bama, OSU, LSU, FSU and others who have been Top10 classes. If it was always so easy to work with 2-3 star talent, FIU, FAU, MAC schools, AAC and others would always be competitive.
5 - It all comes down to who has the best eye. Everyone will miss. Look at the NFL draft. It's what makes scouting fun and why i enjoy it so much. Ultimately, i trust my eyes more than any "offer list" or writeup from someone else. But that is just one piece. A kids attitude, work ethic, family background, grades and personal characteristics all play a role in how a kid will succeed.
 
Why do people still try to make this argument?

5 and 4 star kids are more likely to be successful than the 3 stars.
 
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This is why I trust my own opinion over any one else's. Odds are the same.

This is kinda my point, nearly all the top skill position guys on both teams were lightly recruited. If Miami missed on a five star wr and grabbed a two star who might only have a few offers from lesser programs, most would say it was a bust. Yet odds seem pretty good that either player could be playing on Sunday. It's not like Ajayi and Brown came up in an era before Rivals or the Internet so they had a chance to fly under the radar (like an Ed Reed back in the day). Take raw talent and develop it. Sure it's great to grab players who are polished out of high school, but Miamis issue the last few years has been player development, not recruiting. Coach Kool speaks to that. Don't care if Rumph can't recruit a 5 star to save his life, if he can coach up 2 and 3 stars, then we're on the right track. So far he looks to be doing a decent coaching job.

Miami's issue has been a lot of things and recruiting is one of them. Miami has missed on guys like Patrick Johnsonn (five star), Amari Cooper (five star), Dalvin Cuck (five star), etc. Stupid, false dichotomy argument that makes no sense. The best players on the team are largely the highest-ranked recruits. There's some exceptions particularly on the line but These are our first round picks since the 2007 draft:

Greg Olsen (five star)
Kenny Phillips (five star)
Brandon Meriweather (four star)
Jon Beason (four star)
Ereck Flowers (four star)
Artie Burns (four star)
Phillip Dorsett (three star)

There's no bright-line and coaches can make their own evaluations but there's a reason that the top programs continue to load up on 4 and 5 star players. Being a 3 star doesn't mean you're a "raw" talent sometimes it just means you aren't very good.
 
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blah blah same old arguments, but its very simple....

4 and 5 stars are more likely to be successful
There are more 3 stars as 4 and 5 star combined.
There's about 1million 2 star and below players.

Its not hard to see for anyone with a brain that there will be more 3 star and below players in the NFL than 4 and 5 star.
 
This is why I trust my own opinion over any one else's. Odds are the same.

This is kinda my point, nearly all the top skill position guys on both teams were lightly recruited. If Miami missed on a five star wr and grabbed a two star who might only have a few offers from lesser programs, most would say it was a bust. Yet odds seem pretty good that either player could be playing on Sunday. It's not like Ajayi and Brown came up in an era before Rivals or the Internet so they had a chance to fly under the radar (like an Ed Reed back in the day). Take raw talent and develop it. Sure it's great to grab players who are polished out of high school, but Miamis issue the last few years has been player development, not recruiting. Coach Kool speaks to that. Don't care if Rumph can't recruit a 5 star to save his life, if he can coach up 2 and 3 stars, then we're on the right track. So far he looks to be doing a decent coaching job.

Miami's issue has been a lot of things and recruiting is one of them. Miami has missed on guys like Patrick Johnsonn (five star), Amari Cooper (five star), Dalvin Cuck (five star), etc. Stupid, false dichotomy argument that makes no sense. The best players on the team are largely the highest-ranked recruits. There's some exceptions particularly on the line but These are our first round picks since the 2007 draft:

Greg Olsen (five star)
Kenny Phillips (five star)
Brandon Meriweather (four star)
Jon Beason (four star)
Ereck Flowers (four star)
Artie Burns (four star)
Phillip Dorsett (three star)

There's no bright-line and coaches can make their own evaluations but there's a reason that the top programs continue to load up on 4 and 5 star players. Being a 3 star doesn't mean you're a "raw" talent sometimes it just means you aren't very good.

Being a 3 star doesn't even mean you aren't very good.. It just means you are somewhere between 300-750th best player out of 1million. Which is still the 99.9percentile of HS football players.
 
This is why I trust my own opinion over any one else's. Odds are the same.

This is kinda my point, nearly all the top skill position guys on both teams were lightly recruited. If Miami missed on a five star wr and grabbed a two star who might only have a few offers from lesser programs, most would say it was a bust. Yet odds seem pretty good that either player could be playing on Sunday. It's not like Ajayi and Brown came up in an era before Rivals or the Internet so they had a chance to fly under the radar (like an Ed Reed back in the day). Take raw talent and develop it. Sure it's great to grab players who are polished out of high school, but Miamis issue the last few years has been player development, not recruiting. Coach Kool speaks to that. Don't care if Rumph can't recruit a 5 star to save his life, if he can coach up 2 and 3 stars, then we're on the right track. So far he looks to be doing a decent coaching job.

Miami's issue has been a lot of things and recruiting is one of them. Miami has missed on guys like Patrick Johnsonn (five star), Amari Cooper (five star), Dalvin Cuck (five star), etc. Stupid, false dichotomy argument that makes no sense. The best players on the team are largely the highest-ranked recruits. There's some exceptions particularly on the line but These are our first round picks since the 2007 draft:

Greg Olsen (five star)
Kenny Phillips (five star)
Brandon Meriweather (four star)
Jon Beason (four star)
Ereck Flowers (four star)
Artie Burns (four star)
Phillip Dorsett (three star)

There's no bright-line and coaches can make their own evaluations but there's a reason that the top programs continue to load up on 4 and 5 star players. Being a 3 star doesn't mean you're a "raw" talent sometimes it just means you aren't very good.

Yes, rankings do have a correlation to winning. But a top 10 recruiting class (which I think we'll have) is plenty to be competitive for a national championship. Don't have to be #1 .

A. Highly rated class + poor coaching = not competitive for championship
B. Lower rated class (between 10-25) + excellent coaching = getting to playoffs is possible
C. Low rated class + bad coaching =not even a prayer
D. Highly rated class + excellent coaching = very high chance of making playoffs

"The coaches that recruit well are those that build consistent programs. Examples of this include Nick Saban and Mark Richt."
The Real Value of Recruiting in College Football

Uh oh, don't tell the anti Richt crowd that he's considered a good coach.
 
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This is why I trust my own opinion over any one else's. Odds are the same.

This is kinda my point, nearly all the top skill position guys on both teams were lightly recruited. If Miami missed on a five star wr and grabbed a two star who might only have a few offers from lesser programs, most would say it was a bust. Yet odds seem pretty good that either player could be playing on Sunday. It's not like Ajayi and Brown came up in an era before Rivals or the Internet so they had a chance to fly under the radar (like an Ed Reed back in the day). Take raw talent and develop it. Sure it's great to grab players who are polished out of high school, but Miamis issue the last few years has been player development, not recruiting. Coach Kool speaks to that. Don't care if Rumph can't recruit a 5 star to save his life, if he can coach up 2 and 3 stars, then we're on the right track. So far he looks to be doing a decent coaching job.

Miami's issue has been a lot of things and recruiting is one of them. Miami has missed on guys like Patrick Johnsonn (five star), Amari Cooper (five star), Dalvin Cuck (five star), etc. Stupid, false dichotomy argument that makes no sense. The best players on the team are largely the highest-ranked recruits. There's some exceptions particularly on the line but These are our first round picks since the 2007 draft:

Greg Olsen (five star)
Kenny Phillips (five star)
Brandon Meriweather (four star)
Jon Beason (four star)
Ereck Flowers (four star)
Artie Burns (four star)
Phillip Dorsett (three star)

There's no bright-line and coaches can make their own evaluations but there's a reason that the top programs continue to load up on 4 and 5 star players. Being a 3 star doesn't mean you're a "raw" talent sometimes it just means you aren't very good.

Yes, rankings do have a correlation to winning. But a top 10 recruiting class (which I think we'll have) is plenty to be competitive for a national championship. Don't have to be #1 .

A. Highly rated class + poor coaching = not competitive for championship
B. Lower rated class (between 10-25) + excellent coaching = getting to playoffs is possible
C. Low rated class + bad coaching =not even a prayer
D. Highly rated class + excellent coaching = very high chance of making playoffs

"The coaches that recruit well are those that build consistent programs. Examples of this include Nick Saban and Mark Richt."
The Real Value of Recruiting in College Football

Uh oh, don't tell the anti Richt crowd that he's considered a good coach.

Not sure what this has to do with your original post at all.
 
[MENTION=4407]52CANES[/MENTION]...
Being a 3 star doesn't even mean you aren't very good.. It just means you are somewhere between 300-750th best player out of 1million. Which is still the 99.9percentile of HS football players.

This.
 
This is why I trust my own opinion over any one else's. Odds are the same.

This is kinda my point, nearly all the top skill position guys on both teams were lightly recruited. If Miami missed on a five star wr and grabbed a two star who might only have a few offers from lesser programs, most would say it was a bust. Yet odds seem pretty good that either player could be playing on Sunday. It's not like Ajayi and Brown came up in an era before Rivals or the Internet so they had a chance to fly under the radar (like an Ed Reed back in the day). Take raw talent and develop it. Sure it's great to grab players who are polished out of high school, but Miamis issue the last few years has been player development, not recruiting. Coach Kool speaks to that. Don't care if Rumph can't recruit a 5 star to save his life, if he can coach up 2 and 3 stars, then we're on the right track. So far he looks to be doing a decent coaching job.

Miami's issue has been a lot of things and recruiting is one of them. Miami has missed on guys like Patrick Johnsonn (five star), Amari Cooper (five star), Dalvin Cuck (five star), etc. Stupid, false dichotomy argument that makes no sense. The best players on the team are largely the highest-ranked recruits. There's some exceptions particularly on the line but These are our first round picks since the 2007 draft:

Greg Olsen (five star)
Kenny Phillips (five star)
Brandon Meriweather (four star)
Jon Beason (four star)
Ereck Flowers (four star)
Artie Burns (four star)
Phillip Dorsett (three star)

There's no bright-line and coaches can make their own evaluations but there's a reason that the top programs continue to load up on 4 and 5 star players. Being a 3 star doesn't mean you're a "raw" talent sometimes it just means you aren't very good.

Yes, rankings do have a correlation to winning. But a top 10 recruiting class (which I think we'll have) is plenty to be competitive for a national championship. Don't have to be #1 .

A. Highly rated class + poor coaching = not competitive for championship
B. Lower rated class (between 10-25) + excellent coaching = getting to playoffs is possible
C. Low rated class + bad coaching =not even a prayer
D. Highly rated class + excellent coaching = very high chance of making playoffs

"The coaches that recruit well are those that build consistent programs. Examples of this include Nick Saban and Mark Richt."
The Real Value of Recruiting in College Football

Uh oh, don't tell the anti Richt crowd that he's considered a good coach.



:stephenahand:
 
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This is why I trust my own opinion over any one else's. Odds are the same.

This is kinda my point, nearly all the top skill position guys on both teams were lightly recruited. If Miami missed on a five star wr and grabbed a two star who might only have a few offers from lesser programs, most would say it was a bust. Yet odds seem pretty good that either player could be playing on Sunday. It's not like Ajayi and Brown came up in an era before Rivals or the Internet so they had a chance to fly under the radar (like an Ed Reed back in the day). Take raw talent and develop it. Sure it's great to grab players who are polished out of high school, but Miamis issue the last few years has been player development, not recruiting. Coach Kool speaks to that. Don't care if Rumph can't recruit a 5 star to save his life, if he can coach up 2 and 3 stars, then we're on the right track. So far he looks to be doing a decent coaching job.

On the right track to what? Getting our *** handed to us by teams with elite coaching AND elite players across the board?
 
This is why I trust my own opinion over any one else's. Odds are the same.

This is kinda my point, nearly all the top skill position guys on both teams were lightly recruited. If Miami missed on a five star wr and grabbed a two star who might only have a few offers from lesser programs, most would say it was a bust. Yet odds seem pretty good that either player could be playing on Sunday. It's not like Ajayi and Brown came up in an era before Rivals or the Internet so they had a chance to fly under the radar (like an Ed Reed back in the day). Take raw talent and develop it. Sure it's great to grab players who are polished out of high school, but Miamis issue the last few years has been player development, not recruiting. Coach Kool speaks to that. Don't care if Rumph can't recruit a 5 star to save his life, if he can coach up 2 and 3 stars, then we're on the right track. So far he looks to be doing a decent coaching job.

Miami's issue has been a lot of things and recruiting is one of them. Miami has missed on guys like Patrick Johnsonn (five star), Amari Cooper (five star), Dalvin Cuck (five star), etc. Stupid, false dichotomy argument that makes no sense. The best players on the team are largely the highest-ranked recruits. There's some exceptions particularly on the line but These are our first round picks since the 2007 draft:

Greg Olsen (five star)
Kenny Phillips (five star)
Brandon Meriweather (four star)
Jon Beason (four star)
Ereck Flowers (four star)
Artie Burns (four star)
Phillip Dorsett (three star)

There's no bright-line and coaches can make their own evaluations but there's a reason that the top programs continue to load up on 4 and 5 star players. Being a 3 star doesn't mean you're a "raw" talent sometimes it just means you aren't very good.

Yes, rankings do have a correlation to winning. But a top 10 recruiting class (which I think we'll have) is plenty to be competitive for a national championship. Don't have to be #1 .

A. Highly rated class + poor coaching = not competitive for championship
B. Lower rated class (between 10-25) + excellent coaching = getting to playoffs is possible
C. Low rated class + bad coaching =not even a prayer
D. Highly rated class + excellent coaching = very high chance of making playoffs

"The coaches that recruit well are those that build consistent programs. Examples of this include Nick Saban and Mark Richt."
The Real Value of Recruiting in College Football

Uh oh, don't tell the anti Richt crowd that he's considered a good coach.

Not sure what this has to do with your original post at all.

True. Got off point. My initial post was simply looking at two teams in the NFL playoffs. A small sample size to be sure, but if you agree that being a starter on an NFL in the playoffs tends to suggest that the player is talented, then it's interesting to see that the overwhelming majority of players (I haven't finished going through the list of starters so maybe this changes ) were 3 star or below recruits. A team of purely 3 star or below NFL players would blow the doors off Alabama. So if a coach has a Butch Da Gaaaaawd like ability to spot and develop 3 star or below talent, you can win a championship. Thing is, a recruiting site can't rank every player in S FL as 4-5 stars even though I'd contend that a 2 or 3 star S. FL player is likely to be a better player than a 4 star from Wyoming. For teams like Bama, Oregon, and Notre Dame that don't have hundreds of elite athletes within a 40 mile drive of campus, then you certainly will want a highly ranked recruiting class. For schools like Miami and USC in talent hotbeds, there is a much better chance that a coach will have the opportunity to examine every single athlete with a microscope and ID the ballers, even if they don't have lots of stars.
 
To debunk the stars done matter crowd:

So despite comprising less than 1 percent of all recruits, five-stars accounted for a quarter of 2015 first-rounders. Meanwhile, more than 90 percent of all recruits are designated as being three stars or less, yet their representation in the first round is nearly half that.

Put it this way: About one in four five-star recruits like No. 1 pick Jameis Winston goes on to become a first-rounder, but only about one in 64 three-star recruits like No. 2 Marcus Mariota does. Any generalizations about star-ratings that use NFL rosters as justification are giving disproportionate weight to the outliers.

3 debunked recruiting myths that prove Signing Day is crucial | FOX Sports
 
blah blah same old arguments, but its very simple....

4 and 5 stars are more likely to be successful
There are more 3 stars as 4 and 5 star combined.
There's about 1million 2 star and below players.

Its not hard to see for anyone with a brain that there will be more 3 star and below players in the NFL than 4 and 5 star.

Exactly.

No one talks percentages when they start the star argument.

Give me a 1000 3 stars and in that bunch I'll find 100 just as good as your 100 4-5 stars--but give me the same number of three stars (100) and they will not be as good as your 100 4-5 stars.
 
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