Name that Defense

[Cribby]

Potatoes gone wild.

 

[Artist Formerly Known As]

Wade Phillips ran his 3-4 with a baby sized (relatively) Jay Ratliff. His biggest advantages? Leverage and speed. He weighed 285 pounds and played 0-tech (shaded).

We have guys like Norton and Jenkins who could disrupt the **** out of an offense from the same position (and are actually bigger than Ratliff was in the NFL).

I'd even go so far as to ask both of them to slim down and optimize their get off.

I hate comparing college to pros, but most if not all of the best 3-4 defenses of the past 15 years have had beef up front. Wade Phillips system is more the outlier than the majority.

Steelers and Patriots won five superbowls using the 3-4 combined in that stretch. Both had a massive nose tackle and big DEs.

So what? All this proves is my exact point: you can play highly effective versions of the 3-4 with smaller fast players.

Yes, it's possible to play an effective 3-4 with non-prototypical personnel, but the best 3-4 defenses, college or pro, have almost exclusively had personnel that fit the prototype (which is hard to find in SFL).

I wouldn't bash an Aranda hiring or am I stuck on being exclusively 4-3, but I'd have to see it installed and be effective with our talent pool before I'm convinced.

 

[Fawk_U Haters]

Is it really to much to ask to have 4 guys up front all with their hands in the dirt physically, mentally, and emotionally dominating the person in front of them, wreaking havoc and living in the backfield?

 

[BWCD]

The only thing that matters is the gap assignments.

Remember folks...just run the right gap assignments on D. The personnel and their physical attributes/gifts/advantages has nothing to do with it.

You too can be a 1-gapping DT at 5'11/215, just like me.

Lmao...I think we are done here. FullyERicht has went FullyELimp.

 

[FullyERicht]

The only thing that matters is the gap assignments.

Remember folks...just run the right gap assignments on D. The personnel and their physical attributes/gifts/advantages has nothing to do with it.

You too can be a 1-gapping DT at 5'11/215, just like me.

Lmao...I think we are done here. FullyERicht has went FullyELimp.

Wait so now you are arguing that we need good players? NO WAY!! Really? Jesus christ IQ tests for entry please.

 

[Dynasty]

WTF are you taking about. First of all it's the Texans, second of all it is the exact same front. You have a 5, 1, and 3.

Texans, Bears whatever. In the first still clip, the WDT is aligned in a 3 tech, correct? In the second vid, the weakside DT is aligned in what technique? It doesn't look like a 3 to me.

Bc he is 2 gapping. Like in the first pic where it clearly says "can 2 gap". A 4-3 team 2 gapping while the 3-4 doesnt.

Understand the point of "can 2 gap." However, as stated the key is the shaded DTs. If that "two gap" DT does indeed stack, then it becomes a combo front. It isn't a pure penetrating front. The thing is you can play this game in either a 3-4 or 4-3 front. Personally, I don't want any part of a 3-4 or 4-3 system that uses combo fronts.

You made a point that is made up. The entire premise is that the only difference between a single gap 3-4 and a single gap 4-3 is the alignment. Anything else you do can be done in either scheme. You can play over, under, bear, etc etc FROM EITHER SYSTEM. You can play 1 side 2 gap, one side single gap in EITHER SYSTEM. You can play strictly 2 gap IN EITHER SYSTEM, or strictly one gap IN EITHER SYSTEM.

IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER.

The only thing that matters is the gap assignments.

What point did I make up? My premise is strictly related to the alignment of the DTs. Either they are shaded and coming upfield or they aren't.

 

[LuCane]

Is it really to much to ask to have 4 guys up front all with their hands in the dirt physically, mentally, and emotionally dominating the person in front of them, wreaking havoc and living in the backfield?

Hey, I love the tradition, but I'm coming around to the fact that, in order to beat up spread teams consistently, your front needs to cause confusion AND get upfield. All I'm saying is that you can do that from the 3-4 by having a guy like AQM stand up. Not a big deal.

People thinking of the 3-4 Golden ran is pointless. It was based on contain. Offensive personnel groupings would actually dictate the defensive alignment. It is a relic created for a different era of offense.

Golden and D'Ono ran a 3-4 the way the redcoats fought wars. Except, they were asked to lead a ground force in modern day Fallujah. The point of this thread should be that you can run a 3-4 capable of being adaptive enough to fight in the modern day.

 

[fincane]

Wade Phillips ran his 3-4 with a baby sized (relatively) Jay Ratliff. His biggest advantages? Leverage and speed. He weighed 285 pounds and played 0-tech (shaded).

We have guys like Norton and Jenkins who could disrupt the **** out of an offense from the same position (and are actually bigger than Ratliff was in the NFL).

I'd even go so far as to ask both of them to slim down and optimize their get off.

Why do we keep using NFL examples along with a potential hall of fame coordinator? Why do these systems work in college? Who in the college ranks can we compare our guys too and is that defense sustainable year to year? Are we going to need grown men and who have "got the system down" to run it effectively?

So you point to a college defense like Aranda's and say its a system that doesn't work with talented players.

Then you say NFL defenses don't count bc they are too talented and you can't compare to college.

Do you have autism or Downs?

I can see you're getting frustrated because you've devolved into name calling and misinformation. I never said it didn't work with talented players. The NFL doesn't count. It isn't the same game. You have grown men ready to play it. Wisconsin redshirts every DL they get their hands on if they can. I'm still waiting on you to tell me why south Florida front 7 players aren't being gobbled up by the best 3-4 defenses in the country.

You can talk about all the positives of it and I haven't disagreed but why would I install a system that the players I focus on recruiting aren't interested in playing in? Or at least don't appear to be recruited to play in. They can be misinformed as **** but you start talking about the 3-4 to south Florida kids and taking up blockers and watch the reactions.

Jesus christ.

Your issue is that you STILL equate all 3-4 defenses. Bob Diaco's at ND is different from Al Goldens, which is different from Sabans, which is different from Clancy Pendergasts, which is different from Dave Aranda and Todd Orlando's.

You are correct. Small, quick twitch Florida players don't do well in Golden or Diaco's 2-gap systems.

They also aren't as suited for Saban's combo of 2 gap and 1 gap, which require much bigger, more powerful athletes. Or Pendergasts 52 defense.

However, there exist versions of the 3-4, which are relatively new, modern and less common, that are both highly effective and based on speed over size.

That's the whole point. The entire thing people have been trying to explain to you is that being "anti-34" is not logical, b/c the systems are all vastly different. And there are some that WOULD fit South Florida personnel.

List the ones that take advantage of the skill sets of Chad Thomas, Demetrius Jackson and AQM and not minimize them and I'm all in. From what I can tell, listing Aranda would be based on the assumption that he would change what he asked his DE and DT to do fit their talents.

 

[FullyERicht]

Texans, Bears whatever. In the first still clip, the WDT is aligned in a 3 tech, correct? In the second vid, the weakside DT is aligned in what technique? It doesn't look like a 3 to me.

Bc he is 2 gapping. Like in the first pic where it clearly says "can 2 gap". A 4-3 team 2 gapping while the 3-4 doesnt.

Understand the point of "can 2 gap." However, as stated the key is the shaded DTs. If that "two gap" DT does indeed stack, then it becomes a combo front. It isn't a pure penetrating front. The thing is you can play this game in either a 3-4 or 4-3 front. Personally, I don't want any part of a 3-4 or 4-3 system that uses combo fronts.

You made a point that is made up. The entire premise is that the only difference between a single gap 3-4 and a single gap 4-3 is the alignment. Anything else you do can be done in either scheme. You can play over, under, bear, etc etc FROM EITHER SYSTEM. You can play 1 side 2 gap, one side single gap in EITHER SYSTEM. You can play strictly 2 gap IN EITHER SYSTEM, or strictly one gap IN EITHER SYSTEM.

IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER.

The only thing that matters is the gap assignments.

What point did I make up? My premise is strictly related to the alignment of the DTs. Either they are shaded and coming upfield or they aren't.

Your premise is irrelevant to the topic at hand which is that the only thing that matters whether it is 4-3 or 3-4 is how you play the gaps, and that either system can utilize small, fast players getting up the field.

 

[FullyERicht]

Why do we keep using NFL examples along with a potential hall of fame coordinator? Why do these systems work in college? Who in the college ranks can we compare our guys too and is that defense sustainable year to year? Are we going to need grown men and who have "got the system down" to run it effectively?

So you point to a college defense like Aranda's and say its a system that doesn't work with talented players.

Then you say NFL defenses don't count bc they are too talented and you can't compare to college.

Do you have autism or Downs?

I can see you're getting frustrated because you've devolved into name calling and misinformation. I never said it didn't work with talented players. The NFL doesn't count. It isn't the same game. You have grown men ready to play it. Wisconsin redshirts every DL they get their hands on if they can. I'm still waiting on you to tell me why south Florida front 7 players aren't being gobbled up by the best 3-4 defenses in the country.

You can talk about all the positives of it and I haven't disagreed but why would I install a system that the players I focus on recruiting aren't interested in playing in? Or at least don't appear to be recruited to play in. They can be misinformed as **** but you start talking about the 3-4 to south Florida kids and taking up blockers and watch the reactions.

Jesus christ.

Your issue is that you STILL equate all 3-4 defenses. Bob Diaco's at ND is different from Al Goldens, which is different from Sabans, which is different from Clancy Pendergasts, which is different from Dave Aranda and Todd Orlando's.

You are correct. Small, quick twitch Florida players don't do well in Golden or Diaco's 2-gap systems.

They also aren't as suited for Saban's combo of 2 gap and 1 gap, which require much bigger, more powerful athletes. Or Pendergasts 52 defense.

However, there exist versions of the 3-4, which are relatively new, modern and less common, that are both highly effective and based on speed over size.

That's the whole point. The entire thing people have been trying to explain to you is that being "anti-34" is not logical, b/c the systems are all vastly different. And there are some that WOULD fit South Florida personnel.

List the ones that take advantage of the skill sets of Chad Thomas, Demetrius Jackson and AQM not minimize them and I'm all in. From what I can tell, listing Aranda would be based on the assumption that he would change what he asked his DE and DT to do fit their talents.

Again, why do you care if it's AQM getting the sacks versus Grace getting them? I don't give a **** who does what or how it's done or what it looks like or if it makes the ghetto high school coaches happy. I care about having elite defenses, which is what Aranda has had his whole career.

People like you are why the school didn't hire Tom Herman. Didn't even consider him. B/C they care more about the process than the result.

I want the result. I'd like to be an elite team again. If that means having a top 5 defense using a single gap 3-4, then bring it on.

 

[BWCD]

I'm to the point where I hope we hire a 3-4 DC so FullyELimp will quit bleeding all over any DC threads.

 

[Dynasty]

Bc he is 2 gapping. Like in the first pic where it clearly says "can 2 gap". A 4-3 team 2 gapping while the 3-4 doesnt.

Understand the point of "can 2 gap." However, as stated the key is the shaded DTs. If that "two gap" DT does indeed stack, then it becomes a combo front. It isn't a pure penetrating front. The thing is you can play this game in either a 3-4 or 4-3 front. Personally, I don't want any part of a 3-4 or 4-3 system that uses combo fronts.

You made a point that is made up. The entire premise is that the only difference between a single gap 3-4 and a single gap 4-3 is the alignment. Anything else you do can be done in either scheme. You can play over, under, bear, etc etc FROM EITHER SYSTEM. You can play 1 side 2 gap, one side single gap in EITHER SYSTEM. You can play strictly 2 gap IN EITHER SYSTEM, or strictly one gap IN EITHER SYSTEM.

IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER.

The only thing that matters is the gap assignments.

What point did I make up? My premise is strictly related to the alignment of the DTs. Either they are shaded and coming upfield or they aren't.

Your premise is irrelevant to the topic at hand which is that the only thing that matters whether it is 4-3 or 3-4 is how you play the gaps, and that either system can utilize small, fast players getting up the field.

LOL. Dude you said I made up ****. And you reply with this.^^^ foolishness...stick to reading about football on the internet. I'm done!!

 

[fincane]

So you point to a college defense like Aranda's and say its a system that doesn't work with talented players.

Then you say NFL defenses don't count bc they are too talented and you can't compare to college.

Do you have autism or Downs?

I can see you're getting frustrated because you've devolved into name calling and misinformation. I never said it didn't work with talented players. The NFL doesn't count. It isn't the same game. You have grown men ready to play it. Wisconsin redshirts every DL they get their hands on if they can. I'm still waiting on you to tell me why south Florida front 7 players aren't being gobbled up by the best 3-4 defenses in the country.

You can talk about all the positives of it and I haven't disagreed but why would I install a system that the players I focus on recruiting aren't interested in playing in? Or at least don't appear to be recruited to play in. They can be misinformed as **** but you start talking about the 3-4 to south Florida kids and taking up blockers and watch the reactions.

Jesus christ.

Your issue is that you STILL equate all 3-4 defenses. Bob Diaco's at ND is different from Al Goldens, which is different from Sabans, which is different from Clancy Pendergasts, which is different from Dave Aranda and Todd Orlando's.

You are correct. Small, quick twitch Florida players don't do well in Golden or Diaco's 2-gap systems.

They also aren't as suited for Saban's combo of 2 gap and 1 gap, which require much bigger, more powerful athletes. Or Pendergasts 52 defense.

However, there exist versions of the 3-4, which are relatively new, modern and less common, that are both highly effective and based on speed over size.

That's the whole point. The entire thing people have been trying to explain to you is that being "anti-34" is not logical, b/c the systems are all vastly different. And there are some that WOULD fit South Florida personnel.

List the ones that take advantage of the skill sets of Chad Thomas, Demetrius Jackson and AQM not minimize them and I'm all in. From what I can tell, listing Aranda would be based on the assumption that he would change what he asked his DE and DT to do fit their talents.

Again, why do you care if it's AQM getting the sacks versus Grace getting them? I don't give a **** who does what or how it's done or what it looks like or if it makes the ghetto high school coaches happy. I care about having elite defenses, which is what Aranda has had his whole career.

People like you are why the school didn't hire Tom Herman. Didn't even consider him. B/C they care more about the process than the result.

I want the result. I'd like to be an elite team again. If that means having a top 5 defense using a single gap 3-4, then bring it on.

First stop lying. You don't need to. It makes you sound like a fanboy. He hasn't had elite defenses his whole career.

I actually wanted Herman before any other candidate, clown.

I haven't brought up a high school coach once.

Why would you want a system that lessens the impact of your most talented players and the ones you have the most access to? Navy puts up huge rushing numbers every year and wins alot of games. Is their option attack the best fit for the type of players we have access to on a consistent basis? Aranda's defense wouldn't be that dramatic a shift but pretending like its just plug and play and everybody would be on board to play in it is naive.

 

[CanesAreAble]

Is it really to much to ask to have 4 guys up front all with their hands in the dirt physically, mentally, and emotionally dominating the person in front of them, wreaking havoc and living in the backfield?

Hey, I love the tradition, but I'm coming around to the fact that, in order to beat up spread teams consistently, your front needs to cause confusion AND get upfield. All I'm saying is that you can do that from the 3-4 by having a guy like AQM stand up. Not a big deal.

People thinking of the 3-4 Golden ran is pointless. It was based on contain. Offensive personnel groupings would actually dictate the defensive alignment. It is a relic created for a different era of offense.

Golden and D'Ono ran a 3-4 the way the redcoats fought wars. Except, they were asked to lead a ground force in modern day Fallujah. The point of this thread should be that you can run a 3-4 capable of being adaptive enough to fight in the modern day.

Keep fighting the good fight, man.

But too many people seem to have a mental roadblock when it comes to the 3-4 defense. It's kinda sad to see despite mountains of evidence.

 

[jss007]

Wade Phillips ran his 3-4 with a baby sized (relatively) Jay Ratliff. His biggest advantages? Leverage and speed. He weighed 285 pounds and played 0-tech (shaded).

We have guys like Norton and Jenkins who could disrupt the **** out of an offense from the same position (and are actually bigger than Ratliff was in the NFL).

I'd even go so far as to ask both of them to slim down and optimize their get off.

Why do we keep using NFL examples along with a potential hall of fame coordinator and a 4-time pro bowler? Why do these systems work in college? Who in the college ranks can we compare our guys too and is that defense sustainable year to year? Are we going to need grown men and who have "got the system down" to run it effectively?

A 3-4 one gap system is totally sustainable year to year and I was probably the biggest skeptic, from jump, of the 3-4 version D'Ono and Al ran. I called it unlikely to ever be sustainable from the beginning because of its need for guys with 3-4 year strength. Stanford has a lot of those guys and they STILL one gap.

Whatever the **** Aranda does is only tangentially relevant to what I'm talking about:

It is possible, if not totally feasible, to run a sustainable 3-4 defense if you're talking about a one-gap, upfield system.

0-shades need to be quick and play with leverage. We'd need at least one of these types to run an effective 4-3, anyway.
3-techs need length and explosiveness. We'd need these types to run an effective 4-3, anyway.
5-techs need length and versatility. If anything, I think SoFla is now growing many of these types. We have at least 2 committed to us right now.
6+ need speed, length, flexibility. Should not be a problem.

At LB, FSU ran an effective 3-4 with Telvin Smith tipping the scales at just over 210 and wirey. We can get these types.

All the style of DBs we need grow here and would/should want to play in an aggressive, up-field scheme that makes them look better.

I'm not even a strict 3-4 guy, but I don't see the problem.

I learn more from LuCane on this site than I learned from any high school coach or broadcast team. Good ****.

 

[CanesAreAble]

Why would you want a system that lessens the impact of your most talented players and the ones you have the most access to?

How would a defense built on speed and aggressiveness lessen the impact of our players?

 

[FullyERicht]

Why would you want a system that lessens the impact of your most talented players and the ones you have the most access to?

How would a defense built on speed and aggressiveness lessen the impact of our players?

B/C Bro 4-3 bro. Cover 2 man bro. Hialeah bro.

 

[fincane]

Why would you want a system that lessens the impact of your most talented players and the ones you have the most access to?

How would a defense built on speed and aggressiveness lessen the impact of our players?

Go look at the impact plays made by the guys who play AQM, Chad Thomas and Anthony Moten positions on the Wisconsin roster. Ole GoldenShowers says he doesn't care who makes the plays. Thats fine in theory. I think south Florida D-lineman have had enough of being asked to be cheeseburgers and coal shovelers by Miami the last 5 years. It certainly wouldn't be taking advantage of their best skills. I have no interest in minimizing what they do best.

Hey Samaje Perine you're a great north-south runner. Lets get you on some jet sweeps. DeShaun Watson we're gonna need you not to utilize your ability in the QB run game because the system calls you for you sacrifice your best attributes.

 

[TemplarCane]

No one argues Aranda is a skilled, creative DC. Why do some of us think he's locked into a single scheme? He is clearly making the most out of the talent he has. He would have a different breed at Miami and would adapt accordingly.

A lot of porsters are jaded by D'Onofrio. It's sad, but understandable.

I believe he gets a substantial raise, ends up staying at Wisconsin for another season or two, and then gets a HC opportunity.

 

[CanesAreAble]

Why would you want a system that lessens the impact of your most talented players and the ones you have the most access to?

How would a defense built on speed and aggressiveness lessen the impact of our players?

Go look at the impact plays made by the guys who play AQM, Chad Thomas and Anthony Moten positions on the Wisconsin roster. Ole GoldenShowers says he doesn't care who makes the plays. Thats fine in theory. I think south Florida D-lineman have had enough of being asked to be cheeseburgers and coal shovelers by Miami the last 5 years. It certainly wouldn't be taking advantage of their best skills. I have no interest in minimizing what they do best.

Except Wisconsin doesn't have the same access to talent.

AQM, Chad, and Moten were all recruited by both 1-gap and 2-gap teams.