How different would the conversation be if we had stepped on the gas and stomped ND?

[TheOriginalCane]

Based on the narrative “ND is the better team now and would be favored on a neutral field” it didn’t matter how much we beat ND by

Galloways idiotic “Miami really beat VT by 10” is a perfect illustration of creative writing to support their overall agenda

Later Galloway said "Games should only be 58 minutes long"...

 

[flips]

I know what he's talking about. And I've mentioned this MULTIPLE times in multiple threads. "Pace" is about more than just "seconds between snaps". You also look at the pace of our drives overall, as well as the number of possessions per game.

There is a big difference between a 14-play drive that takes 9 minutes to go 70 yards and a 7-play drive that takes less than 5 minutes to go the same distance.

I believe that we should be working on ALL of these things:

a) not spending as much time between snaps
b) working on more explosive plays
c) using a faster tempo in certain situations, particularly after our defense holds the other team to a short drive/punt situation

I respect the point of view that says if we ran a bunch of 2-minute scoring drives, our defense wouldn't have a lot of time to rest, and the game might turn into a shootout. Fair enough.

But aiming for 5 minute drives on offense would give our defense enough time to rest. We don't need 10 minute drives to give our defense MORE rest. Watching our games, this is why we frequently give up big yardage early in our opponents' drives, our defense comes out flat and then tightens up after a few first downs have been earned against us.

Gotcha, didn't realize you were defining pace beyond the metric he was using.

Since the TD drive against Cuse (~10.5 quarters) we have had:
20+ yard plays: 17
30+: 7
40+: 4
50+: 2

We have had 12 TD drives avg time 3m56s, avg distance 71.2yards, avg time between snaps (over last 3 games): 31.3 seconds.

My point is that it looks like we have been more explosive on offense recently, while we haven't been spending a ton of time to get TDs, but our pace between plays has been glacial.

I guess I'm struggling to understand why the pace thing has become such an issue when our offense has been playing as well as they have the entire year. We have gotten more explosive, our drives aren't taking 10min, but we have a picnic between snaps.

 

[Fightinibis]

We were well on our way, then let up and end up with a 27-24 win that lets people pretend it wasn't a big deal & lets them say ND has won or been in every game...which is just not true. It would be a much tougher argument to have ND at 9 & Miami at 12 if that had been a 38-10 win...which we could have had if this staph didn't play scared to lose. Ironic that it might have lost us a spot in the CFP.

Up 21-7, I think we all thought the same thing.

To watch us have to squeak it out was maddening, but I still hoped it was a one off....wrong.

Right now I'm trying to desperately ward off what Pitt at the end of the season in colder weather could.....not even going to finish that as I knock on wood.

I just wish we had a hated rival as our last game, I will leave it at that.

 

[flips]

I don't think it would matter to the committee if everything else after the game stayed the same. They could still claim ND played TAMU close, the first game doesn't matter, we lost to two unranked teams, etc.

 

[Handsome Squidbum]

I asked ChatGPT what Trump would say.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Gotcha, didn't realize you were defining pace beyond the metric he was using.

Since the TD drive against Cuse (~10.5 quarters) we have had:
20+ yard plays: 17
30+: 7
40+: 4
50+: 2

We have had 12 TD drives avg time 3m56s, avg distance 71.2yards, avg time between snaps (over last 3 games): 31.3 seconds.

My point is that it looks like we have been more explosive on offense recently, while we haven't been spending a ton of time to get TDs, but our pace between plays has been glacial.

I guess I'm struggling to understand why the pace thing has become such an issue when our offense has been playing as well as they have the entire year. We have gotten more explosive, our drives aren't taking 10min, but we have a picnic between snaps.

Pace is incredibly important. And, yes, there is "in-between pace" and "overall pace".

But let's look at the VaTech game as an example.

In the first half, we had THREE "normal" drives, ones in which we were not forced to go tempo/2-minute drive. The 4th drive of the first half began with less than 2 minutes in the half. We went 58 yards in 53 seconds and got a field goal.

In the second half, we had THREE "normal" drives, ones in which we did not have to speed things up. The 4th drive of the second half began with about 2 minutes left in the game, and would have been a "clock killer" if we were not leading by "only 10 points" and needed some style points.

Bottom line, 6 normal drives is not a lot. Even if you score the maximum number of points per drive, that gives you 42 points. In those 6 drives, we only scored 24 points, and then added on 10 points with our 2-minute offense. I'm fine with relying on 3 points at the end of the first half, but we have to be honest, we never would have tried to score that last TD if we were up by 24 points with 2 minutes left to play.

Now, some of this was the fault of the Miami defense. We didn't get a single "3-and-out" for the whole game. We forced one punt off of 4 plays, and then a fumble on another 4-play drive. VaTech punted twice, Miami punted twice. We also stopped them on 4th down once and forced the prviously mentioned fumble.

Miami had 2 really long TD drives out of 4. One was 14 plays, one was 11 plays, and these were the two longest drives of the game. For a game in which we "needed style points" and "needed a dominant victory", we should have been aware of our offensive pace ALONG WITH our struggles to get off the field on defense.

The key is, you need to work on all areas. Yes, we might have had a few more explosive plays against VaTech, or maybe we had no 10 minute drives, but we still had a lot of time BETWEEN PLAYS. And if you are just staring at the sideline and not changing the plays to something more productive, it's just a waste of time.

The proof should be in the pudding. On the TWO drives where we ran a fast tempo, we scored 10 points. On the SIX drives where we did not run a fast tempo, we scored 24 points. It might seem like "5 points per drive" vs. "4 points per drive" is not such a big deal, but it kept VaTech in the game and it left us up by "only 10" with 2 minutes to go.

But, hey, if that's the way Mario wants to live life on the edge, who am I to stop him?

I'm just tired of the slow pace, particularly when we have great athletes and a talent advantage over nearly every team.

 

[flips]

Pace is incredibly important. And, yes, there is "in-between pace" and "overall pace".

But let's look at the VaTech game as an example.

In the first half, we had THREE "normal" drives, ones in which we were not forced to go tempo/2-minute drive. The 4th drive began with less than 2 minutes in the half. We went 58 yards in 53 seconds and got a field goal.

In the second half, we had THREE "normal" drives, once in which we did not have to speed things up. The 4th drive bagan with about 2 minutes left in the game, and would have been a "clock killer" if we were not leading by "only 10 points" and needed some style points.

Bottom line, 6 normal drives is not a lot. Even if you score the maximum number of points per drive, that gives you 42 points. In those 6 drives, we only scored 24 points, and then added on 10 points with our 2-minute offense. I'm fine with relying on 3 points at the end of the first half, but we have to be honest, we never would have tried to score that last TD if we were up by 24 points with 2 minutes left to play.

Now, some of this was the fault of the Miami defense. We didn't get a single "3-and-out" for the whole game. We forced one punt off of 4 plays, and then a fumble on another 4-play drive. VaTech punted twice, Miami punted twice. We also stopped them on 4th down once and forced the prviously mentioned fumble.

Miami had 2 really long TD drives out of 4. One was 14 plays, one was 11 plays, and these were the two longest drives of the game. For a game in which we "needed style points" and "needed a dominant victory", we should have been aware of our offensive pace ALONG WITH our struggles to get off the field on defense.

The key is, you need to work on all areas. Yes, we might have had a few more explosive plays against VaTech, or maybe we had no 10 minute drives, but we still had a lot of time BETWEEN PLAYS. And if you are just staring at the sideline and not changing the plays to something more productive, it's just a waste of time.

The proof should be in the pudding. On the TWO drives where we ran a fast tempo, we scored 10 points. On the SIX drives where we did not run a fast tempo, we scored 24 points. It might seem like "5 points per drive" vs. "4 points per drive" is not such a big deal, but it kept VaTech in the game and it left us up by "only 10" with 2 minutes to go.

But, hey, if that's the way Mario wants to live life on the edge, who am I to stop him?

I'm just tired of the slow pace, particularly when we have great athletes and a talent advantage over nearly every team.

I think you're cherry picking a bit by focusing on the 2 long VT drives and ignoring the longer term trend since we got going against Cuse. We only had one other drive of more than 5min since then (the opening FG drive against NC St). We have been more explosive recently and we haven't been holding the ball forever. That's 2 out of the 3 components of pace you mentioned in your first response.(sorry saw now the total time of the drive wasn't Something You listed in a.-c. in your first response) I just don't think we need to reinvent the wheel against Pitt wrt speeding up our pace between snaps when the offense has been playing as well as they have the whole year. Strategically play with tempo, sure, but just keep doing what we have been doing cause it has been working.

I think the biggest difference in the offense now vs earlier in the year is that we have had zero 10+ play and/or 4-5min+ drives that ended in no points, since the first scoring drive against Cuse.

We had 8 such failed drives from UF through the first score against Cuse. (~1.45/game).

 

[305_separatist]

You know what's funny, is we didn't play the ND game any different than we played any other game all year. It's crazy to go back and think about how it played out. It's incredibly consistent to how the entire season has gone.

To your original point, I think it's a good one. I'm usually a "just win" guy, but I do think there's validity to what you're saying. To be clear, I still don't think a bigger win against ND would've vaulted us above them. They're 3 spots ahead, and we do have a head-to-head win, so would let's say a 10 point win do anything? Probably not. But it is a valid question.

But on the whole "playing not to lose" thing....look at this:

We go up 21-7 after playing the middle 8 perfectly. Long drive to start the 3rd quarter, we score halfway through, it's a 2-score game.

We get a 3 and out. Now it's time to pile on.
Run for 6.
Pass for 3.
It's 3rd and 1....anyone have any guesses on what we're gonna do??
Yayyyyyy, it's heavy personnel run, Marty slips (there wasn't much there anyway), and we punt.
We did this ALL **** YEAR. Short-yardage, just run into a pile of humanity and hope you get 2 yards. This was very much a harbinger for things to come.

But OK, we punt, and ND gets a TD. Now it's 21-14.

Fletcher run for 6 on 1st down. Holding call. Where have I seen this before???? It's literally a microcosm of the entire season. Now it's 2nd and 14, we get a pass for 7, it's 3rd and 7, we get sacked. A good play on 1st down, and then a drive is totally torpedoed by a penalty. Think we'll see that ever again going forward?? Nahhh, probably just a one-off LOL.

But wait, we get a pick! It's 1st and 10 on their 28, and we're up 7, about 5 minutes into the 4th quarter.
Fletcher run for 6. OK.
Fletcher run for 1. Now I'm sad.
3rd and 3, what do we do? Fletcher run for 1. I'm gonna throw up.
We did this every goddamned game for the first 9 games of the year.

Field goal, go up 10, they hit a 65 yard pass on the first play of their drive, and now you're in a dogfight. No blowout, let's just hold on and try to win the game.

It's insane to me how this game played out exactly how the rest of them did. Zero creativity in short yardage. Zero tendency breakers. Penalties killing drives. At the time, we all said (me included) "Well, it's Game 1 for Beck. It was raining. That's a really good team, you just do what you need to in order to get a win." But the staff never adjusted once from that game. We did the same exact **** in the same exact situations for the next 3 months. We continued to get awful, backbreaking, drive-killing penalties to totally torpedo drives. Just maddening to go back and play that game over in your mind and realize, holy ****, we really thought we could just play the exact same way over and over and over again and it wouldn't bite us in the ***.

Yeah all this right here lmao

 

[TheATLCane]

This committee isn’t watching any of these games that closely

 

[SCarolina Ibis]

If Mario had opened up the offense from the jump and let them play with tempo, we'd be in the top 10. We spent all that money on a QB just to start the season in a snail's offense.

Multiple times at the end of both halves we slow it down to the point we're running around 3 plays every 2 minutes. I know he has his reasons for it. Like he doesn't want to risk injuries and of course pride.

But unfortunately, he's learning the hard way that the eye test matters and NOBODY is impressed with that slow paced, ground and pound, run out the clock caveman ****.

Notice how the media is talking about how good Beck and our O looks right now? It's not a coincidence that they came around once the offense started playing with more tempo and creativity.

 

[LuCane]

You know what's funny, is we didn't play the ND game any different than we played any other game all year. It's crazy to go back and think about how it played out. It's incredibly consistent to how the entire season has gone.

To your original point, I think it's a good one. I'm usually a "just win" guy, but I do think there's validity to what you're saying. To be clear, I still don't think a bigger win against ND would've vaulted us above them. They're 3 spots ahead, and we do have a head-to-head win, so would let's say a 10 point win do anything? Probably not. But it is a valid question.

But on the whole "playing not to lose" thing....look at this:

We go up 21-7 after playing the middle 8 perfectly. Long drive to start the 3rd quarter, we score halfway through, it's a 2-score game.

We get a 3 and out. Now it's time to pile on.
Run for 6.
Pass for 3.
It's 3rd and 1....anyone have any guesses on what we're gonna do??
Yayyyyyy, it's heavy personnel run, Marty slips (there wasn't much there anyway), and we punt.
We did this ALL **** YEAR. Short-yardage, just run into a pile of humanity and hope you get 2 yards. This was very much a harbinger for things to come.

But OK, we punt, and ND gets a TD. Now it's 21-14.

Fletcher run for 6 on 1st down. Holding call. Where have I seen this before???? It's literally a microcosm of the entire season. Now it's 2nd and 14, we get a pass for 7, it's 3rd and 7, we get sacked. A good play on 1st down, and then a drive is totally torpedoed by a penalty. Think we'll see that ever again going forward?? Nahhh, probably just a one-off LOL.

But wait, we get a pick! It's 1st and 10 on their 28, and we're up 7, about 5 minutes into the 4th quarter.
Fletcher run for 6. OK.
Fletcher run for 1. Now I'm sad.
3rd and 3, what do we do? Fletcher run for 1. I'm gonna throw up.
We did this every goddamned game for the first 9 games of the year.

Field goal, go up 10, they hit a 65 yard pass on the first play of their drive, and now you're in a dogfight. No blowout, let's just hold on and try to win the game.

It's insane to me how this game played out exactly how the rest of them did. Zero creativity in short yardage. Zero tendency breakers. Penalties killing drives. At the time, we all said (me included) "Well, it's Game 1 for Beck. It was raining. That's a really good team, you just do what you need to in order to get a win." But the staff never adjusted once from that game. We did the same exact **** in the same exact situations for the next 3 months. We continued to get awful, backbreaking, drive-killing penalties to totally torpedo drives. Just maddening to go back and play that game over in your mind and realize, holy ****, we really thought we could just play the exact same way over and over and over again and it wouldn't bite us in the ***.

Be fair. We didn’t all say that. I was elated we beat ND. I was very happy we beat UF (though expected). I’m always thrilled when we beat FSU.

All the while, I despised the ‘hold on tight, let’s safely dock this boat’ approach. @skyman and a handful others have been riding this train the entire season.

It’s easy to argue the happy path while the path remains happy. That’s what went on. Except the happy path rarely is sustainable. From little sequences like you just described to instances like sitting on the ball against UF before half (‘it was raining, Lu!’).

To whatever the **** we did against FSU. We sort of saw it all come to a peak in Dallas.

Sometimes, some of us are arguing football and it’s not about mopery. Separately, I genuinely wonder if Mario learned his lesson.

I’m fascinated to see what we’re going to do when things very likely ‘get tight’ this Saturday.

 

[AmherstCane]

The problem is not how badly we beat ND. The problem is losing to two inferior teams.

But I also think @OrangeBowlMagic nailed the bottom line of our situation. And I say that believing that we would be ahead of ND right now if we beat them by 14+. But if we beat them by 14+ then we wouldn’t have lost to SMU and Louisville… because what made the ND game close played a big part in getting beaten by multiple inferior teams.

Regardless… this is an “if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle” situation.

 

[Lokest]

The clock runs for almost the entire game. We are seeing fewer plays per game, and fewer possessions per game, then we saw in the 70s and 80s and 90s.

We need to TERMINATE this outdated concept of "running up the score". **** it. If a losing team wants to keep passing the ball in the second half and "trying" to make the game "closer" than it actually is, then the winning team should do the same.

No mercy. ****, even let your second and third stringers try to score. The season is longer and there are injuries. We should NEVER have to apologize for scoring points. If the other team's defense can't stop us, that's on them.

We should never forget where the MODERN complaints of "running up the score" began. When JJ's Miami Hurricanes kept scoring in the 4th quarter against...Gerry ******* Faust and NOTRE ******* DAME.

WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH...

It also can't be ignored that ONLY ND can be better than they were after losing. Miami can't possibly be better after losing 2 games by a combined total of 9 points, with one of them being to a team that may win the conference and finish 10-3, a de facto playoff team.

 

[OrangeBowlMagic]

Be fair. We didn’t all say that. I was elated we beat ND. I was very happy we beat UF (though expected). I’m always thrilled when we beat FSU.

All the while, I despised the ‘hold on tight, let’s safely dock this boat’ approach. @skyman and a handful others have been riding this train the entire season.

It’s easy to argue the happy path while the path remains happy. That’s what went on. Except the happy path rarely is sustainable. From little sequences like you just described to instances like sitting on the ball against UF before half (‘it was raining, Lu!’).

To whatever the **** we did against FSU. We sort of saw it all come to a peak in Dallas.

Sometimes, some of us are arguing football and it’s not about mopery. Separately, I genuinely wonder if Mario learned his lesson.

I’m fascinated to see what we’re going to do when things very likely ‘get tight’ this Saturday.

Fair. I just think in that particular game, it’s “by any means necessary”. Week 1 games are often sloppy. Our QB was coming off a throwing elbow injury and didn’t play in spring. We were a 3 point dog to the #6 team in the country. A win is a win. By any means necessary. And I don’t think we turtled till after the pick. But still though, you’re right. There’s a track record here and instead of surviving, exhaling, and performing an autopsy, we just went right into that meme of Goofy saying, “And I’ll ******’ do it again”

 

[Calinative]

 

[YLCANE]

In today’s college football you need to pile it on… until it’s halfway through the 4th run your starters and keep playing

If it finishes 60-7 so be it

Agree
When they take starters out hats when you lighten up
Until then
NO MERCY

 

[flips]

We gotta play better in the 4th obv, but the Tennessee splits are craaaaazy

 

[YLCANE]

You know what's funny, is we didn't play the ND game any different than we played any other game all year. It's crazy to go back and think about how it played out. It's incredibly consistent to how the entire season has gone.

To your original point, I think it's a good one. I'm usually a "just win" guy, but I do think there's validity to what you're saying. To be clear, I still don't think a bigger win against ND would've vaulted us above them. They're 3 spots ahead, and we do have a head-to-head win, so would let's say a 10 point win do anything? Probably not. But it is a valid question.

But on the whole "playing not to lose" thing....look at this:

We go up 21-7 after playing the middle 8 perfectly. Long drive to start the 3rd quarter, we score halfway through, it's a 2-score game.

We get a 3 and out. Now it's time to pile on.
Run for 6.
Pass for 3.
It's 3rd and 1....anyone have any guesses on what we're gonna do??
Yayyyyyy, it's heavy personnel run, Marty slips (there wasn't much there anyway), and we punt.
We did this ALL **** YEAR. Short-yardage, just run into a pile of humanity and hope you get 2 yards. This was very much a harbinger for things to come.

But OK, we punt, and ND gets a TD. Now it's 21-14.

Fletcher run for 6 on 1st down. Holding call. Where have I seen this before???? It's literally a microcosm of the entire season. Now it's 2nd and 14, we get a pass for 7, it's 3rd and 7, we get sacked. A good play on 1st down, and then a drive is totally torpedoed by a penalty. Think we'll see that ever again going forward?? Nahhh, probably just a one-off LOL.

But wait, we get a pick! It's 1st and 10 on their 28, and we're up 7, about 5 minutes into the 4th quarter.
Fletcher run for 6. OK.
Fletcher run for 1. Now I'm sad.
3rd and 3, what do we do? Fletcher run for 1. I'm gonna throw up.
We did this every goddamned game for the first 9 games of the year.

Field goal, go up 10, they hit a 65 yard pass on the first play of their drive, and now you're in a dogfight. No blowout, let's just hold on and try to win the game.

It's insane to me how this game played out exactly how the rest of them did. Zero creativity in short yardage. Zero tendency breakers. Penalties killing drives. At the time, we all said (me included) "Well, it's Game 1 for Beck. It was raining. That's a really good team, you just do what you need to in order to get a win." But the staff never adjusted once from that game. We did the same exact **** in the same exact situations for the next 3 months. We continued to get awful, backbreaking, drive-killing penalties to totally torpedo drives. Just maddening to go back and play that game over in your mind and realize, holy ****, we really thought we could just play the exact same way over and over and over again and it wouldn't bite us in the ***.

Spot on assessment
Nd play calls
Was harbinger
Of things to come

We should have beat nd 31-14

 

[YLCANE]

We'll pass BYU this weekend with a convincing ranked win over Pitt.
We need help to get to 10 from LSU, MISS ST, or AUB.

Add Washington
If they win BIG

 

[YLCANE]

Auburn has a much better shot of beating Alabama than VT does of beating UVA.

Auburn is not a ****** team at all. They're a 6 point dog. Auburn's losses this year are by 7 (at OU), 6 (at A&M), 10 (to UGA where they got flat robbed by the refs), in Double OT to Mizzou, by 7 (Kentucky, not great), and in OT at UVA.

They haven't lost a game by more than 10 all year, they have 3 other one-score losses and two losses in OT. They can beat Alabama, especially in that weird *** game where the only thing they're playing for is ruining Alabama's season and Bama is likely going to be white-knuckling trying to get to Atlanta/the playoffs.

I thought I saw a statistic where Virginia Tech has beaten Virginia 19 of the past 20 times they’ve played