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Tears Nole Tears (“Offcial”)

RVACane said:
Bret Bielema??? He’s not Bama level but Cignetti’s a good coach. Lanning would be a great choice at any top job.
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Bielman started off incredibly well at Wisconsin. He took over after Barry Alvarez. Alvarez had had Seasons finishing with 5, 8, 7, 9, 10 wins leading up to Bielman getting hired. That's like solid (7.8 wins/yr). Alvarez was there like 16 years, had four 10 win seasons and his best 5 year stretch was 9.2avg win/yr. Bielman got there and immediately won 12 games - more than Alvarez ever won in a season. He averaged 9.7 win/yr. And he had four 10+ win seasons In 7 years. Very good.

He then went to Arkansas and wasn't good. Well he was honestly probably just average for Arkansas standards tbh. In the 15 years before Bobby Petrino went to Arkansas they averaged 6.66 wins/yr and their best 3 year stretch was winning 7, 7, 9. They had one 10 win season in that stretch.... Petrino got there and immediately improved them - 5, 8, 10, 11 wins... Finishing with their first top 5 finish since Lou Holtz in 1973. Petrino then has his crash and firing which left them with an interim guy for a year who proceeded to follow up Arkansas best season in 30 years with a 4 win season... Bielman takes over and goes 3, 7, 8, 7, 4... So he kinda had an okay start/build given all the chaos of the Petrino ending. But 2016 season killed any momentum he had and then he crashed and burned. Though he had a very tough schedule that year. But anyways he left to the NFL a few years but then got hired at Illinois. He has now got them to their first 10 win season since 2001. They had averaged 3.77 wins/yr over the last 9 years before he got there! Last year was their first time finishing ranked in top 25 since 2007, and their highest end of season rank since 2001 again. And right now they have their highest pre-season ranking since 1990....

Bielman seems like he's a good coach. But I don't think he's a guy that would get Bama to a Championship. I think he's just a guy that could probably get them to consistent 10 wins...
 
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RVACane said:
Mario took a 7-5 team and went 5-7 and that’s cool because he needs to get his guys in but DeBoer, who runs a different system than saban had doesn’t get the same opportunity to get his guys in. Got it!
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What is this "different system than Saban"? Does it involve 2 QBs and no WRs? Will there be 7 DLs on the field at the same time?

Again, perhaps DeBoer and Saban have different styles of discipline or motivation, but I have yet to hear of any schematic differences which required or resulted in a wholesale changeover of personnel. Who were the Saban guys forced out? Who were the DeBoer guys brought in? And why could DeBoer do it so quickly at Washington, but not at Alabama?

I'm willing to listen, but I have been presented no evidence (outside of a vague "he needs his guys" comment) that DeBoer could not make things work for the personnel of a #5-in-the-country team. And he's had two years to shop for groceries IN THE PORTAL ERA and I'm not seeing much of an improvement yet.

I'm simply raising the possibility that we were sold a bunch of Kalen DeBoer Mythology ("he's won everywhere he's ever been") instead of Kalen DeBoer Philosophy or System ("he really needs to find his own 6'7" 250 pound QB to make his system work"). Perhaps the two year run at Washington was an aberration, and not a reliable indicator of a truly gifted and rising head coach.

All of the foregoing is submitted for purposes of discussion only. I'd simply love to have a Kalen DeBoer conversation that doesn't invoke the name of Mario Cristobal.
 
RVACane said:
It’s not you. There’s people that will make every excuse in the world to cap for Mario to have time to cook and get his guys in but won’t give that same courtesy to others, not just DeBoer.
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I grant the same courtesy to any coach who takes over a mid 7-5 team with lazy players and terrible team culture.
 
DTP said:
I think people forgot all about that Boston College game because we had already fallen apart for the season.

Castellanos had 130 yards rushing but none of it mattered because the game was 28-7 at halftime. Miami was perfectly fine with letting BC run the ball down three touchdowns in the second half.

It also explains how UCF went 4-8 last year despite averaging 250 yards rushing and 5.8 yards per carry. They would fall behind early and the opponents would gladly let Gus Malzahn run the ball and the clock when they were down multiple scores.

One dimensional, run heavy offenses are fine if you’re in a close game or your defense just shuts everyone out but if your opponent actually scores a couple of touchdowns early, the game is over.
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Exactly, Gus has 3-4 plays that he sticks with, he doesn't have Cam Newton when he was the OC at AU, this is 5' 6" Tommy C who when those 3-4 plays don't work anymore will absolutely give up on the team and pout about it or come up with more excuses. Hope he makes his $$ off his T-Shirt sales.
 
RVACane said:
Mario took a 7-5 team and went 5-7 and that’s cool because he needs to get his guys in but DeBoer, who runs a different system than saban had doesn’t get the same opportunity to get his guys in. Got it!
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TrumpyCane understands your point and its valid but the guy took over a team with like 10 straight top 3 classes
 
TheOriginalCane said:
You seriously need to take a break from posting.

"Our linebackers haven't exactly been all world". When? Last year? You have got to be ******* kidding me. We just played, and beat, the national championship finalist from last year.

"No name CJ Carr kid"? What, a freshman 5-star? And you think he "broke a few QB draws on us"?

---CJ Carr runs for -2 yards (first quarter)
---CJ Carr runs for 6 yards (second quarter)
---CJ Carr runs for no gain (second quarter)
---CJ Carr runs for 13 yards (third quarter)
---CJ Carr runs for 6 yards (third quarter)
---CJ Carr runs for 7 yards (fourth quarter)
---CJ Carr runs for 3 yards (fourth quarter)
---CJ Carr runs for 7 yards (fourth quarter)

NOT COUNTING THE SACKS, he ran for 40 yards. Most of that **** was dropbacks where he saw the chance to pick up 5 or 6 yards instead of throwing another screen pass. How is any of that "breaking a few QB draws on us"?

Get the **** out of here with this nonsense.

If you hold a "running" QB to 40 yards, you've done something right.
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While I agree with your underlying tone and sentiment, CJ Carr is NOT a running QB.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
Nope. Not buying it.

Mario had to get his guys in because we were a terrible team with a terrible culture and terrible habits. We had Manny players LIVING IN BROWARD. And, we simply did not have big linemen.

JJ inherited a defending national champion. Dennis inherited a team that went 2-1-2 in the preceding 3 years AND he changed the offense to a spread 1-back. Coker inherited a team that finished #2. AND DEBOER INHERITED A TEAM THAT WENT 1-2-5-5 IN THE PRECEDING FOUR YEARS.

The faulty part of your logic is that you are arguing the hire of DeBoer should give him just as much time to build/rebuild as Mario. Even though the two situations are completely different. If DeBoer wants to tear down the #5 team in the country and rebuild it in his image, he does so at his own peril. Not to mention the fact that he "only" needed one year to succeed at Washington. Maybe the expectations were different. Maybe the bar was lower. But if the REASON you are being hired is the miracle you just accomplished over the preceding 2 years AND you inherit the #5 team in the country, maybe you either make the most of the talent you ALREADY have, or you pull off the same miracle you just did at Washington.

That is all. You can't have it both ways. Mario took one of the worst teams in the country (FIU) and spent 4 years rebuilding. DeBoer doesn't seem to need 4 years with the Portal, Alabama's talent, and his past track record. If he asked for that, and said that the Alabama talent was overrated, that would be one thing. But he never said that.

So I'm really not sure why anyone has to give him "equal Mario time" to rebuild the #5 team in the country. When he made the national title game in his second year at a P5 school that was 4-8 when he was hired at Washington. And which, FOR THAT REASON, he was hired at Alabama.

Perhaps it is unrealistic to expect the national championship game in Year 2. But DeBoer accepted the job offer and cashes the paychecks.
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Totally agree, one thing that is being said is that DeBoer is no disciplinarian, living in AL, the word is the layers run the program now not the HC. I never thought DeBoer was going to be a good fit, if he would have been smart he wouldn't have changed anything and just kept it running like it was, I believe he is trying to turn it into a west coast style program that scores a lot with little defense however that's just my thoughts. Go Canes!!!
 
Munderwood said:
Totally agree, one thing that is being said is that DeBoer is no disciplinarian, living in AL, the word is the layers run the program now not the HC. I never thought DeBoer was going to be a good fit, if he would have been smart he wouldn't have changed anything and just kept it running like it was, I believe he is trying to turn it into a west coast style program that scores a lot with little defense however that's just my thoughts. Go Canes!!!
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Saban is the first coach to have the power to come in and tell all the boosters “ I’m daddy , this is my show , butt the F out . Give me money and recruits “.

It took them two decades to find a coach that could overcome the toxicity and too involved backers in that program.

Well the new coach didn’t have near the cachet as the last guy or respect. To the point Saban is still involved in the program and a lot of his former people are still inside the program . So you’ve replaced the legend while he’s still inside . Everything he’s doing is built around keeping Saban, Boosters and fans happy while doing it the bama way . Right down to scheme. This guy is f’d. He’ll learn a valuable lesson from this and will learn to always do it your way . When you fail any other way it haunts you.
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
I'm not mad at you personally, but what in the actual **** is this bull****?

---He spent FIVE YEARS as the head coach at Sioux Falls. NAIA. Holy ****, "he's won everywhere he's been", right?
---He spent TWO YEARS as the head coach at Fresno State. His first year was the COVID year, he went 3-3. He rebounded to 9-3 and then miraculously landed the Washington job. "He's won everywhere he's been", right?
---He spent TWO YEARS as the head coach at Washington. I give him FULL CREDIT for two good years at Washington. I've had this debate with @RVACane for the last two seasons, he can tell you, I have repeatedly pointed out that this is the ONLY impressive part of DeBoer's resume. TWO YEARS at Washington.

First, Alabama hired a coach who had won at Michigan State and LSU (national championship), as well as being hired as an NFL head coach. And now the guy they REPLACED him with has...what...TWO GOOD YEARS AT WASHINGTON?

You have got to be ******* kidding me.

But "he's won everywhere he's been". Get the **** out of here with that nonsense.

I'm going to post his ENTIRE resume, just for comedic effect. Outside of his TWO miraculous seasons at Washington, his resume is dominated by coaching stops in HIGH SCHOOL, in the NAIA, and at a series of directional schools.

What a ******* joke.


View attachment 334151
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To be clear, his most successful years rely on one person. Micheal Penix, that's what made him at somewhat Indiana, then as you said mediocre at Fresno, but low and behold at Washington, Penix showed up and made him look like a genius.
 
Calinative said:
**** Curt Cignettii, This is the one they probably should have hired looking back on it. Cignetti was WR coach and Recruiting coordinator at Bama 07-10 (so when saban first got there). But the biggest problem with him is that he was HC at two small schools after his bama tenure - IUP/Elon, where he had a LOT of success, including taking these teams to like their first conference champ wins and the lower level playoffs, and he won coach of year... But that was waaaay too small stakes for 8 years tbh. Then he went to JMU where he had excellent results, but again, fcs program. Of course when they moved up to FBS for 2 seasons he had excellent success still. But like was Bama ever going to hire the guy from JMU? As it turns out I think looking back he was probably the best choice. And the money wouldn't have been an issue at all. Just you'd have to overlook no major program success... Which would be a tough call to make.

Other coaches that Could have made some sense: Brent Key, Bill O'Brien who both coached at Alabama, and probably would be more of a culture fit. But Key is at his alma mater. The Guy that imo would actually funnily make a lot of sense is Greg Schiano tbh. He seems exactly the same type of culture guy as a Saban to me. Obviously some bama fans are going to want Lane Kiffin and that probably has the highest risk:reward after Deboer possibly tbh. But I'd say given his time at Bama and Ole Miss is a better culture fit than Deboer still. Bret Bielman would probably fit well at Alabama tbh.

Guys like Lebby, Fran Brown, Jon Sumrall aren't/werent experienced enough. Dillingham too, but I doubt he'd be a culture fit either.

Guys like Matt Campbell, Lance Leipold, Chris Klieman are all 3 VERY good coaches, but idk if they'd be a culture fit. They seem midwestern guys that like the ideal fit for them is taking a Nebraska team back to dominance...

Guys like Kirby, Dabo, Sark, Kelly, Franklin, etc weren't really a realistic option at all imo.

To me with Hindsight the rankings (that are semi-realistic options) would have been:
1. Lanning
2. Dabo
3. Cignetti
4. Deboer
5. One of Bielman, Key, Schiano

Ultimately I think Deboer still has a higher ceiling/odds of winning a championship at Bama than anyone I listed at 5....But the guys I listed at 5 IMO would probably have Bama treading water at 10 wins I think, and they'd just FIT better.
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Deboer is well liked from his time as OC at Indiana. I could see the two programs trading HC this season or the next.
 
TrumpyCane said:
TrumpyCane understands your point and its valid but the guy took over a team with like 10 straight top 3 classes
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Thank you. I agree that this is a harder situation in Miami but also these coaches want their guys sometimes. Lanning turned Mario’s roster over significantly because he wanted guys who fit with his program. Mario certainly left Lanning a good situation yet it wasn’t what Lanning wanted. It very well could be the same for DeBoer. Personally, I don’t think it takes 4-5 years in today’s day to rebuild when you have resources but if people are going to give Mario that time then give others the same courtesy.
 
Calinative said:
**** Curt Cignettii, This is the one they probably should have hired looking back on it. Cignetti was WR coach and Recruiting coordinator at Bama 07-10 (so when saban first got there). But the biggest problem with him is that he was HC at two small schools after his bama tenure - IUP/Elon, where he had a LOT of success, including taking these teams to like their first conference champ wins and the lower level playoffs, and he won coach of year... But that was waaaay too small stakes for 8 years tbh. Then he went to JMU where he had excellent results, but again, fcs program. Of course when they moved up to FBS for 2 seasons he had excellent success still. But like was Bama ever going to hire the guy from JMU? As it turns out I think looking back he was probably the best choice. And the money wouldn't have been an issue at all. Just you'd have to overlook no major program success... Which would be a tough call to make.

Other coaches that Could have made some sense: Brent Key, Bill O'Brien who both coached at Alabama, and probably would be more of a culture fit. But Key is at his alma mater. The Guy that imo would actually funnily make a lot of sense is Greg Schiano tbh. He seems exactly the same type of culture guy as a Saban to me. Obviously some bama fans are going to want Lane Kiffin and that probably has the highest risk:reward after Deboer possibly tbh. But I'd say given his time at Bama and Ole Miss is a better culture fit than Deboer still. Bret Bielman would probably fit well at Alabama tbh.

Guys like Lebby, Fran Brown, Jon Sumrall aren't/werent experienced enough. Dillingham too, but I doubt he'd be a culture fit either.

Guys like Matt Campbell, Lance Leipold, Chris Klieman are all 3 VERY good coaches, but idk if they'd be a culture fit. They seem midwestern guys that like the ideal fit for them is taking a Nebraska team back to dominance...

Guys like Kirby, Dabo, Sark, Kelly, Franklin, etc weren't really a realistic option at all imo.

To me with Hindsight the rankings (that are semi-realistic options) would have been:
1. Lanning
2. Dabo
3. Cignetti
4. Deboer
5. One of Bielman, Key, Schiano

Ultimately I think Deboer still has a higher ceiling/odds of winning a championship at Bama than anyone I listed at 5....But the guys I listed at 5 IMO would probably have Bama treading water at 10 wins I think, and they'd just FIT better.
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I can see them going after Schumann
 
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RVACane said:
Mario took a 7-5 team and went 5-7 and that’s cool because he needs to get his guys in but DeBoer, who runs a different system than saban had doesn’t get the same opportunity to get his guys in. Got it!
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Mario didn’t take over a juggernaut like Coker or Erickson did. Or like DeBoer did.

He had an image that he wanted his program rebuilt into (something akin to Alabama or Miami or old). And he set about doing that, in a process that was multi year.

DeBoer inherited a team that has absolutely dominated high school recruiting over the last 15 years, and whose only real competition for talent was Ohio State and Georgia. Alabama was like the Miami teams of old…every year a national championship was expected, and reasonably so because of the absurd level of talent. And now they’ve slid back.

A secondary problem that not many are talking about is how well equipped is Alabama to exist in a transfer portal / NIL ecosystem. They dominated pre NIL when the top payments were $300K. Now you have players earning nine figures. Now you can’t simply stack talent, because talent can leave. Those are factors that DeBoer now faces, and Saban would have faced if he had not retired.
 
Brickell said:
Here's the talent composite for this year. There's no excuse for Bama not to be an elite team.
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The same reason we were getting “elite” recruiting during Coker. Some players thought bama without Saban would take them there. They wont

Eventually starting this cycle I’m assuming that will wear off. I’m sure they will do better than Coker though cause Saban did it for so long that recruits give bama the benefit of the doubt.
 
GojiraCane said:
Mario didn’t take over a juggernaut like Coker or Erickson did. Or like DeBoer did.

He had an image that he wanted his program rebuilt into (something akin to Alabama or Miami or old). And he set about doing that, in a process that was multi year.

DeBoer inherited a team that has absolutely dominated high school recruiting over the last 15 years, and whose only real competition for talent was Ohio State and Georgia. Alabama was like the Miami teams of old…every year a national championship was expected, and reasonably so because of the absurd level of talent. And now they’ve slid back.

A secondary problem that not many are talking about is how well equipped is Alabama to exist in a transfer portal / NIL ecosystem. They dominated pre NIL when the top payments were $300K. Now you have players earning nine figures. Now you can’t simply stack talent, because talent can leave. Those are factors that DeBoer now faces, and Saban would have faced if he had not retired.
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Objectively, he inherited a better situation than Mario. That doesn’t mean it’s his players that work with what he wants to do. Lanning inherited a very good situation from Mario yet he still flipped the roster. He wanted his guys. So if we’re giving Mario 4 years then give the other guys the same amount of time. But ripping DeBoer and others while capping for Mario is something I will never ever see as fair.
 
RVACane said:
Objectively, he inherited a better situation than Mario. That doesn’t mean it’s his players that work with what he wants to do. Lanning inherited a very good situation from Mario yet he still flipped the roster. He wanted his guys. So if we’re giving Mario 4 years then give the other guys the same amount of time. But ripping DeBoer and others while capping for Mario is something I will never ever see as fair.
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Fair or not bama already had a rebuilt roster. I get what you are saying and I kind of agree but since the roster was the least of bamas worries gave him less time. That’s a job you take after Saban cause it’s life changing money, and you get fired and relax. That’s basically what it is. A job you will fail at for 20 years. You can’t replicate what the fans demand. Saban ruined them, they think they have to win it every year. Imagine the way cane fans were and we had a tiny window in the early 2000’s. Bama had like a 15 almost 20 year window. Saban ruined expectations there cause they are unrealistic
 
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