OT: congressmen and reps part 2

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Bird4um

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Someone said it as I thought. To represent my beliefs. Wasn’t it so they could take the beliefs of the people in area they represent and vote for them? My guess is they didn’t want 1000’s of people showing up at the state capitols. But this was 200 years ago.

We have the internet today. All Americans can vote and be instantly counted.

Seems they are really no longer needed. We can now represent ourselves much easier.
 
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Thread got locked.

Someone said it as I thought. To represent my beliefs. Wasn’t it so they could take the beliefs of the people in area they represent and vote for them? My guess is they didn’t want 1000’s of people showing up at the state capitols. But this was 200 years ago.

We have the internet today. All Americans can vote and be instantly counted.

Seems they are really no longer needed. We can now represent ourselves much easier.


I actually disagree on this, to a point.

The structure of the US in conjunction with the states is a republic. The structure of governmental action in conjunction with the public will is representative democracy.

You can make the argument that we could replace the legislature with individual plebiscites, but I'm not sure that would be an improvement and it very well could be an absolute failure.

Have you ever seen a tax bill? The thing is massive and complex. ****, if Reps/Senators don't read it, why would we think that individual voters would read it? And who would draft it?

Not to mention the fact that most people would QUICKLY become bored with monitoring/reading/voting on legislation.

It may be fair to criticize Congress, but I really don't think that 328 million people want to do that job, in addition to their day jobs.

One thing to consider though.

In the originally DRAFTED Bill of Rights (and in one version that actually passed a vote), there were additional Amendments that didn't make it into the original Constitution (one passed much later, the Congressional pay-raise Amendment).

One of the approved (but subsequently lost) Amendments was to set a numerical framework for the size of Congressional districts. Obviously, at the time, this would have been based on white male land-owners, so we may have needed to tinker with the number a bit. But if the Amendment had passed, and the numbers had held, it would have effectuated the ORIGINAL INTENT of smaller homogenous districts that could more easily be represented by one person. It would have made it very difficult to create (at least on the national level) these ridiculously gerrymandered Congressional districts. And if it had happened, we would have, literally, thousands of Congresspersons today. It would have also made it much easier to have more than 2 political parties, and would have likely led to more of a "parliamentary" style of selecting a House Speaker, with multiple political parties forming a coalition to elect a Speaker.

And...it would be closer to what you are proposing.

It is undeniable that 435 legislators (with massive incumbency advantages at election time) are not very effective representatives for 328 million people. We are about to reach the point where (roughly) one House member "represents" one MILLION people. Some Congressional districts already do include one million people.

Maybe having 4,350 reps, or 8,700 reps, wouldn't immediately "fix" the problem, but it would certainly help us to stay "more representative" of 328 million diverse people.

Anyhow, just a thought. I'd love to see this Amendment revived and revised. We need something done, on a Constitutional level, that makes Congress more representative, and cuts down on the power of any ONE Member of Congress.
 
Thread got locked.

Someone said it as I thought. To represent my beliefs. Wasn’t it so they could take the beliefs of the people in area they represent and vote for them? My guess is they didn’t want 1000’s of people showing up at the state capitols. But this was 200 years ago.

We have the internet today. All Americans can vote and be instantly counted.

Seems they are really no longer needed. We can now represent ourselves much easier.
Get lost
 
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You're treading on thin ice OP. Hoping for the best for you but some of the management here is pretty fickle and unpredictable.

Just striking conversation.. Its a 200 year old system that hasn't adapted for the times.
It is we the people.... And now we the people can actually be done and counted...Quite easily...
 
Thread got locked.

Someone said it as I thought. To represent my beliefs. Wasn’t it so they could take the beliefs of the people in area they represent and vote for them? My guess is they didn’t want 1000’s of people showing up at the state capitols. But this was 200 years ago.

We have the internet today. All Americans can vote and be instantly counted.

Seems they are really no longer needed. We can now represent ourselves much easier.

That depends, there are several models of representation in this form of government...our representatives seem to include all of them.

As for the rest...read Federalist Paper #10 by James Madison.
 
What you are suggesting would mean redrawing every single district line and somehow managing to put an equal number of registered D’s and R’s in each district. Most members of Congress don’t have to earn any votes, they get it based on party and party alone.
 
Thread got locked.

Someone said it as I thought. To represent my beliefs. Wasn’t it so they could take the beliefs of the people in area they represent and vote for them? My guess is they didn’t want 1000’s of people showing up at the state capitols. But this was 200 years ago.

We have the internet today. All Americans can vote and be instantly counted.

Seems they are really no longer needed. We can now represent ourselves much easier.

How do you internet vote without massive fraud?

I know the answer of how to do it, but people won't like it. We have the means and systems to implement tomorrow, but elected officials won't like it either.
 
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Just striking conversation.. Its a 200 year old system that hasn't adapted for the times.
It is we the people.... And now we the people can actually be done and counted...Quite easily...

It isn't as easy as you think.
 
How do you internet vote without massive fraud?

I know the answer of how to do it, but people won't like it.
I mean people trust online banking and you can mail in ballots so I don't see how it would be that far a stretch. Voting machine manufactures are iffy anyway.
 
I mean people trust online banking and you can mail in ballots so I don't see how it would be that far a stretch. Voting machine manufactures are iffy anyway.
People trust online banking because they can immediately and viscerally verify the result (e.g. $ in YOUR bank account not an ill defined pool).

Mail in voting is a fraction of the tallies (up until now).

Without a robust and multi-layered verification, online voting will be difficult to accept for the losers.
 
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People trust online banking because they can immediately and viscerally verify the result (e.g. $ in YOUR bank account not an ill defined pool).

Mail in voting is a fraction of the tallies (up until now).

Without a robust and multi-layered verification, online voting will be difficult to accept for the losers.
They don't all have to be online. It could be that multi-layered verification you speak of for those that choose like the mail in voting.
 
What you are suggesting would mean redrawing every single district line and somehow managing to put an equal number of registered D’s and R’s in each district. Most members of Congress don’t have to earn any votes, they get it based on party and party alone.


And? We are about to "redraw every single district line" in 2 years anyhow, based on the latest census. We do that every 10 years.

We have computers now, this is easy.

Currently, Congressional districts have (approximately) between 500,000 and 1,000,000 people.

If you to to 4,350 reps, you would cut districts to 50,000 to 100,000 in size. If you go to 8,700 reps, the districts would be 25,000 to 50,000 in size.

Computers could easily draw more compact and homogenous districts based on the smaller size. Would be a very similar exercise to...oh my gosh...drawing STATE congressional districts.

No need to have "equal" number of Ds and Rs in every district. No way to accomplish that anyhow. What if state is 60% Republican? What if state is 60% Democrat?

US Congressional district sizes (by population):

Population
  • Average population: 710,767 people based on 2010 U.S. Census. It was 646,946 in 2000.
  • State with the most people in the average district: Montana (994,416). In 2000, also Montana: 905,316.
  • State with the fewest people in the average district: Rhode Island (527,624). In 2000, Wyoming: 495,304.
  • District with the most people: Montana at-large (994,416). In 2000, also Montana at-large: 905,316.
  • District with the fewest people: Rhode Island's 1st (526,283). In 2000, Wyoming at-large: 495,304.
 
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I actually disagree on this, to a point.

The structure of the US in conjunction with the states is a republic. The structure of governmental action in conjunction with the public will is representative democracy.

You can make the argument that we could replace the legislature with individual plebiscites, but I'm not sure that would be an improvement and it very well could be an absolute failure.

Have you ever seen a tax bill? The thing is massive and complex. ****, if Reps/Senators don't read it, why would we think that individual voters would read it? And who would draft it?

Not to mention the fact that most people would QUICKLY become bored with monitoring/reading/voting on legislation.

It may be fair to criticize Congress, but I really don't think that 328 million people want to do that job, in addition to their day jobs.

One thing to consider though.

In the originally DRAFTED Bill of Rights (and in one version that actually passed a vote), there were additional Amendments that didn't make it into the original Constitution (one passed much later, the Congressional pay-raise Amendment).

One of the approved (but subsequently lost) Amendments was to set a numerical framework for the size of Congressional districts. Obviously, at the time, this would have been based on white male land-owners, so we may have needed to tinker with the number a bit. But if the Amendment had passed, and the numbers had held, it would have effectuated the ORIGINAL INTENT of smaller homogenous districts that could more easily be represented by one person. It would have made it very difficult to create (at least on the national level) these ridiculously gerrymandered Congressional districts. And if it had happened, we would have, literally, thousands of Congresspersons today. It would have also made it much easier to have more than 2 political parties, and would have likely led to more of a "parliamentary" style of selecting a House Speaker, with multiple political parties forming a coalition to elect a Speaker.

And...it would be closer to what you are proposing.

It is undeniable that 435 legislators (with massive incumbency advantages at election time) are not very effective representatives for 328 million people. We are about to reach the point where (roughly) one House member "represents" one MILLION people. Some Congressional districts already do include one million people.

Maybe having 4,350 reps, or 8,700 reps, wouldn't immediately "fix" the problem, but it would certainly help us to stay "more representative" of 328 million diverse people.

Anyhow, just a thought. I'd love to see this Amendment revived and revised. We need something done, on a Constitutional level, that makes Congress more representative, and cuts down on the power of any ONE Member of Congress.
The House is too big, that is why they never get anything done, the house is based on population and that number needs to rise again and shrink the House.
 
And? We are about to "redraw every single district line" in 2 years anyhow, based on the latest census. We do that every 10 years.

We have computers now, this is easy.

Currently, Congressional districts have (approximately) between 500,000 and 1,000,000 people.

If you to to 4,350 reps, you would cut districts to 50,000 to 100,000 in size. If you go to 8,700 reps, the districts would be 25,000 to 50,000 in size.

Computers could easily draw more compact and homogenous districts based on the smaller size. Would be a very similar exercise to...oh my gosh...drawing STATE congressional districts.

No need to have "equal" number of Ds and Rs in every district. No way to accomplish that anyhow. What if state is 60% Republican? What if state is 60% Democrat?

US Congressional district sizes (by population):

Population
  • Average population: 710,767 people based on 2010 U.S. Census. It was 646,946 in 2000.
  • State with the most people in the average district: Montana (994,416). In 2000, also Montana: 905,316.
  • State with the fewest people in the average district: Rhode Island (527,624). In 2000, Wyoming: 495,304.
  • District with the most people: Montana at-large (994,416). In 2000, also Montana at-large: 905,316.
  • District with the fewest people: Rhode Island's 1st (526,283). In 2000, Wyoming at-large: 495,304.

4,350 reps would be massively dysfunctional. Think there is gridlock now and coalition "collapses", they can barely function now.

That system would make Euro parliaments (Italy in particular because we are so fond of their example lately) seem like well oiled machines.

Want a more representative government?

Then vote.

Our nation has an absolutely abysmal participation rate of eligibles--typically in the 50% percentile for "important" Federal level elections and into the single digits for local contests.

How many excuses to people give for not partcipating? When you fail (and yes it is a failure) to cast your voice, you completely abdicate your right to complain.
 
There will be no campaign finance reform or term limits because the Republican appointed Politi Court fka the Supreme Court, voted to make corporations people and the wealthy or outside interest can donate $$$$$$$$ without disclosure. They have essentially bought control of the government. Whoever you vote for will be one of their paid for candidates. Their, corporations and wealthy, is to divide and rule. Look at us now. I'm convinced Republicans destroying democracy, rigging elections (gerrymandering) ect, setting the path for corporate control, race based policies, controlling the Supreme Court so that what they do can be challenged, but not overturned. I could go on, but you see the Democrats as the opposite to prove my point. My fear is that one day there will be a one party system and they will rewrite the Constitution, Bill of Rights and Laws. We Black people will suffer greatly if we don't defend the original government as framed by those not intoxicated with venom of racism and superiority.
 
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