Lu, ? re/safety position

[LuCane]

Combining the two + Ray Lewis' mentality = Jordan.

Had to add whatever special thing Jordan had in his uncompromising brain.

 

[Ethnicsands]

Combining the two + Ray Lewis' mentality = Jordan.

Had to add whatever special thing Jordan had in his uncompromising brain.

No doubt, though I think of reed as bringing a lot of that too. Maybe also it's a difference between hoops and football. Ray's more of a rally the troops guy than mj ever was. Ray might be the best team leader/motivator ever. Mike was a look you in the eye to motivate you guy, and a lead from the front general. But mike was probably the bitterest competitor ever. He just needed to win more than anyone else. I've never seen anyone illustrate "wanting it more" better than him, or even close to him. And both mike and ray are guys whose teammates absolutely knew would do their part, and guys who their teammates didnt want to let them down.

 

[LuCane]

Combining the two + Ray Lewis' mentality = Jordan.

Had to add whatever special thing Jordan had in his uncompromising brain.

No doubt, though I think of reed as bringing a lot of that too. Maybe also it's a difference between hoops and football. Ray's more of a rally the troops guy than mj ever was. Ray might be the best team leader/motivator ever. Mike was a look you in the eye to motivate you guy, and a lead from the front general. But mike was probably the bitterest competitor ever. He just needed to win more than anyone else. I've never seen anyone illustrate "wanting it more" better than him, or even close to him. And both mike and ray are guys whose teammates absolutely knew would do their part, and guys who their teammates didnt want to let them down.

There's so much to be said about that. Even as a kid, that was the characteristic I admired most. I thought of him as an assassin. I guess it led to the personal tendency to go too far and take things (from pickup games to less) too seriously.

 

[MiamiNites]

I'll weigh in with take Taylor every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Great instincts + great athletic abilities.

Reed may have unique understanding, but he's one of a kind. You can't go find that. It's incredibly rare.

But 98% of football is instincts, skills and athletic ability, and Taylor had them in spades. And you can find kids with great athletic ability and who make plays and look to have the potential for great instincts. Getting them to sign with us is another matter, unfortunately.

I was asked my choice. I'd obviously recruit Sean Taylor or anyone like him, lol. Especially since he literally jumped over members of my HS football team. Literally.

Sean Taylor could have realistically played Corner in a pinch. He could have realistically played LB in a pinch. That's just weird.

Taylor was a freak athlete, no doubt. Maybe the best I've ever seen on a football field. Certainly one of the few best.

But my point wasn't between ST and ER, more that the Taylor model (athlete + instincts) is a lot easier to identify and recruit than the Reed model (Jedi understanding). I expect I'll see another ST level athlete at S before I see another Reed-level Obi Wan.

Jedi? Sands saying it's easier to find a Darth Vader than it is to find Yoda.

Based on his post he don't know...It's obvious he doesn't undertand what instinct is since understanding the game and instinct go hand in hand. You can't be insticntive without understanding the game. It all comes down to understanding how to prepare, film study ( recognizing route combinations, player tendencies, player habits, where/how they line in doing certain things technoque or play wise up etc)...all these factor into you ability to look instictive. Instincts mean you have an understanding for the game and you understand prepapration.

 

[Canesfan1899]

If you look at the 2 S we have, I would say neither really have any of the attributes Lu mentioned. Neither play well in space, neither react/identify plays quickly, and both take terrible angles to the ball. All of that taken together is likely why we have seen so little blitzing this year from coach D, he just doesn't have enough faith in the back end of the defense.

 

[NotoriousJJE]

Combining the two + Ray Lewis' mentality = Jordan.

Had to add whatever special thing Jordan had in his uncompromising brain.

But mike was probably the bitterest competitor ever. He just needed to win more than anyone else. I've never seen anyone illustrate "wanting it more" better than him, or even close to him.

I might get blasted for this, but if we are switching sports and we are talking about "wanting it more" and mentality, then you have to throw Tiger in there as well (pre-divorce). The things he did and at the situations he did them are some of the most ridiculous sports accomplishments of our time. IMO, on the level or above the level with MJ. Tiger was not human for a LONG time...

 

[LuCane]

I'll weigh in with take Taylor every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Great instincts + great athletic abilities.

Reed may have unique understanding, but he's one of a kind. You can't go find that. It's incredibly rare.

But 98% of football is instincts, skills and athletic ability, and Taylor had them in spades. And you can find kids with great athletic ability and who make plays and look to have the potential for great instincts. Getting them to sign with us is another matter, unfortunately.

I was asked my choice. I'd obviously recruit Sean Taylor or anyone like him, lol. Especially since he literally jumped over members of my HS football team. Literally.

Sean Taylor could have realistically played Corner in a pinch. He could have realistically played LB in a pinch. That's just weird.

Taylor was a freak athlete, no doubt. Maybe the best I've ever seen on a football field. Certainly one of the few best.

But my point wasn't between ST and ER, more that the Taylor model (athlete + instincts) is a lot easier to identify and recruit than the Reed model (Jedi understanding). I expect I'll see another ST level athlete at S before I see another Reed-level Obi Wan.

Jedi? Sands saying it's easier to find a Darth Vader than it is to find Yoda.

Based on his post he don't know...It's obvious he doesn't undertand what instinct is since understanding the game and instinct go hand in hand. You can't be insticntive without understanding the game. It all comes down to understanding how to prepare, film study ( recognizing route combinations, player tendencies, player habits, where/how they line in doing certain things technoque or play wise up etc)...all these factor into you ability to look instictive. Instincts mean you have an understanding for the game and you understand prepapration.

Nites,

The distinction that was made between "instinct" and "understanding" was really about athleticism. Basically, quick reactions come predominantly from the mind or body. That's how I interpreted the distinction.

 

[Pennmed Canefan]

Honestly, were I picking safeties, I put a high premium on their ability to cover. I think intimidation is overrated and having big guys back there is overrated as well IMO. Tackling is not. I'd be fine taking an undersized, tough guy who can tackle but has the athleticism to cover. If you have that, you have the flexibility to run practically any defense you want to run except perhaps one that is reliably an 8 man front. Problem #1 with our current safeties IMO is that they aren't athletic enough to cover--be it covering man up or covering a lot of ground single high. That limits what you can do defensively. A guy like Brandon Meriweather allows you to do almost anything you want defensively. Ray Ray Armstrong does not--you cannot put him on a receiver unless the ball is coming out in microseconds. Meriweather is probably the last guy that we had that you could expect to cover somebody man up or to be able to run with a receiver passed to him.

D'Onofrio's done a decent job mixing things up but his truest limitation is that he can only reliably get away with straight zone. If he wants to blitz, he needs to be playing 3 under 3 deep behind it or 4 under 2 deep. Anything else is a colossal risk. If he gets more athletic at safety he'll be able to do more.

 

[gogeta4]

Honestly, were I picking safeties, I put a high premium on their ability to cover. I think intimidation is overrated and having big guys back there is overrated as well IMO. Tackling is not. I'd be fine taking an undersized, tough guy who can tackle but has the athleticism to cover. If you have that, you have the flexibility to run practically any defense you want to run except perhaps one that is reliably an 8 man front. Problem #1 with our current safeties IMO is that they aren't athletic enough to cover--be it covering man up or covering a lot of ground single high. That limits what you can do defensively. A guy like Brandon Meriweather allows you to do almost anything you want defensively. Ray Ray Armstrong does not--you cannot put him on a receiver unless the ball is coming out in microseconds. Meriweather is probably the last guy that we had that you could expect to cover somebody man up or to be able to run with a receiver passed to him.

D'Onofrio's done a decent job mixing things up but his truest limitation is that he can only reliably get away with straight zone. If he wants to blitz, he needs to be playing 3 under 3 deep behind it or 4 under 2 deep. Anything else is a colossal risk. If he gets more athletic at safety he'll be able to do more.

probably one thing i liked that randy did was bring in safeties and start them at cb as soon as they came in to develop some sort of covg ability. I mean like you said Ray Ray and Telamaque both have ball skills...but those two guys both run 4.7 40's.

The problem i see is we havent addressed it in recruiting yet..(unless rashawn Jenkins has showed that ability)...Deon Bush is a guy who probably can ...but he wants to start at cb....Right now i seriously dont think we have ONE safety that can cover a wr one on one.

 

[Ethnicsands]

I'll weigh in with take Taylor every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Great instincts + great athletic abilities.

Reed may have unique understanding, but he's one of a kind. You can't go find that. It's incredibly rare.

But 98% of football is instincts, skills and athletic ability, and Taylor had them in spades. And you can find kids with great athletic ability and who make plays and look to have the potential for great instincts. Getting them to sign with us is another matter, unfortunately.

I was asked my choice. I'd obviously recruit Sean Taylor or anyone like him, lol. Especially since he literally jumped over members of my HS football team. Literally.

Sean Taylor could have realistically played Corner in a pinch. He could have realistically played LB in a pinch. That's just weird.

Taylor was a freak athlete, no doubt. Maybe the best I've ever seen on a football field. Certainly one of the few best.

But my point wasn't between ST and ER, more that the Taylor model (athlete + instincts) is a lot easier to identify and recruit than the Reed model (Jedi understanding). I expect I'll see another ST level athlete at S before I see another Reed-level Obi Wan.

Jedi? Sands saying it's easier to find a Darth Vader than it is to find Yoda.

Based on his post he don't know...It's obvious he doesn't undertand what instinct is since understanding the game and instinct go hand in hand. You can't be insticntive without understanding the game. It all comes down to understanding how to prepare, film study ( recognizing route combinations, player tendencies, player habits, where/how they line in doing certain things technoque or play wise up etc)...all these factor into you ability to look instictive. Instincts mean you have an understanding for the game and you understand prepapration.

Nites,

The distinction that was made between "instinct" and "understanding" was really about athleticism. Basically, quick reactions come predominantly from the mind or body. That's how I interpreted the distinction.

He's just trolling.

 

[Duval904]

Honestly, were I picking safeties, I put a high premium on their ability to cover. I think intimidation is overrated and having big guys back there is overrated as well IMO. Tackling is not. I'd be fine taking an undersized, tough guy who can tackle but has the athleticism to cover. If you have that, you have the flexibility to run practically any defense you want to run except perhaps one that is reliably an 8 man front. Problem #1 with our current safeties IMO is that they aren't athletic enough to cover--be it covering man up or covering a lot of ground single high. That limits what you can do defensively. A guy like Brandon Meriweather allows you to do almost anything you want defensively. Ray Ray Armstrong does not--you cannot put him on a receiver unless the ball is coming out in microseconds. Meriweather is probably the last guy that we had that you could expect to cover somebody man up or to be able to run with a receiver passed to him.

D'Onofrio's done a decent job mixing things up but his truest limitation is that he can only reliably get away with straight zone. If he wants to blitz, he needs to be playing 3 under 3 deep behind it or 4 under 2 deep. Anything else is a colossal risk. If he gets more athletic at safety he'll be able to do more.

probably one thing i liked that randy did was bring in safeties and start them at cb as soon as they came in to develop some sort of covg ability. I mean like you said Ray Ray and Telamaque both have ball skills...but those two guys both run 4.7 40's.

The problem i see is we havent addressed it in recruiting yet..(unless rashawn Jenkins has showed that ability)...Deon Bush is a guy who probably can ...but he wants to start at cb....Right now i seriously dont think we have ONE safety that can cover a wr one on one.

develop cover ability? i don't care how bad you may want a guy to "develop" cover ability but they're either going to have it or not man.

 

[LuCane]

Honestly, were I picking safeties, I put a high premium on their ability to cover. I think intimidation is overrated and having big guys back there is overrated as well IMO. Tackling is not. I'd be fine taking an undersized, tough guy who can tackle but has the athleticism to cover. If you have that, you have the flexibility to run practically any defense you want to run except perhaps one that is reliably an 8 man front. Problem #1 with our current safeties IMO is that they aren't athletic enough to cover--be it covering man up or covering a lot of ground single high. That limits what you can do defensively. A guy like Brandon Meriweather allows you to do almost anything you want defensively. Ray Ray Armstrong does not--you cannot put him on a receiver unless the ball is coming out in microseconds. Meriweather is probably the last guy that we had that you could expect to cover somebody man up or to be able to run with a receiver passed to him.

D'Onofrio's done a decent job mixing things up but his truest limitation is that he can only reliably get away with straight zone. If he wants to blitz, he needs to be playing 3 under 3 deep behind it or 4 under 2 deep. Anything else is a colossal risk. If he gets more athletic at safety he'll be able to do more.

Basically. What I talked about was flexibility and coverage skills. You may not care about the NFL, but what happens up there trickles down to the college level, and that's where the game is going for Safeties. When I wrote "size/wingspan," it had nothing to do with intimidation or hitting ability. It had to do with the ability to cover space and cover space in tight areas (play big). This is why defensive coaches look for Corners with impressive wingspans.

Your last paragraph is exactly the point. I agree with every single word. If you look at the pre-FSU analysis, you'll see the seam as our biggest weakness. Why? Lack of range.

We sometimes disagree, but that was an excellent post, PMC.

 

[Canesbball]

Our problem here is that our top safety should be playing SLB. Its obviously too late to move him now but let's be honest, Ray Ray isn't good in coverage down the field. He's a tremendous athlete and a good tackler.

 

[Pennmed Canefan]

Honestly, were I picking safeties, I put a high premium on their ability to cover. I think intimidation is overrated and having big guys back there is overrated as well IMO. Tackling is not. I'd be fine taking an undersized, tough guy who can tackle but has the athleticism to cover. If you have that, you have the flexibility to run practically any defense you want to run except perhaps one that is reliably an 8 man front. Problem #1 with our current safeties IMO is that they aren't athletic enough to cover--be it covering man up or covering a lot of ground single high. That limits what you can do defensively. A guy like Brandon Meriweather allows you to do almost anything you want defensively. Ray Ray Armstrong does not--you cannot put him on a receiver unless the ball is coming out in microseconds. Meriweather is probably the last guy that we had that you could expect to cover somebody man up or to be able to run with a receiver passed to him.

D'Onofrio's done a decent job mixing things up but his truest limitation is that he can only reliably get away with straight zone. If he wants to blitz, he needs to be playing 3 under 3 deep behind it or 4 under 2 deep. Anything else is a colossal risk. If he gets more athletic at safety he'll be able to do more.

probably one thing i liked that randy did was bring in safeties and start them at cb as soon as they came in to develop some sort of covg ability. I mean like you said Ray Ray and Telamaque both have ball skills...but those two guys both run 4.7 40's.

The problem i see is we havent addressed it in recruiting yet..(unless rashawn Jenkins has showed that ability)...Deon Bush is a guy who probably can ...but he wants to start at cb....Right now i seriously dont think we have ONE safety that can cover a wr one on one.

develop cover ability? i don't care how bad you may want a guy to "develop" cover ability but they're either going to have it or not man.

As far as I'm concerned the Shannon safety-at-corner thing is basically fallacy. It started somewhere (maybe even from him) and just became jargon but was essentially untrue. For the most part, Shannon played guys at corner who could contribute at corner. Meriweather started as a corner here because he was 170 lbs and better suited to play dime corner for his early teams. Randy Phillips started at corner because he was small for a safety and could contribute in 2005 as a dime corner. Taylor never played corner. Sikes never played corner. Threat, Ponder, Willie Cooper, Nicolas, Armstrong--never played corner. He didn't routinely start guys off playing corner. I do think you can improve guys' coverage skills by forcing them to do so but you also have to recruit guys who can cover. Ray Ray is not suited to cover anybody. Telemaque probably once could but he's kind of thicker and slower now. Nicolas is a bit stiff but better than those guys and has not coincidentally been the most valuable safety on the team recently.

 

[gogeta4]

Honestly, were I picking safeties, I put a high premium on their ability to cover. I think intimidation is overrated and having big guys back there is overrated as well IMO. Tackling is not. I'd be fine taking an undersized, tough guy who can tackle but has the athleticism to cover. If you have that, you have the flexibility to run practically any defense you want to run except perhaps one that is reliably an 8 man front. Problem #1 with our current safeties IMO is that they aren't athletic enough to cover--be it covering man up or covering a lot of ground single high. That limits what you can do defensively. A guy like Brandon Meriweather allows you to do almost anything you want defensively. Ray Ray Armstrong does not--you cannot put him on a receiver unless the ball is coming out in microseconds. Meriweather is probably the last guy that we had that you could expect to cover somebody man up or to be able to run with a receiver passed to him.

D'Onofrio's done a decent job mixing things up but his truest limitation is that he can only reliably get away with straight zone. If he wants to blitz, he needs to be playing 3 under 3 deep behind it or 4 under 2 deep. Anything else is a colossal risk. If he gets more athletic at safety he'll be able to do more.

probably one thing i liked that randy did was bring in safeties and start them at cb as soon as they came in to develop some sort of covg ability. I mean like you said Ray Ray and Telamaque both have ball skills...but those two guys both run 4.7 40's.

The problem i see is we havent addressed it in recruiting yet..(unless rashawn Jenkins has showed that ability)...Deon Bush is a guy who probably can ...but he wants to start at cb....Right now i seriously dont think we have ONE safety that can cover a wr one on one.

develop cover ability? i don't care how bad you may want a guy to "develop" cover ability but they're either going to have it or not man.

As far as I'm concerned the Shannon safety-at-corner thing is basically fallacy. It started somewhere (maybe even from him) and just became jargon but was essentially untrue. For the most part, Shannon played guys at corner who could contribute at corner. Meriweather started as a corner here because he was 170 lbs and better suited to play dime corner for his early teams. Randy Phillips started at corner because he was small for a safety and could contribute in 2005 as a dime corner. Taylor never played corner. Sikes never played corner. Threat, Ponder, Willie Cooper, Nicolas, Armstrong--never played corner. He didn't routinely start guys off playing corner. I do think you can improve guys' coverage skills by forcing them to do so but you also have to recruit guys who can cover. Ray Ray is not suited to cover anybody. Telemaque probably once could but he's kind of thicker and slower now. Nicolas is a bit stiff but better than those guys and has not coincidentally been the most valuable safety on the team recently.

randy started incoming freshman at cb........its stated....maybe the first practices or first week...but they usually cross trained guys early on.

BM could actually play cb which is why he played there some.

-Randy Phillips was never to small...he came in bigger than both of our starting cbs RIGHT NOW.

i didnt mean they played seasons at cb..early on in camp he always tried these guys at cb....or cross trained them...i think Telamaque even did it.

crazy part coming in i thought telamaque had range..expected him to be like KP....i forgot KP played like 30 yds off the ball at Carol City and was used to covering a large amount of space...and i didnt think Telamaque was that slow...i think Ray Ray is even faster than him....

i knew ray ray couldnt cover much....but i knew he had ball skills...hes just a bit stiff in the hips...and may have been tentative in the new d....Next yr i expect improvement from both.