How would a one-gap 4-3 defense fix our issues?

[Big Sky Cane]

I think there's a "misconception" about 1 gap defense and "allows us to get upfield". You don't just "shoot your gap and get up field". We'd still be engaging the O-linemen and controlling your gap the vast majority of the time.

The stance is totally different and although you're still expected to be physical and control your gap, you're allowed to put weight on your front hand and get off the ball. This allows us to create our own line of scrimmage.

True. I just think a lot of people are assuming if we play 1 gap, we shoot the gap and automatically will get penetration.

 

[77cane]

With today's uptempo spread offenses I believe a flexible 4-2-5 would play to our personnel. We could take a smaller but quicker linebacker like Grace and flex him between safety and the weak-side linebacker. This would be like the old rover . The flaw in today's read and react defense is the speed of offensive players. By the time you react to the play it is generally to late. We have to be like a pack of hungry dogs reacting to a fresh bone.

 

[DaU83]

I think the results would largely be the same, as far as giving up yards and points, it would just be a quicker death..

The scheme certainly works, we know they have implemented it and had success with it. It's a matter of whether we're willing to be patient so they can implement and get the right guys in there, or if we want to put a bandaid on the problem until we get those guys, but then be behind the curve in implementing the system. For the record, I think they're doing it the right way. You implement your system and build for the long term.

 

[LuCane]

With today's uptempo spread offenses I believe a flexible 4-2-5 would play to our personnel. We could take a smaller but quicker linebacker like Grace and flex him between safety and the weak-side linebacker. This would be like the old rover . The flaw in today's read and react defense is the speed of offensive players. By the time you react to the play it is generally to late. We have to be like a pack of hungry dogs reacting to a fresh bone.

This is basically what VTech does.

 

[theibisrules]

Well, we couldn't be any worse if we switched to a 4-3.

Our defense is ranked 116th in the country! We have the worst defense in the ACC for the SECOND YEAR IN A ROW.

It defies credulity!

Ranked 116th in what?

You name it...the list goes on

 

[Coach Macho]

Another thing to keep in mind...

Regardless of whether we run 4-3 or 3-4, alot of importance is placed on HOW we line up. Our leverage. Are we still gonna walk our LB's out over the slots and leave 5 or 6 defenders in the box? Are we still gonna line up with a 5-technique DE vs. TE with no OLB to hold the edge?

These things happen whether we use the 4-3 or the 3-4. The way we line-up in the back-7 is mind boggling at times.

 

[LuCane]

Another thing to keep in mind...

Regardless of whether we run 4-3 or 3-4, alot of importance is placed on HOW we line up. Our leverage. Are we still gonna walk our LB's out over the slots and leave 5 or 6 defenders in the box? Are we still gonna line up with a 5-technique DE vs. TE with no OLB to hold the edge?

These things happen whether we use the 4-3 or the 3-4. The way we line-up in the back-7 is mind boggling at times.

This is basically what I said earlier. Scheme or not, it's what we do with it. You can say our guys suck at pass rushing, but it's hard to tell because we ask them to play "contain." Maybe we ask them to play contain because they suck at pass rushing. Or, maybe we ask them to play contain because that's what the [UVA] playbook outlines. The argument (that has been made) that, if they were better at pass rushing, they wouldn't come out on 3rd downs is questionable, to me, because it ignores the fact that maybe those guys are in there to begin with because they're better at 2-gap contain (the primary objective).

To be clear, I'm not saying we have pass rush terrors being completely held back. I'm saying I'd be curious to see what Porter, Pierre and Robinson look like being asked to do something else.

 

[RaiseCane]

Another thing to keep in mind...

Regardless of whether we run 4-3 or 3-4, alot of importance is placed on HOW we line up. Our leverage. Are we still gonna walk our LB's out over the slots and leave 5 or 6 defenders in the box? Are we still gonna line up with a 5-technique DE vs. TE with no OLB to hold the edge?

These things happen whether we use the 4-3 or the 3-4. The way we line-up in the back-7 is mind boggling at times.

To me, one of the most frustrating things about our D is the alignment. There was an entire thread on how we line up our LBs so far behind our DL, even on the goal line and short yardage. It's hard to understand how it's possible for our LBs to ever make TFLs when they have to run an extra few yards just to get to the line of scrimmage.

It's also frustrating to see our LBs line up over slot receivers. I get that in some sets, our LBs will be lined up on guys in the slot. But, I don't get why we leave in a 3rd LB when teams go to 3 wide when our alignment is to have the LB line up over the WR. The advantage of not going to the nickel is to have the extra LB on the field for run support. If that LB is lined up out on a WR, we have the worst of both worlds - a LB covering a WR (even if it's in a zone) instead of a nickel CB and we're short guys in the box. Just doesn't make sense to me to get outnumbered in the box AND have worse coverage on the field. Does this kind of coverage ever work on a regular basis?

 

[dg151]

Well, we couldn't be any worse if we switched to a 4-3.

Our defense is ranked 116th in the country! We have the worst defense in the ACC for the SECOND YEAR IN A ROW.

It defies credulity!

Ranked 116th in what?

You name it...the list goes on

I actually can't find anything we're ranked 116th in or last in the ACC in in any defensive statistic so I'm very curious, maybe it's a metric I'm not familiar with.

 

[LuCane]

Well, we couldn't be any worse if we switched to a 4-3.

Our defense is ranked 116th in the country! We have the worst defense in the ACC for the SECOND YEAR IN A ROW.

It defies credulity!

Ranked 116th in what?

You name it...the list goes on

I actually can't find anything we're ranked 116th in or last in the ACC in in any defensive statistic so I'm very curious, maybe it's a metric I'm not familiar with.

We're 116th in getting lined up in time!

 

[Jax Cane]

Gaines,Highsmith,Rogers,Cornelius,Green,Robinson,Porter,Renfro, = Crap defense.

You guys can circle jerk this gap stuff all day long.

Combined with the brilliant scheme of 2 linebackers 6 yards deep in the end zone during a goal line stand = rectal examine

 

[weownfsu]

None of this is going to fix our issues because we can't get kids to play hard, we can't get them to play aggressive, and they quit on the coaches.

I would've disagreed until the Virginia Tech and Duke games.

It'll be interesting to see how they respond down the stretch. That could tell us a lot.

That's why I just don't think it has that much to do with scheme. Maybe if we started playing an "aggressive" scheme then our guys would become rabid wolves, but I doubt it. Instead they play soft. Some of that has to do with the scheme, sure, but I just get the idea that the "scheme" results from a certain mindset in how you play football. And that "mindset" will manifest itself in any scheme you play. I just think that their mindset makes them more liekly to play a read and react scheme, and they'll have no idea how to teach kids to play in an aggressive scheme.

We just aren't an aggressive, in your face football team as a whole. I doubt changing the defensive scheme will change that. And because of that, we'll keep getting our teeth kicked in by the good teams.

I'm hoping they respond well because going 10-3 with a bowl win will do a lot for recruiting and perception for next year.

 

[rkhill71]

Vegas Franklin, Eric moncur and Terez McCray

We had a dt who was 255 and a de who was 245 starting and stopping the run in 2007 and were good. If they played in this system they would get dominated just like we are today.. We need to move to a 4-3

3-4 and 4-3 aren't the issues. The big question Coach Golden will have to mull over is "are we asking our current and future DL to do something that doesn't maximize our talent?" The only part that scares me is that he will simply refuse to even consider the question. I keep telling myself he's shown evidence of being practical in other areas (specifically, roster management), so he'll do the same here.

LuCane I have been thinking the same way. Golden made some roster changers to help the team,I was under impression he would do the same regarding this anemic defense.

 

[gogeta4]

It wouldnt. Right now we dont have the personnel to be great playing any style of defense. More importantly, it might be more in line with what the fans are craving in this anti-donofrio phase but it can be mucked up just as badly as the current defense if not well-implemented. As a fact, the latter shannon/lovett defenses were MUCH more prone to the big play if one guy didnt do their job than this D. That's part of being aggressive. This defense is so soft that these mistakes get limited and we get nickel and dimed down the field which the fans hate. Nonetheless, if you install such a defense and guys dont understand, you are looking at gashes repeatedly. If we had that instead of this and fans had never seen this, the vitriol for the DC would be just as strong the complaints would be different.

I like that style of defense and it probably fits the Miami player mentality better but realistically defense is about implementation more than style IMO and Donofrio's willingness to overcomplicate everything could transition just as well to 43. I'm convinced that we have t even seen what he wants to do in terms of aggression but he may never get there because he can't install the basics. It's funny because he's the anti-Shannon but we all recall that so many disliked Shannon when he was around just letting the athletes turn it loose.

**** Pennmed u back at it??...not you ...my dude???

i never saw a Randy defense get "mucked up" or done as bad as we have the last 5 weeks. And if it was it was done by a legit guy like a Petrino etc.

Your sounding more an more like No fRio....putting it on personnel when its painfully obvious he is corch that cant get his scheme down in 3 years or doesnt understand his players strengths and weaknesses. ( Green in covg,line twist with 230 pd de's)

The crazy part about it is my main gripe about Randy was that he wasnt "aggressive"...Randy wasnt a blitz guy.....said it out his own mouth...but No Frio has made Randy's d look like it was ran by **** Lebeau.

He's similar to shannon in mindset...both guys are not overly aggressive with blitz schemes because of fear of the big play...but Randy seemed to implement his defense better...and we saw alot less mishaps in covg etc....Randy's lbs for years went straight to the nfl and picked up their defensive schemes faster than their counterparts..considering he supposedly ran a "simple" scheme...

 

[RaiseCane]

It wouldnt. Right now we dont have the personnel to be great playing any style of defense. More importantly, it might be more in line with what the fans are craving in this anti-donofrio phase but it can be mucked up just as badly as the current defense if not well-implemented. As a fact, the latter shannon/lovett defenses were MUCH more prone to the big play if one guy didnt do their job than this D. That's part of being aggressive. This defense is so soft that these mistakes get limited and we get nickel and dimed down the field which the fans hate. Nonetheless, if you install such a defense and guys dont understand, you are looking at gashes repeatedly. If we had that instead of this and fans had never seen this, the vitriol for the DC would be just as strong the complaints would be different.

I like that style of defense and it probably fits the Miami player mentality better but realistically defense is about implementation more than style IMO and Donofrio's willingness to overcomplicate everything could transition just as well to 43. I'm convinced that we have t even seen what he wants to do in terms of aggression but he may never get there because he can't install the basics. It's funny because he's the anti-Shannon but we all recall that so many disliked Shannon when he was around just letting the athletes turn it loose.

**** Pennmed u back at it??...not you ...my dude???

i never saw a Randy defense get "mucked up" or done as bad as we have the last 5 weeks. And if it was it was done by a legit guy like a Petrino etc.

Your sounding more an more like No fRio....putting it on personnel when its painfully obvious he is corch that cant get his scheme down in 3 years or doesnt understand his players strengths and weaknesses. ( Green in covg,line twist with 230 pd de's)

The crazy part about it is my main gripe about Randy was that he wasnt "aggressive"...Randy wasnt a blitz guy.....said it out his own mouth...but No Frio has made Randy's d look like it was ran by **** Lebeau.

He's similar to shannon in mindset...both guys are not overly aggressive with blitz schemes because of fear of the big play...but Randy seemed to implement his defense better...and we saw alot less mishaps in covg etc....Randy's lbs for years went straight to the nfl and picked up their defensive schemes faster than their counterparts..considering he supposedly ran a "simple" scheme...

See, to me, that's the biggest difference between what's happening now vs. what happened under Randy. Now, I'm not saying that we didn't have some epically bad defensive performances when Randy was HC - handwarmer game against GT and the closing out of the OB being two that I remember well. But, I sure don't remember getting gashed like this against bad teams on a consistent basis like we are now. It's one thing when UL under Petrino, or WVU under RichRod gashed us. But over the last two years, we've given up over 500 yards 8 times....8! And included in that 8 is the recent debacles against mediocre offenses like VT and Duke. We gave up more than 500 yards 6 times between '96 and '11 (thanks Tim Reynolds for the stats). I mean, that's just poor defense on a level that is hard to wrap your mind around.

 

[sebastian91]

i never saw a Randy defense get "mucked up" or done as bad as we have the last 5 weeks. And if it was it was done by a legit guy like a Petrino etc.

I think you're right for the most part, but *****, I remember a game against GT where they rushed for **** near 500 yards. Don't remember what year it was.

 

[gogeta4]

i never saw a Randy defense get "mucked up" or done as bad as we have the last 5 weeks. And if it was it was done by a legit guy like a Petrino etc.

I think you're right for the most part, but *****, I remember a game against GT where they rushed for **** near 500 yards. Don't remember what year it was.

and what did randy do to that gt offense the next yr>,?...

UNC and Duke has been eating No Frio's lunch 3 yrs running...and thats with bad offenses....i mean unc killed him 2 yrsd running with ONE player....Gio Bernard was Uncs entire offense and dude did nothing to scheme him...this yr it was pretty obvios their te was their ONLY threat...and dude was running wide open from sun life to deerfield beach....during the weeks regular message board posters are given the heads up on opposing players....(i love those threads by dmoney,danny) and guess what those same players eat our lunch...its like No Frio has noooo clue....i mean for godsakes wake's wr is responsible for like 85% of their offense and it was like we had NOOOO idea.

 

[MIA42178]

i never saw a Randy defense get "mucked up" or done as bad as we have the last 5 weeks. And if it was it was done by a legit guy like a Petrino etc.

I think you're right for the most part, but *****, I remember a game against GT where they rushed for **** near 500 yards. Don't remember what year it was.

and what did randy do to that gt offense the next yr>,?...

UNC and Duke has been eating No Frio's lunch 3 yrs running...and thats with bad offenses....i mean unc killed him 2 yrsd running with ONE player....Gio Bernard was Uncs entire offense and dude did nothing to scheme him...this yr it was pretty obvios their te was their ONLY threat...and dude was running wide open from sun life to deerfield beach....during the weeks regular message board posters are given the heads up on opposing players....(i love those threads by dmoney,danny) and guess what those same players eat our lunch...its like No Frio has noooo clue....i mean for godsakes wake's wr is responsible for like 85% of their offense and it was like we had NOOOO idea.

I'll add it was acc first glimpse at 3-option/wing T offense. GT ran a train on **** near everyone, finished 1st or 2nd in acc?, and if I recall was one of if not the top rushing offense that year

 

[DeadPoets]

There's no comparison. Shannon is a much better DC that D'Onofrio.

Shannon's worst defenses at Miami (even with him as a HC) we're not this bad.

How far we've fallen that most here would take Shannon as a DC right now. Lol

 

[QuadCityCane]

4-3 1 gap, 3-4 2 gap, 4-2-5, dont think its going to matter much. Any half way decent offensive coordinator will still find the weaknesses.
Fire all the coaches if you want I dont want to argue that anymore. I just want people to objectively look at this and tell me there still wouldnt be problems.

Randy's Defense
07-26.0 ppg
NFL-Gooden, K Phillips, Mccarthy, Campbell, Sharpton, (underused Dixon), Freshman Van Dyke, Bailey
08-24.2 ppg
NFL-Spence, Sharpton, Harris, Bailey, Dixon, Mccarthy(injured), Van Dyke, Forston
09-22.2 ppg
NFL-Sharpton, Mccarthy, Harris, Shields, Spence, Bailey, Van Dyke
10-20.7 ppg
NFL-Mccarthy, Spence, Bailey, Harris, Vernon, Forston, Van Dyke, Freshman Mcgee

Golden's Defense
11-20.1 ppg
NFL-Spence, Mcgee, Forston, Ray Ray, Vernon, Freshman Perryman, Chickillo
12-30.5 ppg
NFL-Mcgee, Perry, Chick, ?
13-25.5 ppg
NFL-Perry, Chick, ?

Golden's first year D with NFL players suspended 1-6 weeks was actually better PPG than any defense Shannon had over the previous 4 years.

Now maybe we would have beat Duke and VT with another scheme, but whos to say we beat Florida, Wake, NC, GT playing something else.