Lu, ? re/safety position

sfcane2

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Lu

I see that you're not too high on our safeties, justifiably. What do you think are the traits that a good safety needs and do you see anyone on the horizon who is at least passable? I'm curious because if you look at the NFl, I seem to see a lot of guys with mediocre speed playing the position. Can Dallas Crawford play the position?
 

LuCane

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Lu

I see that you're not too high on our safeties, justifiably. What do you think are the traits that a good safety needs and do you see anyone on the horizon who is at least passable? I'm curious because if you look at the NFl, I seem to see a lot of guys with mediocre speed playing the position. Can Dallas Crawford play the position?
The answer depends on the scheme. I'll give you the traits I would look for in my scheme (predominantly zone, aggressive, blitzing):

I'd break this up into "Strong" and "Free" safeties, but Safeties are becoming more and more interchangeable and, because of the rules, the need is for better coverage flexibility.

(1) Great feet - Short area burst and balance would be atop the list
(2) Brain/Instinct - The ability to quickly process information is probably one of the most important attributes in the ideal Safety.
(3) Mentality - Some players are either aggressive and willing to lay it out there or they're not.
(4) Wingspan/Size - It makes a difference. There's no other way around it.

What you see in the NFL are guys who "seem" mediocre athletically, but can process information very quickly and are flexible enough to play in space. The game is moving at 500MPH and, for anyone who has been on that side of the ball at ANY level, it seems to move faster the farther you are away from the ball. If you're on the line, you're slanting or firing, etc. If you're at LB, you're shooting a gap or flowing with the ball, etc. If you're 12-15 yards away and your first step is taught to be backward, the play moves really quickly.

I don't know enough about Dallas Crawford's intangibles and don't have enough evidence on the field to really tell you. I can tell you that most of you knew I was a huge fan of JoJo Nicolas when he came out of HS. He had a lot of physical gifts I'd seek in a Safety. What has held him back from being an All-Conference football player is his ability to react quick enough. It's what separates a very good athlete like Ed Reed into a HOF. It's what gives Jim Leonhard the ability to play 7 seasons in the NFL (and counting) at 5' 8" 190.
 

hawaiicane

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Crawford was amazingly productive as a HS athlete. My main concern with him is that he lacks ideal size and ideal speed. He's only about 5'9 and runs a 4.7ish 40. We have to see how that translates to football speed but i wonder if he has the range to play centerfield and track down deep balls. Then as a CB prospect, you wonder if he can cover WRs one on one. Maybe he works best as a zone CB? At least he is not frail. He came in at 197, although some of that was bad weight. If he has managed to slim down to 185 and then is able to put back 10-15 lbs of muscle, he will have adequate size to play safety for us and plenty of size to play CB.
 

Chicken_N_Roffles

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Crawford was amazingly productive as a HS athlete. My main concern with him is that he lacks ideal size and ideal speed. He's only about 5'9 and runs a 4.7ish 40. We have to see how that translates to football speed but i wonder if he has the range to play centerfield and track down deep balls. Then as a CB prospect, you wonder if he can cover WRs one on one. Maybe he works best as a zone CB? At least he is not frail. He came in at 197, although some of that was bad weight. If he has managed to slim down to 185 and then is able to put back 10-15 lbs of muscle, he will have adequate size to play safety for us and plenty of size to play CB.

Where do you see that at?
 

hawaiicane

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Crawford was amazingly productive as a HS athlete. My main concern with him is that he lacks ideal size and ideal speed. He's only about 5'9 and runs a 4.7ish 40. We have to see how that translates to football speed but i wonder if he has the range to play centerfield and track down deep balls. Then as a CB prospect, you wonder if he can cover WRs one on one. Maybe he works best as a zone CB? At least he is not frail. He came in at 197, although some of that was bad weight. If he has managed to slim down to 185 and then is able to put back 10-15 lbs of muscle, he will have adequate size to play safety for us and plenty of size to play CB.

Where do you see that at?

I'm pretty sure that was reported from one of the camps/combines. I also remember a 4.6ish time but i am being conservative by taking the slower number. I'm glad we took him. He's the kind of 3 star FL kid, much like Finnie, Hilton, Bivins from this year, Hosely, Allen, etc, that gets overlooked by our previous staff and then end up killing it elsewhere.
 

Chicken_N_Roffles

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Pretty sure that 4.7 time has only come from El Padrino, who claims that he runs that because he saw him play once and that's how fast he looked. The guy is maybe only slightly less retarded than dannyboy. Not saying he's fast, but that time is bullshit.
 

umhurricane2511

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Lu

I see that you're not too high on our safeties, justifiably. What do you think are the traits that a good safety needs and do you see anyone on the horizon who is at least passable? I'm curious because if you look at the NFl, I seem to see a lot of guys with mediocre speed playing the position. Can Dallas Crawford play the position?
The answer depends on the scheme. I'll give you the traits I would look for in my scheme (predominantly zone, aggressive, blitzing):

I'd break this up into "Strong" and "Free" safeties, but Safeties are becoming more and more interchangeable and, because of the rules, the need is for better coverage flexibility.

(1) Great feet - Short area burst and balance would be atop the list
(2) Brain/Instinct - The ability to quickly process information is probably one of the most important attributes in the ideal Safety.
(3) Mentality - Some players are either aggressive and willing to lay it out there or they're not.
(4) Wingspan/Size - It makes a difference. There's no other way around it.
What you see in the NFL are guys who "seem" mediocre athletically, but can process information very quickly and are flexible enough to play in space. The game is moving at 500MPH and, for anyone who has been on that side of the ball at ANY level, it seems to move faster the farther you are away from the ball. If you're on the line, you're slanting or firing, etc. If you're at LB, you're shooting a gap or flowing with the ball, etc. If you're 12-15 yards away and your first step is taught to be backward, the play moves really quickly.

I don't know enough about Dallas Crawford's intangibles and don't have enough evidence on the field to really tell you. I can tell you that most of you knew I was a huge fan of JoJo Nicolas when he came out of HS. He had a lot of physical gifts I'd seek in a Safety. What has held him back from being an All-Conference football player is his ability to react quick enough. It's what separates a very good athlete like Ed Reed into a HOF. It's what gives Jim Leonhard the ability to play 7 seasons in the NFL (and counting) at 5' 8" 190.


So basically Sean Taylor?
 

3FW

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The coaches were very high on Thurston Armbrister. He would seem to have the ideal size and athleticism. Spring ball should tell us a lot.
 

DiegoCane

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Golden has singled out Crawford on more then one occasion as being one of the best scout team players this year. He also named Ryan Williams on offense.
 

LuCane

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Lu

I see that you're not too high on our safeties, justifiably. What do you think are the traits that a good safety needs and do you see anyone on the horizon who is at least passable? I'm curious because if you look at the NFl, I seem to see a lot of guys with mediocre speed playing the position. Can Dallas Crawford play the position?
The answer depends on the scheme. I'll give you the traits I would look for in my scheme (predominantly zone, aggressive, blitzing):

I'd break this up into "Strong" and "Free" safeties, but Safeties are becoming more and more interchangeable and, because of the rules, the need is for better coverage flexibility.

(1) Great feet - Short area burst and balance would be atop the list
(2) Brain/Instinct - The ability to quickly process information is probably one of the most important attributes in the ideal Safety.
(3) Mentality - Some players are either aggressive and willing to lay it out there or they're not.
(4) Wingspan/Size - It makes a difference. There's no other way around it.
What you see in the NFL are guys who "seem" mediocre athletically, but can process information very quickly and are flexible enough to play in space. The game is moving at 500MPH and, for anyone who has been on that side of the ball at ANY level, it seems to move faster the farther you are away from the ball. If you're on the line, you're slanting or firing, etc. If you're at LB, you're shooting a gap or flowing with the ball, etc. If you're 12-15 yards away and your first step is taught to be backward, the play moves really quickly.

I don't know enough about Dallas Crawford's intangibles and don't have enough evidence on the field to really tell you. I can tell you that most of you knew I was a huge fan of JoJo Nicolas when he came out of HS. He had a lot of physical gifts I'd seek in a Safety. What has held him back from being an All-Conference football player is his ability to react quick enough. It's what separates a very good athlete like Ed Reed into a HOF. It's what gives Jim Leonhard the ability to play 7 seasons in the NFL (and counting) at 5' 8" 190.


So basically Sean Taylor?
Size is the least of my top attributes. Brain is #2 (SeanTay had great instinct, but his freakishness wasn't in his understanding, ala Ed Reed). So, basically you should read with better comprehension?

If you want my "perfect Safety" for today's game, it'd be closer to Ed Reed than Sean Taylor. It'd probably be whatever Rod Woodson would have been if he played FS his entire career.
 

Ethnicsands

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I'll weigh in with take Taylor every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Great instincts + great athletic abilities.

Reed may have unique understanding, but he's one of a kind. You can't go find that. It's incredibly rare.

But 98% of football is instincts, skills and athletic ability, and Taylor had them in spades. And you can find kids with great athletic ability and who make plays and look to have the potential for great instincts. Getting them to sign with us is another matter, unfortunately.
 

LuCane

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I'll weigh in with take Taylor every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Great instincts + great athletic abilities.

Reed may have unique understanding, but he's one of a kind. You can't go find that. It's incredibly rare.

But 98% of football is instincts, skills and athletic ability, and Taylor had them in spades. And you can find kids with great athletic ability and who make plays and look to have the potential for great instincts. Getting them to sign with us is another matter, unfortunately.
I was asked my choice. I'd obviously recruit Sean Taylor or anyone like him, lol. Especially since he literally jumped over members of my HS football team. Literally.

Sean Taylor could have realistically played Corner in a pinch. He could have realistically played LB in a pinch. That's just weird.
 

AlexCane

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I'll weigh in with take Taylor every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Great instincts + great athletic abilities.

Reed may have unique understanding, but he's one of a kind. You can't go find that. It's incredibly rare.

But 98% of football is instincts, skills and athletic ability, and Taylor had them in spades. And you can find kids with great athletic ability and who make plays and look to have the potential for great instincts. Getting them to sign with us is another matter, unfortunately.
I was asked my choice. I'd obviously recruit Sean Taylor or anyone like him, lol. Especially since he literally jumped over members of my HS football team. Literally.

Sean Taylor could have realistically played Corner in a pinch. He could have realistically played LB in a pinch. That's just weird.
One of my favorite Sean Tay stories is that allegedly, while NFL scouts were down here scouting, they happened to be in the weight room and pointed at Sean and asked, "What position does he play, linebacker?"
 

Ethnicsands

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I'll weigh in with take Taylor every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Great instincts + great athletic abilities.

Reed may have unique understanding, but he's one of a kind. You can't go find that. It's incredibly rare.

But 98% of football is instincts, skills and athletic ability, and Taylor had them in spades. And you can find kids with great athletic ability and who make plays and look to have the potential for great instincts. Getting them to sign with us is another matter, unfortunately.
I was asked my choice. I'd obviously recruit Sean Taylor or anyone like him, lol. Especially since he literally jumped over members of my HS football team. Literally.

Sean Taylor could have realistically played Corner in a pinch. He could have realistically played LB in a pinch. That's just weird.
Taylor was a freak athlete, no doubt. Maybe the best I've ever seen on a football field. Certainly one of the few best.

But my point wasn't between ST and ER, more that the Taylor model (athlete + instincts) is a lot easier to identify and recruit than the Reed model (Jedi understanding). I expect I'll see another ST level athlete at S before I see another Reed-level Obi Wan.
 

Joecane

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I'll weigh in with take Taylor every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Great instincts + great athletic abilities.

Reed may have unique understanding, but he's one of a kind. You can't go find that. It's incredibly rare.

But 98% of football is instincts, skills and athletic ability, and Taylor had them in spades. And you can find kids with great athletic ability and who make plays and look to have the potential for great instincts. Getting them to sign with us is another matter, unfortunately.
I was asked my choice. I'd obviously recruit Sean Taylor or anyone like him, lol. Especially since he literally jumped over members of my HS football team. Literally.

Sean Taylor could have realistically played Corner in a pinch. He could have realistically played LB in a pinch. That's just weird.
Taylor was a freak athlete, no doubt. Maybe the best I've ever seen on a football field. Certainly one of the few best.

But my point wasn't between ST and ER, more that the Taylor model (athlete + instincts) is a lot easier to identify and recruit than the Reed model (Jedi understanding). I expect I'll see another ST level athlete at S before I see another Reed-level Obi Wan.
Jedi? Sands saying it's easier to find a Darth Vader than it is to find Yoda.
 

LuCane

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I'll weigh in with take Taylor every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Great instincts + great athletic abilities.

Reed may have unique understanding, but he's one of a kind. You can't go find that. It's incredibly rare.

But 98% of football is instincts, skills and athletic ability, and Taylor had them in spades. And you can find kids with great athletic ability and who make plays and look to have the potential for great instincts. Getting them to sign with us is another matter, unfortunately.
I was asked my choice. I'd obviously recruit Sean Taylor or anyone like him, lol. Especially since he literally jumped over members of my HS football team. Literally.

Sean Taylor could have realistically played Corner in a pinch. He could have realistically played LB in a pinch. That's just weird.
Taylor was a freak athlete, no doubt. Maybe the best I've ever seen on a football field. Certainly one of the few best.

But my point wasn't between ST and ER, more that the Taylor model (athlete + instincts) is a lot easier to identify and recruit than the Reed model (Jedi understanding). I expect I'll see another ST level athlete at S before I see another Reed-level Obi Wan.
Interesting point. It may be easier to identify, but from what I've seen, even versions of a Jedi understanding are sought after these days - especially in the NFL.
 

Ethnicsands

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I'll weigh in with take Taylor every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Great instincts + great athletic abilities.

Reed may have unique understanding, but he's one of a kind. You can't go find that. It's incredibly rare.

But 98% of football is instincts, skills and athletic ability, and Taylor had them in spades. And you can find kids with great athletic ability and who make plays and look to have the potential for great instincts. Getting them to sign with us is another matter, unfortunately.
I was asked my choice. I'd obviously recruit Sean Taylor or anyone like him, lol. Especially since he literally jumped over members of my HS football team. Literally.

Sean Taylor could have realistically played Corner in a pinch. He could have realistically played LB in a pinch. That's just weird.
Taylor was a freak athlete, no doubt. Maybe the best I've ever seen on a football field. Certainly one of the few best.

But my point wasn't between ST and ER, more that the Taylor model (athlete + instincts) is a lot easier to identify and recruit than the Reed model (Jedi understanding). I expect I'll see another ST level athlete at S before I see another Reed-level Obi Wan.
Interesting point. It may be easier to identify, but from what I've seen, even versions of a Jedi understanding are sought after these days - especially in the NFL.
I'm specifically speaking of college recruiting (i.e., HS targets). The NFL is a different topic. I don't know if they'll find more Ed Reeds, but as the game gets more complex, they may put more emphasis on that skill set. I still think when you put yourself in the shoes of a college coach, however, you would do better to focus on the ST mix. Partly because there are more of them out there, so your target set is bigger; partly because it's easier to identify, IMO, so your error rate should be lower (and worst case, you still found a great athlete); and partly because the college game isn't as complex as the NFL game, so the relative benefit of the two skill-sets we're discussing tilts more towards the ST mix than the ER one. JMO.
 

Canes525

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Sean Taylor as is gifted as anyone I have ever seen play fball. He was Ed Reed/Rod Woodson and Ronnie Lott all rolled into one. I still marvel at the rain 03 FSU game.
 

BigCaneAl

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I'll weigh in with take Taylor every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Great instincts + great athletic abilities.

Reed may have unique understanding, but he's one of a kind. You can't go find that. It's incredibly rare.

But 98% of football is instincts, skills and athletic ability, and Taylor had them in spades. And you can find kids with great athletic ability and who make plays and look to have the potential for great instincts. Getting them to sign with us is another matter, unfortunately.
I was asked my choice. I'd obviously recruit Sean Taylor or anyone like him, lol. Especially since he literally jumped over members of my HS football team. Literally.

Sean Taylor could have realistically played Corner in a pinch. He could have realistically played LB in a pinch. That's just weird.
I was at that game and remember thinking he was the single greatest athlete I have ever seen in person. I wasnt even mad he was torching my old team. It was like watching a camp counselor playing with 7 year olds. Then I ran into him in person at the grove a couple years later and could not believe how big they guy was....just a once a generation athlete. Sad we didn't get to see that career play out..ultimately I think he would have ended up in the conversation with Reed and Lott.

As far as attributes go, it may be easier to identify the physical skills, but good luck finding that freakish level of athleticism. We had Reed with off the charts understanding and reflexes and then just a freak athlete with good instincts in Taylor. Two different paths leading to the same outcome. I guess if you could combine the two somehow it would be truly scary.
 
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