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Measuring Great Teams

Gocanes1990 said:
Reason being I think we need top 5 talent to overcome Mario’s deficiencies which are not a secret.
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You know people may not want to admit this but Mario was FAR FAR better ate game management last season than the previous 2. I believe it's because he had a QB he trusted or whoever he hired for the in-game analytics decisions did a far better job.

Sure there may have been a handful of bad calls, but most of the decisions on when to go for it and timeout and all that were actually pretty **** good last year. And trust me this is something I absolutely hate when Coaches **** up at. Mario was much more aggressive in these decisions this year than likely any year of his career and it often times paid off big time. Again I think it's cause he trusted Cam. I hope he trusts Beck and calls it similar this yr.

The thing that continues to kinda infuriate me with his in game decisions is more so about who plays or does/doesn't receive certain snaps. Like when Fletcher would fumble and come right back in the game even though Martinez was clearly better AND we were already alternating drives anyways. Like that made no ******* sense whatsoever. If you fumble on your drive you don't get a ******* mulligan you blew your drive! So Like this yr if Fletcher fumbles and he's your #1 guy, I get getting him back in there. I mean even then Lyle should come in next drive... But last year? That **** ****ed me off to no end.

Also in game it's really just all about Coordinators. And I think Dawson is a very good college OC. I do think our OLine splits and run game plan is kinda lame and too conservative but that's whatever. Defensively last year I couldn't stand the constant stunting by our DLine. Hopefully hetherman is a big improvement. But also it's not like Guidry wasn't good his first year and just was some terrible hire...
 
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Calinative said:
You know people may not want to admit this but Mario was FAR FAR better ate game management last season than the previous 2. I believe it's because he had a QB he trusted or whoever he hired for the in-game analytics decisions did a far better job.

Sure there may have been a handful of bad calls, but most of the decisions on when to go for it and timeout and all that were actually pretty **** good last year. And trust me this is something I absolutely relate when Coaches **** up at. Mario was much more aggressive in these decisions this year than likely any year of his career and it often times paid off big time. Again I think it's cause he trusted Cam. I hope he trusts Beck and calls it similar this yr.

The thing that continues to kinda infuriate me with his in game decisions is more so about who plays or does/doesn't receive certain snaps. Like when Fletcher would fumble and come right back in the game even though Martinez was clearly better. Like this yr if Fletcher fumbles and he's your #1 guy, I get getting him back in there. But last year? That **** ****ed me off.

Also in game it's really just all about Coordinators. And I think Dawson is a very good college OC. I do think our OLine splits and run game plan is kinda lame and too conservative but that's whatever. Defensively last year I couldn't stand the constant stunting by our DLine. Hopefully hetherman is a big improvement. But also it's not like Guidry wasn't good his first year and just was some terrible hire...
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Agreed, I do think cam bailed him out a lot last year. But all good points….

Hard for me to overlook Cuse mismanagement though. And some really bad coaching hires as you pointed out.
 
Gocanes1990 said:
How many players on this team start / contribute to any top ten team? For me it’s 4

- Lyle
- Bain
- Francis M
- Lofton

In answering this question, you likely find out where we rank against true contenders.
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bain, cici, elija, beck (healthy), poyser - thats it on my end.
 
Calinative said:
You know people may not want to admit this but Mario was FAR FAR better ate game management last season than the previous 2. I believe it's because he had a QB he trusted or whoever he hired for the in-game analytics decisions did a far better job.

Sure there may have been a handful of bad calls, but most of the decisions on when to go for it and timeout and all that were actually pretty **** good last year. And trust me this is something I absolutely hate when Coaches **** up at. Mario was much more aggressive in these decisions this year than likely any year of his career and it often times paid off big time. Again I think it's cause he trusted Cam. I hope he trusts Beck and calls it similar this yr.

The thing that continues to kinda infuriate me with his in game decisions is more so about who plays or does/doesn't receive certain snaps. Like when Fletcher would fumble and come right back in the game even though Martinez was clearly better AND we were already alternating drives anyways. Like that made no ******* sense whatsoever. If you fumble on your drive you don't get a ******* mulligan you blew your drive! So Like this yr if Fletcher fumbles and he's your #1 guy, I get getting him back in there. I mean even then Lyle should come in next drive... But last year? That **** ****ed me off to no end.

Also in game it's really just all about Coordinators. And I think Dawson is a very good college OC. I do think our OLine splits and run game plan is kinda lame and too conservative but that's whatever. Defensively last year I couldn't stand the constant stunting by our DLine. Hopefully hetherman is a big improvement. But also it's not like Guidry wasn't good his first year and just was some terrible hire...
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I've said it 50X since the end of the year, his in-game coaching was much better last year. Imagine showing an Oregon fan video of Mario Cristobal going for it on 4th down multiple times from his own 30 yard line.

No coach is going to be perfect, **** the dudes who do it in the NFL are criticized incessantly. But I thought, for the most part, he was good at kicking when he needed to kick, calling timeouts when he needed to, not burning them when we didn't need to, going for it on 4th down, etc.

And honestly, that's not what concerns me the most as far as coaching. Of course I'd prefer it all to be totally buttoned up, but what I look for a lot more is preparation. The really little/easy things. How many pre-snap penalties did we have on offense last year? How many illegal formations? How many times did we line up off-sides? How many too many men on the field penalties? How many times did we have two guys wearing the same number on the field together? Now, the defensive communication was an abomination. We all know that. And that's why Guidry isn't here any longer, but that all falls under Mario's watch, of course. So I'm not saying it was some incredibly coached team in every aspect. But for the first time in a LONG time, I watched Miami games every week and wasn't just completely baffled and appalled at how unprepared and dumb the team looked. I'll bet we have fewer than 10 pre-snap penalties all season. That's insane.
 
Gocanes1990 said:
Yes, you are 100% right. I was multitasking watching hockey and I think this encapsulates my thought process perfectly. Reason being I think we need top 5 talent to overcome Mario’s deficiencies which are not a secret.
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I think with AI his coaching has gotten better, yes still has bad blunders for SURE and I dont want you to feel like im picking on you but can you name a champion in the last 25 years that didnt have top 5 talent?

I mean the list isnt that long:

Bama
Clemson
FSU
OSU
Michigan
UGA
Auburn
LSU
UF
Texas
USC

I may be missing one or two that are an outliers but I think a prerequisite to ANY championship team is having top 5 talent as I dont see anyone on that list in the last 25 years who didnt have top 5 talent.

Now I do not believe we are top 5 in talent right now. We leaped a bunch of teams since Mario has been here but we need to win, win consistently, and win some big games to finally push us back up into top 5 category.
 
Gocanes1990 said:
Agreed, I do think cam bailed him out a lot last year. But all good points….

Hard for me to overlook Cuse mismanagement though. And some really bad coaching hires as you pointed out.
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It's not bailing him out. We were like the best 3rd down team in the country by far. But he chose to be aggressive on his 4th down decisions, made correct calls when to kick. And didn't get super conservative on drive plans. The only really Syracuse mismanagement was choosing to have Lyle in the game so much. But like we were up 21-7, so that first drive with Lyle in absolutely made sense.
But the Syracuse game was mostly about our Defense just sucking **** tbh. Well that and Restrepo fumbling and giving them 7pts free.

The 4th and goal decision to kick a FG with 5mins left is definitely a tough one. And it's not like he made one of our guys get a 15yard penalty in the Red zone to put us at a big disadvantage behind sticks. Idk what the analytics says but I wouldn't be surprised if they really agreed with kicking there. We had 5mins left on a 4th and goal from the 10.

That is the kind of decision that obviously nobody is going to be a fan of. But analytically I can see being the correct decision. I'd probably go for it and hope to God if you don't convert that your defense is able to do literally anything, BUT it's important to say regardless to win the game you are relying on your defense getting a stop. It's really not as clear cut as people make it out to be. Because in that situation you need a TD+FG+Defensive stop to win no matter what. And obviously converting a 4th and goal from 10 has very low odds. And if you don't convert going for that 4th you basically make it extremely unlikely you win in Regulation regardless of you get the defensive stop. But this is what I'm talking about, fans will say look this is just another Example of Mario being bad gameday coach. The reality is this decision was no worse than a coin flip. But people act like it was an obvious go for it decision.. . It wasn't.
 
Calinative said:
It's not bailing him out. We were like the best 3rd down team in the country by far. But he chose to be aggressive on his 4th down decisions, made correct calls when to kick. And didn't get super conservative on drive plans. The only really Syracuse mismanagement was choosing to have Lyle in the game so much. But like we were up 21-7, so that first drive with Lyle in absolutely made sense.
But the Syracuse game was mostly about our Defense just sucking **** tbh. Well that and Restrepo fumbling and giving them 7pts free.

The 4th and goal decision to kick a FG with 5mins left is definitely a tough one. And it's not like he made one of our guys get a 15yard penalty in the Red zone to put us at a big disadvantage behind sticks. Idk what the analytics says but I wouldn't be surprised if they really agreed with kicking there. We had 5mins left on a 4th and goal from the 10.

That is the kind of decision that obviously nobody is going to be a fan of. But analytically I can see being the correct decision. I'd probably go for it and hope to God if you don't convert that your defense is able to do literally anything, BUT it's important to say regardless to win the game you are relying on your defense getting a stop. It's really not as clear cut as people make it out to be. Because in that situation you need a TD+FG+Defensive stop to win no matter what. And obviously converting a 4th and goal from 10 has very low odds. And if you don't convert going for that 4th you basically make it extremely unlikely you win in Regulation regardless of you get the defensive stop. But this is what I'm talking about, fans will say look this is just another Example of Mario being bad gameday coach. The reality is this decision was no worse than a coin flip. But people act like it was an obvious go for it decision.. . It wasn't.
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I think I get more frustrated by the fact that we got boat raced by VT, GT (kinda), cal for 3,5 quarters. That’s not gameday entirely but it’s preparation. It’s mental makeup, it’s good coaching. That’s what I mean by Cam bailing him out.
 
Gocanes1990 said:
I think I get more frustrated by the fact that we got boat raced by VT, GT (kinda), cal for 3,5 quarters. That’s not gameday entirely but it’s preparation. It’s mental makeup, it’s good coaching. That’s what I mean by Cam bailing him out.
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It happens. Ohio State got boat-raced by Michigan and they couldn't complete a forward pass. There's a reason ZERO teams went undefeated last year. Oregon is the only team who lost even one game. Less than 10 teams in the entire country only lost TWO games. It's really hard to just beat the everloving **** out of every single team every single week. It just very rarely happens. The 2001 team needed Matt Walters' knee and Ernest Wilford's butterfingers, and they had 300 All-Pros.

The coaching on defense was obviously awful, and that's on Mario. He hired Guidry, so it's on him. But the overall preparation of the team, the down to down execution, especially on offense, was incredibly refreshing. Cam is Cam, he sure bails teams and coaches out at times. But there are 10 other dudes out there doing their jobs too. And even more, being Miami fans, we should say there are 10 other dudes out there who can **** something up. And we've seen it for years and years. We didn't see much of it last year.

Mario's gameday coaching was very good. The offense was prepared as ****. The defense was terrible, but not overly dumb in the sense of we had to burn a million timeouts or we had guys jumping offsides/lining up offsides, which we've seen forever. We weren't running guys in and out like chickens with their heads cut off. We just couldn't cover a ******* SOUL. And that's why Guidry is probably eating some gumbo right now and not here.

We also didn't get boat-raced by VT. We had 500 yards of offense in that game, they had 395. The biggest lead they had at any point was 10 points. We turned the ball over 3 times, that's why that game was close.
 
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Hurracanes said:
It’s year 4 and if you think our roster is in the level of the Oregon’s, LSU’s, OSU’s, UGA’s, Bama, Texas, etc. of the world then I can’t help you.
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Kind of reminds me of the last 10 pounds is the hardest to shed type of truth. We have shed quite a bit of fat hypothetically by now being the most talented ACC team minus Clemson, yet the last 10 (the truly elite teams) will be the hardest to catch. It will take a couple more years of near perfection in hs recruiting, portal acquisition, and development to catch them.
 
OrangeBowlMagic said:
It happens. Ohio State got boat-raced by Michigan and they couldn't complete a forward pass. There's a reason ZERO teams went undefeated last year. Oregon is the only team who lost even one game. Less than 10 teams in the entire country only lost TWO games. It's really hard to just beat the everloving **** out of every single team every single week. It just very rarely happens. The 2001 team needed Matt Walters' knee and Ernest Wilford's butterfingers, and they had 300 All-Pros.

The coaching on defense was obviously awful, and that's on Mario. He hired Guidry, so it's on him. But the overall preparation of the team, the down to down execution, especially on offense, was incredibly refreshing. Cam is Cam, he sure bails teams and coaches out at times. But there are 10 other dudes out there doing their jobs too. And even more, being Miami fans, we should say there are 10 other dudes out there who can **** something up. And we've seen it for years and years. We didn't see much of it last year.

Mario's gameday coaching was very good. The offense was prepared as ****. The defense was terrible, but not overly dumb in the sense of we had to burn a million timeouts or we had guys jumping offsides/lining up offsides, which we've seen forever. We weren't running guys in and out like chickens with their heads cut off. We just couldn't cover a ******* SOUL. And that's why Guidry is probably eating some gumbo right now and not here.

We also didn't get boat-raced by VT. We had 500 yards of offense in that game, they had 395. The biggest lead they had at any point was 10 points. We turned the ball over 3 times, that's why that game was close.
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My point is, these teams aren’t close to where we are talent wise.

Being prepared was Miami vs UF. That was far and away our best game of the season. Also he’s the head coach. The defense sucked, that’s on him. He looked at the defense last year during the portal and prioritized things where he did. They acquired the players they did thinking it WAS GOOD ENOUGH to win the conference.

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills trying to have rational conversations about this team. It’s no where close to where it should be in regards to talent based on what we are spending. If you knew, you’d feel the same. It’s not far off from the top 3-4 rosters in the game.

Last year it was the secondary (which was super injured but mediocre when healthy and got awful when decimated). This year it’s DT. We need to pray that that position stays healthy and / or our freshmen step up (tall order) over the course of 13+ games.
 
Gocanes1990 said:
My point is, these teams aren’t close to where we are talent wise.

Being prepared was Miami vs UF. That was far and away our best game of the season. Also he’s the head coach. The defense sucked, that’s on him. He looked at the defense last year during the portal and prioritized things where he did. They acquired the players they did thinking it WAS GOOD ENOUGH to win the conference.

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills trying to have rational conversations about this team. It’s no where close to where it should be in regards to talent based on what we are spending. If you knew, you’d feel the same. It’s not far off from the top 3-4 rosters in the game.

Last year it was the secondary (which was super injured but mediocre when healthy and got awful when decimated). This year it’s DT. We need to pray that that position stays healthy and / or our freshmen step up (tall order) over the course of 13+ games.
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It's not far off from the top 3-4, meaning it's below them, and meaning we should have talent somewhere around 10th best in the country, which is probably about where we actually fall.

Is it August yet? This **** is already exhausting and we have the whole ******* summer. Let's play some football and see what happens.
 
DMoney said:
Those rosters are probably better. But we've leapfrogged a lot of teams in between, and there is more parity between the top rosters and the next level than ever before.

Establish the brand with consistent winning, and then we can close that final gap pretty fast.
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That’s a fair point and don’t necessarily disagree. I believe if Miami is serious about winning championships then we have to compare our rosters to the top tier programs rather than the level below.

A lot on the line this season, I hope I am dead wrong and eat a lot of crow.
 
Damiencane86 said:
Kind of reminds me of the last 10 pounds is the hardest to shed type of truth. We have shed quite a bit of fat hypothetically by now being the most talented ACC team minus Clemson, yet the last 10 (the truly elite teams) will be the hardest to catch. It will take a couple more years of near perfection in hs recruiting, portal acquisition, and development to catch them.
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With the amount of resources that is provided to Mario, Clemson should be fearing us.

My confidence in recruiting and portal additions have taken a major, major, blow this last recruiting and portal class.
 
Hard to say because lots of top 10 teams lost lots of talent and we have some good talent returning or joining the team.

These are the kids I would say as starters for other top 10 teams.

Beck
Lofton
Franics
Cooper
Bell
Lyle
Fletcher
Bain
Mesidor
2-3 DBs IMO

Then you have kids who didn't get tons of snaps last year or are freshmen who could show up big
JoJo
Toney
Lightfoot(hope he gets snaps)
Scott
Blout
Pickett(I like this kid and wish he would get snaps over Bryant)

We also have a kicker who started for a top 5 team.
 
DTP said:
Carson Beck won the SEC last year on a team that finished 6th in the AP poll but wouldn’t start for any top 10 team.


This is what we have become.
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But he’s currently not starting for a top10 team so that’s the devils advocate is really just an a-hole of that one.
 
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Gocanes1990 said:
My point is, these teams aren’t close to where we are talent wise.

Being prepared was Miami vs UF. That was far and away our best game of the season. Also he’s the head coach. The defense sucked, that’s on him. He looked at the defense last year during the portal and prioritized things where he did. They acquired the players they did thinking it WAS GOOD ENOUGH to win the conference.

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills trying to have rational conversations about this team. It’s no where close to where it should be in regards to talent based on what we are spending. If you knew, you’d feel the same. It’s not far off from the top 3-4 rosters in the game.

Last year it was the secondary (which was super injured but mediocre when healthy and got awful when decimated). This year it’s DT. We need to pray that that position stays healthy and / or our freshmen step up (tall order) over the course of 13+ games.
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This year will be LB room.
 
Hurracanes said:
With the amount of resources that is provided to Mario, Clemson should be fearing us.

My confidence in recruiting and portal additions have taken a major, major, blow this last recruiting and portal class.
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It does feel like more elite kids are distancing themselves from us as opposed to gaining traction and landing more
 
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