Josh Pate on rankings bias

They've already admitted to doing it. ****, Rivals had ex employees openly admitting that the Bama bump is real.

Pate actually said in this video that he gets messages, specifically from Miami fans, with lists of players who dropped in rankings after committing, but that its not true. Uh huh..

He seems to forget that he also did a segment after Jayden Wayne committed and immediately dropped in their ranking, and how fishy it looked.

There's always an excuse when it happens to the peasant programs. But no mention of it EVER happening to OSU, Bama or UGA. Why? Because it never happens to them. THAT'S what's so sketch about it.

Pate actually says the quite part out loud. Maybe Saban was ahead of blah blah blah when it comes to identifying talent. Or maybe recruiting services are giving Saban the benefit of the doubt and over ranking his recruits (the Bama bump), which is EXACTLY what everyone is complaining about.
 
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They've already admitted to doing it. ****, Rivals had ex employees openly admitting that the Bama bump is real.

Pate actually said in this video that he gets messages, specifically from Miami fans, with lists of players who dropped in rankings after committing, but that its not true. Uh huh..

He seems to forget that he also did a segment after Jayden Wayne committed and immediately dropped in their ranking, and how fishy it looked.

There's always an excuse when it happens to the peasant programs. But no mention of it EVER happening to OSU, Bama or UGA. Why? Because it never happens to them. THAT'S what's so sketch about it.

Pate actually says the quite part out loud. Maybe Saban was ahead of blah blah blah when it comes to identifying talent. Or maybe recruiting services are giving Saban the benefit of the doubt and over ranking his recruits (the Bama bump), which is EXACTLY what everyone is complaining about.
Kevin Patrick said position coaches bribe the rankings guys for bumps as well. Which is worth it because it pays off for them financially. It’s an investment. We’ve also seen schools doing dirty stuff to get their guys higher rankings. That one was widely reported.
 

Rankings change cause of eyes on the player it's that simple.

"Rankings change cause of eyes on the player it's that simple."

I've been saying that on here for years: because Miami/Dade talent once won National Titles for the Canes, the staff stuck their eyes on that model while failing to see with those same eyes that the Big Dogs (who got the best from their areas because they were winning) swung it and dominated recruiting in the Canes backyard.

It wasn't only the players who felt entitled to swagger they didn't earn; Coaches got lazy. Stay home and put your eyes on Miami/Dade Friday nights (go sleep in your own bed) rather than drive across the Alley to SW FL, head up to Central/North Florida, the Panhandle, etc., where athletes also play but fewer eyes have seen. The rest of the state jokes that if you're a Miami/Dade player, you get at least a star for geographic location.

I've watched decades of SW Florida football and heard of very few instances when a Miami recruiter came through, once when we had the top running back in the nation and the Sporting News high school athlete of the year. We've sent kids to the SEC, Big 10, other ACC schools, FBS, Sunbelt, etc. This same school produced a pair of 2-3 star athletes who both went to FIU (one had the interception that started their upset in 2019). Both have made it to the NFL. One has been with the Panthers since 2020, and the other was with the Colts last year.
 
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The vast majority of us that have real jobs don’t have the time to watch film or attend camps to see every D1 prospect in the country so our only recourse is to rely on the recruiting services to do all the leg work.

There’s several biases in play here. The individual recruiting service employee is a football fan and probably loyal to a particular school. Established coaches like Sabag will get a bump because of the success he’s had. And the reverse is true for coaches that haven’t been as successful. Competition among services to be first and right creates expedited evals and misses in some under the radar kids.

The “system” is far from perfect but what other choice/s do we have?
 
At the end of the day whether you think they’re biased or not, the data shows stars matter long-term for winning, NFL draft picks, and collegiate championships.

So in essence, they’re right more often than they’re not. That’s not me, that’s the cold hard data.

Now I will say there’s a fine line between being a Gator cuck with star obsession, and realistically / objectively looking at ratings or evaluations.
 
As soon as something gets this prevalent, the quality goes down. They have people who really have no idea rating people high solely because other people think highly of them. Look no further than Arch Manning for evidence.
That's going to happen. Even in the draft there are guys that shouldn't go round 1 yearly and they go.
 
To say there’s no bias in rankings is actually saying the earth is flat or you’re wearing a tin foil hats. There’s bias is **** near everything in life. Getting offers or committing to schools like Bama , UGA , OSU and some others instantly changes how you‘re perceived by recruiting sites.
It happens I just don't think a player gets dropped or rises just out of where he is going. I think let's say if a guy is good but only bama sees him,and everyone finds out they are doing everything possible to get him. Is it ok for the service to see this and bump him up after the bama pressure and camp numbers? Cause to me favoritism or not it's about is the eval true. Who cares if they get a bump or if bama pushed the bump. Is it right is what matters. I'm more concerned when a prospect keeps dropping while we have them as a verbal in the past.
 
At the end of the day whether you think they’re biased or not, the data shows stars matter long-term for winning, NFL draft picks, and collegiate championships.

So in essence, they’re right more often than they’re not. That’s not me, that’s the cold hard data.

Now I will say there’s a fine line between being a Gator cuck with star obsession, and realistically / objectively looking at ratings or evaluations.


Macro...yes.

Micro...we can still debate WHICH 3-stars and WHICH 4-stars are worth taking.

Overall, we need to tip more heavily towards 4-star talent than anything. And in that regard, I tend to trust coaches saying "this guy is a 4-star TALENT" rather than sites saying "this guy is a 4-star RECRUIT".

Obviously, the best situation is to get convergence between what the coaches see and what the sites see. A lot of coaching jobs are dependent on scouting, identifying, and differentiating between Player Ranking #35 and Player Ranking #935. There are a lot of overrated and underrated players in that range, and I feel that coaches are FAR more motivated to ferret out those errant ratings than the websites are.
 
They've already admitted to doing it. ****, Rivals had ex employees openly admitting that the Bama bump is real.

Pate actually said in this video that he gets messages, specifically from Miami fans, with lists of players who dropped in rankings after committing, but that its not true. Uh huh..

He seems to forget that he also did a segment after Jayden Wayne committed and immediately dropped in their ranking, and how fishy it looked.

There's always an excuse when it happens to the peasant programs. But no mention of it EVER happening to OSU, Bama or UGA. Why? Because it never happens to them. THAT'S what's so sketch about it.

Pate actually says the quite part out loud. Maybe Saban was ahead of blah blah blah when it comes to identifying talent. Or maybe recruiting services are giving Saban the benefit of the doubt and over ranking his recruits (the Bama bump), which is EXACTLY what everyone is complaining about.
Perhaps one variable they consider is development. If the kid goes to a premiere program they will most likely get developed and maximize their potential.

This has been our biggest problem over the last 20 years, we have not developed the kids we've had. At least not nearly as well as the premiere programs have. I would estimate 80% of the games we have played in the ACC our roster has been better than our opponent (based on recruiting ratings). Yet we continue to lose to teams who have less talent (again, based on recruiting ratings.
 
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Kevin Patrick said position coaches bribe the rankings guys for bumps as well. Which is worth it because it pays off for them financially. It’s an investment. We’ve also seen schools doing dirty stuff to get their guys higher rankings. That one was widely reported.
I have seen and heard coaches talking to recruiting guys about improving a players ranking.

They give reporters access for rankings. Also there are some coaches that get a bonus based on rankings.

Most have “reporters” work for schools instead of against them
 
They've already admitted to doing it. ****, Rivals had ex employees openly admitting that the Bama bump is real.

Pate actually said in this video that he gets messages, specifically from Miami fans, with lists of players who dropped in rankings after committing, but that its not true. Uh huh..

He seems to forget that he also did a segment after Jayden Wayne committed and immediately dropped in their ranking, and how fishy it looked.
This is what Mario and Zo are trying to do. Get ahead of the curve and the sites.
There's always an excuse when it happens to the peasant programs. But no mention of it EVER happening to OSU, Bama or UGA. Why? Because it never happens to them. THAT'S what's so sketch about it.

Pate actually says the quite part out loud. Maybe Saban was ahead of blah blah blah when it comes to identifying talent. Or maybe recruiting services are giving Saban the benefit of the doubt and over ranking his recruits (the Bama bump), which is EXACTLY what everyone is complaining about.
 
step brothers dale GIF


So .. .. .. all true - but UM is the exception.
 
I am very critical of the ratings/rankings services. And it is not all based on the bias factor, though that is one part of it. I don't think that I've ever argued that the players targeted by Alabama or Georgia or any other school that has a GREAT scouting department are "wrong". But there are some other things at work too:

1. Too many services, not enough good internet journalist-analysts. Now that you have Rivals and 247 and on3, plus a bit of ESPN and SI in the mix too, you are seeing situations where the "independent" analysis is flawed, defective, or negligent. Even guys that cover the Elite 11 can give very divergent opinions, and that's just 20 kids to watch. So to think that, what, a few hundred writers can cover thousands and thousands of football games, camps, 7-on-7s, and every other event where these recruits showcase their abilities is just nuts. So if the ratings and rankings are not coming from independent observations...

2. Overreliance on what college coaches tell the internet journalist-analysts. Now, to the extent that the Alabama and Georgia writers are getting info from a solid bunch of coaches, you can have reliable information and ratings. But what about the writers who cover Manny Diaz at Miami? I would have no problems if, in an ideal world, these writers had multiple data points that included BOTH their own observations and the commentary of the college coaches. But that is very rare, so you have a doubling effect where the opinions of coaches outweigh everything else. And we've seen a lot of coaches give false information about who they like and don't like...and then...

3. Inaccurate assessments by certain coaches can distort things. All these national services try to be "national" and not just save all the 5-star and 4-star ratings for kids in the southeast. So if some of the writers cover certain colleges NOT named Alabama/Georgia, and those coaching staffs are pursuing players that are NOT as good (either because of poor evaluations or "we can probably sign this kid", then you can get a distorted picture of "who the coaches think the best players are". All we have to do is go over to Gaytor Tears to see how THREE different coaching staffs have chased borderline 4-stars in order to raise their "class rankings".

4. The Gaytor Bumpz is out there too. And if our fanbase was bigger and prone to giving Wiltfong more ****, we would see more fanbases who insist, because of their past championships (and sizable subscriber numbers), that the services automatically upgrade all their 3-star recruits.

5. Hesitance by the services to make big changes or late changes to the rankings is problematic, combined with the rise of December signing day and the shifts in the overall recruiting calendar. A few years ago, Texas used to LOCK UP nearly its entire recruiting class a year in advance. And then they would find out that those players may have "peaked early" and that there were a lot of kids who were late-bloomers, but it was too late.



None of those factors is the "only reason", but they all play a part in the overall picture. So what you have is a relatively accurate assessment for the Top 5 or 10 schools, and then a bunch of other schools scrambling to make their classes look as good as possible, by taking the highest rated players they can. And that's where evaluations come into play and make all the difference. There are only 450 blue-chip recruits each year, and 65 P5 schools. That's 7 "difference makers" per school on average, but we all know that some schools get more and some get less.

I rarely argue on 5-stars. Very few are "really" 3-stars.

But there's a lot of imprecision in the 3-star vs. 4-star world.
I remember that out here in Austin. Mack Brown would have next year's signing class virtually locked up each April. They would have their big Junior Day event and everyone would commit. Work was then done.
 
I say stop worrying about ranking bias and Get the better players. Win more games. Get more better players. Win more games…

I’m not mining for gold or blood diamonds in the rough, so I like this plan…
 
He shouldn’t have been ranked that high but anyone that thinks he’s not a top shelf recruit is just hating. He has game and talent. He shouldn’t be the top ranked qb in the class or one of the best ever but that’s where bias comes in. Is he overrated? Yeah , a tad bit. Are there a bunch of haters because of his last name ? You better believe it.
Feel like that's honestly the only reason why he gets so much hate. If he was ranked as like a mid to high 4 star with like a .95 or .96 rating, I think a lot of people would be more on board.
 
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The rankings bias is real and has been admitted to many times over in plenty of avenues. Saying it doesn't exist and its something else like "there are more eyes on the player derp derp" is being a weirdo. Too many on the record acknowledgments of it. The USC story on The Athletic from a few years ago outlined how those position coaches would talk the rivals/247/on3/whatever into changing a players star rating and ranking because they wouldn't be able to recruit said player unless they were a 4-star, ranked in the Top X. Former staffers have posted/tweeted about it now for years. This is not new news, a hot take, or a conspiracy theory...its pretty obvious.

Do these companies even put up the facade that their evaluations are their own and not a result of who offered and accepted their commitment?
 
Archie Manning was the most uncontested 5-star I've ever seen and not for good reason. Name, hype, but actual talent? Nope. Didn't attend camps, didn't play elite competition, didn't demonstrate unreal ability that made people go "Good ******* lord".

I've finished with recruiting sites afterwards. They're not worth the time.

Follow the vists and the offers. Thats how you know.
 
I say stop worrying about ranking bias and Get the better players. Win more games. Get more better players. Win more games…

I’m not mining for gold or blood diamonds in the rough, so I like this plan…


Yep. Completely agree.

I'm not denying the bias. I'm just saying that we need to work around it.
 
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