Issiah Walker

[FreePawn]

15.5.6.3.2 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering After Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A
student-athlete recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters after the first term of the academic year and immediately receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) shall be an initial counter for either the current academic year (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or the next academic year. The student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

Last sentence basically is a count forward. This is why you can’t just live by a single bylaw. There’s thousands of them.

The bolded would mean we're talking about someone who comes in in January, no? Wouldn't help with getting Walker here this season.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

They already determined he was redshirting with his brief time there in spring and no summer weight training? If thats the case, he must have struggled

Impossible, they have to spend the first few days of practice without pads.

I would put money on the fact that UF lied to him about the prospect of immediate playing time.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

The bolded would mean we're talking about someone who comes in in January, no? Wouldn't help with getting Walker here this season.

Correct.

January kids count against the 85 "total counter" limit, but can go on the current year (already in progress) or the upcoming year when it comes to the 25 "initial counter" limit.

 

[RVACane]

Impossible, they have to spend the first few days of practice without pads.

I would put money on the fact that UF lied to him about the prospect of immediate playing time.

Probably told him he’d be able to compete for a starting spot and then tried to redshirt him.

 

[FreePawn]

yes. that's my understanding too 1 day after the start of fall classes...


that's why they can enroll ONE DAY after the fall semester begins...

ANd I now understand why there is an ENTIRE DEPARTMENT that stays on top of these rules, etc

Ummm....no. "After fall term" means after the fall term. What you are saying would be after the start of fall term. Bit of wishful thinking going on here in your reading of the bylaw.

I think OCF has more than comprehensively explained that our only hope of getting both Walker and Williams in this fall is if we got an IC back from Asa leaving.

 

[bmorecane]

Probably told him he’d be able to compete for a starting spot and then tried to redshirt him.

If they lied or misrepresented the situation to the kid, then this process holds them accountable and I’m all for it. There is this line of thinking that Miami shouldn’t take kids that spurn them, that they shouldn’t even continue to pursue kids that have decommitted, but this would be an example of why you do it. Kids are fed lies during recruiting and once they sign on the dotted line, things change. If that’s at play here then glad the kid still has confidence in the Miami staff to want to transfer here.

 

[FreePawn]

There is this line of thinking that Miami shouldn’t take kids that spurn them,

This would be all fine and dandy if we were losing the odd local kid here and there. But if you're getting spurned by almost all of them anyway, well one should think about getting off that high horse.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Probably told him he’d be able to compete for a starting spot and then tried to redshirt him.

This is the Gaytors' playbook.

During recruiting, Gaytor coaches tell the kid "you'll be competing for a starting spot as a pure freshman."

After enrollment, Gaytor coaches tell the kid "you'll take a redshirt."

Kid decides to transfer.

Gaytor posters go to Gaytor boards to invent the myth of "kid was afraid to compete."

Lather-rinse-repeat. Happens every year.

 

[grover]

And we’re sure this covers both direct recruits and transfers? Because transfers have a whole set of rules to go along with the basic recruit rules. And NCAA bylaws are too plentiful to just assume this is the only doc on it.

I didn't see any exceptions to ICs related to graduate transfers. But I'm not an expert on NCAA bylaws, so anyone interested in digging further is welcome to. Here's the link to the manual: https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/reports/getReport/90008 . The FBS initial counter section is 15.5.6. The LOI and Financial aid section 13.9.3. The Graduate Student section is 14.6.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

I didn't see any exceptions to ICs related to graduate transfers. But I'm not an expert on NCAA bylaws, so anyone interested in digging further is welcome to. Here's the link to the manual: https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/reports/getReport/90008 . The FBS initial counter section is 15.5.6. The LOI and Financial aid section 13.9.3. The Graduate Student section is 14.6.

Grad transfers count as ICs.

The issue is "first time you get financial aid", not what academic level you are at.

Everyone counts, with the exception of 1-year walk-ons who are later awarded scholarships.

 

[grover]

Regarding Asa Martin, there are a couple bylaws that provide counter exceptions for voluntary withdrawals. But they notably lack any specific relief for "initial counters". So, as best I can tell, Miami would need to request and receive a waiver from the NCAA. And if they haven't received it by now, there's no way they're going to receive it, IMHO.

15.5.6.4 Exceptions. [FBS/FCS] 15.5.6.4.1 Preseason Voluntary Withdrawal. [FBS/FCS] An institution may replace a counter who voluntarily withdraws from the football team by providing the financial aid to another student who already has enrolled in the institution and is a member of the football squad. For this replacement to occur, the counter must withdraw prior to the first day of classes or the first game of the season, whichever is earlier, and provide the institution with a signed statement releasing the institution from its obligation to provide institutional financial aid and verifying the voluntary nature of the withdrawal. The institution may immediately (beginning with the fall term) award the financial aid to a student-athlete who has been a member of the team for at least one academic year and has not previously received athletically related financial aid. A student-athlete who has not been a member of the team for at least one academic year may not receive the financial aid during the fall term, but may receive it in an ensuing term (e.g., spring semester, winter quarter). (Revised: 4/28/05 effective 8/1/05)

15.5.6.4.2 Voluntary Withdrawal From the Institution During the Academic Year. [FBS/FCS] An institution may replace a counter who voluntarily withdraws (e.g., transfer, official religious mission) from the institution during the academic year by providing the financial aid to another student-athlete, including an incoming student-athlete, beginning with the ensuing term (e.g., spring semester, winter or spring quarter) without making the second student-athlete a counter for the remainder of that academic year. The departing student-athlete's aid may be canceled upon the institution's receipt of a signed statement from the student-athlete releasing the institution from its obligation to provide institutional financial aid and verifying the voluntary nature of the withdrawal. If such a statement is received, a hearing opportunity (per Bylaw 15.3.2.3) is not required. (Adopted: 4/25/18 effective 8/1/18)

 

[grover]

Grad transfers count as ICs.

The issue is "first time you get financial aid", not what academic level you are at.

Everyone counts, with the exception of 1-year walk-ons who are later awarded scholarships.

Thanks for clarifying. That's the conclusion I came to from reading the relevant bylaw sections, as well. Just wasn't 100% sure.

 

[TrueFloridian]

This is the Gaytors' playbook.

During recruiting, Gaytor coaches tell the kid "you'll be competing for a starting spot as a pure freshman."

After enrollment, Gaytor coaches tell the kid "you'll take a redshirt."

Kid decides to transfer.

Gaytor posters go to Gaytor boards to invent the myth of "kid was afraid to compete."

Lather-rinse-repeat. Happens every year.

They must be idiot coaches. The last thing I’d ever do is refuse to play ball with a PURE freshman. Well, considering it’s UF they maybe ugly AF. I heard the PURE ones complain about butt pain when Tebow visits.

 

[nuprin]

I don't think people understand what that means.

Oh, sure, I guess that means we could just enroll 25 transfers. Wrong.

There's no such thing as a "reset". You can simply give out 25 FIRST-TIME grants of financial aid that apply to a particular year. Now, I usually call this "enrollees", but the rule clearly talks about signees. Meaning, if we had SIGNED Moise, and then he didn't qualify, we don't just "get back" his IC slot because he fails to enroll, we LOSE his IC slot because he SIGNED a financial aid agreement or an LOI.

So here's how things work.

The very first year of the IC rules, you had 25 slots. And they applied to a particular year. Let's say the year was 2015-2016. That meant, you got 25 slots for that year. In the olden days, most of the kids would report in the fall, and some would report "early". But they all counted towards that year. Thus, in Year 1 (2015-2016 in my example), you could give 25 new financial aid awards, which could be given in Fall 2015, Summer 2015, or Spring 2015. You didn't get to "beat the rule" by enrolling 25 new kids in the spring and 25 new kids in the fall.

Once the rule was established, if you didn't give out 25 full scholarships in Year 1, you could use those IC slots the next year (countbacks). So for Year 2 (the 2016-2017 academic year), you could give out 25 new scholarships and whatever number remained unawarded from Year 1. And so on and so on and so on.

So for the 2020-2021 academic year, we have 25 slots (to be awarded in Fall 2020, Summer 2020, or Spring 2020, but it COULD ALSO include Spring 2021 or Summer 2021, assuming we don't give out all 25).

It was my understanding that we have used 24 slots and had no countbacks, thus ONE IC SLOT LEFT. Apparently, though, Ivins is saying we have one countback ALSO.

Look, the certification date is the Fall. When you submit your IC report to the fall, and let's say you have 26 names on the list, then you have to state that you have 25 that count towards the current year (2020-2021) and one that counts towards a prior year (2019-2020).

THAT'S NOT A COUNT FORWARD.

You only "count forward" if you are a Spring or Summer enrollee.

Thus, for our 2020-2021 year, when we certify and send the report, we will include (a) whoever enrolls for Fall 2020 and gets financial aid for the first time, (b) anyone who enrolled in Summer 2020 (if there even is a Summer 2020) and gets financial aid for the first time, (c) anyone who enrolled in Spring 2020 and got financial aid for the first time, (d) anyone we signed who did not qualify, and (e) anyone who got financial aid from Spring 2020 to Fall 2020 who we want to count back towards a prior year.

That's it.

No "count forwards" for Fall 2020. Only countbacks. Not sure how we got another countback, if it came from the mid-year replacement rule, or the Asa Martin appeal, or some other lie that Manny told.

But I'm not going to argue if we DO have a countback. I would love it if we do, and we can get both Walker and Williams.

But we don't have "count-forwards" for Fall 2020. That's not a real thing.

You are doing the lords work TOC...I'm not sure how many times you have to keep explaining this before everyone catches on, but bless your heart for continually trying.

 

[nuprin]

15.5.6.3.2 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering After Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A
student-athlete recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters after the first term of the academic year and immediately receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) shall be an initial counter for either the current academic year (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or the next academic year. The student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

Last sentence basically is a count forward. This is why you can’t just live by a single bylaw. There’s thousands of them.

You are correct, it's a count forward. But as TOC has stated ad-naseum...you can count forward ONLY after fall term, which is the exact title of that by law you posted. Essentially, all the EE's we had in January fall under this bylaw (unless any were used as a countback).

 

[grover]

So with only one IC left, who would people take -- Williams or Walker?* I am super-impressed by Walker's ceiling, think he has far more potential. But I personally would take Williams because he is plug & play with no personal drama, which means he gives us a far better chance to win more games in 2020.

*I'm assuming Moise goes to prep, since he apparently won't be cleared by the NCAA to play at any school.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

You are correct, it's a count forward. But as TOC has stated ad-naseum...you can count forward ONLY after fall term, which is the exact title of that by law you posted. Essentially, all the EE's we had in January fall under this bylaw (unless any were used as a countback).

Thanks for the kind words in the prior posting.

Honest to God, I'm not trying to be a **** about it. I wish that people would just read the rules and ask questions, instead of passing along incorrect information.

The NCAA doesn't help matters. It's the **** NCAA that uses the "count forward" language for Spring and Summer enrollees, when the actual truth is that these are "early enrollees" for the upcoming year.

Instead, some of these posters think we can count backwards AND forwards AND "present tense", which just isn't the case.

As a practical matter, there's just two choices. "Now" and "countbacks". Nobody who enrolls in Spring or Summer is playing until the Fall anyhow.

When I was PM'ing with Ivins and going over the wording of the rules, he had a funny comment, he asked me how he could explain this in a 90 second video. He's right. You can't.

One last way of thinking of this, for FOOTBALL only...the "measurement date" is in August...but the TRUE "reset date" is January. In January you can start to pivot and take guys for either the "present year" or the "upcoming year". In August, you are stuck with the "present year" or a "prior year".

Hope everyone has a great weekend, maybe we'll get some good news on one or both OLs. I hope we can get both, but I'm from Missouri, so Manny has to "show me".

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Thanks for the kind words in the prior posting.

Honest to God, I'm not trying to be a **** about it. I wish that people would just read the rules and ask questions, instead of passing along incorrect information.

The NCAA doesn't help matters. It's the **** NCAA that uses the "count forward" language for Spring and Summer enrollees, when the actual truth is that these are "early enrollees" for the upcoming year.

Instead, some of these posters think we can count backwards AND forwards AND "present tense", which just isn't the case.

As a practical matter, there's just two choices. "Now" and "countbacks". Nobody who enrolls in Spring or Summer is playing until the Fall anyhow.

When I was PM'ing with Ivins and going over the wording of the rules, he had a funny comment, he asked me how he could explain this in a 90 second video. He's right. You can't.

One last way of thinking of this, for FOOTBALL only...the "measurement date" is in August...but the TRUE "reset date" is January. In January you can start to pivot and take guys for either the "present year" or the "upcoming year". In August, you are stuck with the "present year" or a "prior year".

Hope everyone has a great weekend, maybe we'll get some good news on one or both OLs. I hope we can get both, but I'm from Missouri, so Manny has to "show me".

Have a couple brews...you deserve it.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

So with only one IC left, who would people take -- Williams or Walker?* I am super-impressed by Walker's ceiling, think he has far more potential. But I personally would take Williams because he is plug & play with no personal drama, which means he gives us a far better chance to win more games in 2020.

*I'm assuming Moise goes to prep, since he apparently won't be cleared by the NCAA to play at any school.

On the Moise issue, I would definitely like to get clarification on whether prep school helps you to avoid the "academic redshirt". Logically, this makes sense. If you had to struggle to qualify, and the NCAA wants you to sit out for a year of athletic competition, what difference should it make if you study at UM or you study at IMG Prep (though, I guess if I really think about it, some of these prep schools allow students to play sports).

So if Moise preps and doesn't play, would he be good-to-go for 2021? This is a new rule, I'm not really sure if we have an example of someone who has done this. Jobe?

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Have a couple brews...you deserve it.

"Deserve" might be a bit strong, but thank you.

Law school trains you in 2 important message board skills...reading things carefully, and arguing like a mo-fo. I apologize in advance for both.