Umbra
Carolina Cane
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2016
- Messages
- 2,248
I think Golden was a better coach for the price, school support he had, and issues he dealt with.
In 2010, Miami fired Shannon after a loss to USF to end the regular season. Miami would lose to ND in the Sun Bowl 17 and finish the season 7-6.
Golden was hired in Dec and had 2 months to salvage the 2011 class. Later on during Dec. 2015, Richt was hired and given 2 months to salvage the 2016 class.
Recruiting Comparison:
Year | 247 Rank | # of 5* | # top 100 | # of 4* |
2011 | 33 | 1 | 1 | 4 |
2012 | 10 | 2 | 2 | 8 |
2013 | 10 | 0 | 4(3) | 9 | (3 top 100 because I am ignoring Kevin Olsen existing)
2014* | 12 | 1 | 4 | 7 | * = scholarship reduction
2015* | 27 | 0 | 1 | 5 |
2016* | 22 | 0 | 1(0) | 9 | (0 top 100 because Bruce never did anything and kicked off)
2017 | 12 | 0 | 3(1) | 10 | (1 top 100 b/c DJ Johnson & Thomas are gone)
2018 | 8 | 1(2) | 6 | 14 | (I give 2 5* cause Brevin was robbed)
2019 | 35 | 0 | 1 | 6 | SO FAR
We'll have to see how 2019 finishes out, but look at 2015-2018 vs 2011-2014...I barely see a difference. Richt gets credit for 2018, but is it $2million better than what Golden did? Richt seems to get a few more 4* kids, the same # of top 100 recruits, and less 5* talent. However, from 2012 onward, Golden had to recruit while the uncertainty of the NCAA investigation was hanging around. Then in 2014/15, Golden had to deal with reduction of scholarships too. Richt also gets some credit for dealing with the last year of reductions in '16 while also having to salvage the class in a short time, but I just don't know if these slight improvements are a $2m + a "winning, proven" coach worths of difference.
What if we compare W/L records?
Year | Record | Bowl | ACC Coastal Rank |
2011 | 6-6 | Q | 4 | Q = self-imposed ban for bowl.
2012 | 7-5 | Q | 3 | Also qualified for ACCCG
2013 | 9-4 | L | 2 |
2014 | 6-7 | L | 5 |
2015 | 8-5 | L | 3 |
2016 | 9-4 | W | 3 |
2017 | 10-3 | L | 1 |
2018 | 7-6 | L | 3 |
Below are the losses each season and the records/ranking of those teams (in order of quality of loss).
2011 losses: Maryland (2-10), BC (4-8), Virginia (8-5), FSU (9-4 #23), VT (11-3 #21), and Kansas State (10-3 #15). We did beat OSU (6-7).
2012 losses: Virginia (4-8), UNC (8-4), Kansas State (11-2 #12), FSU (12-2 #10), and ND (12-1 #4 and played in NCG but had to vacate wins).
2013 losses: VT (8-5), Duke (10-4 #23), Louisville (12-1 #15 in bowl), and FSU (14-0 #1 won NCG). We beat UF and were ranked #7 at some point.
2014 losses: Virginia (5-7), Pitt (6-7), S. Car (7-6 in bowl), Nebraska (9-4), Louisville (9-4 #24), GT (11-3 #8), and FSU (13-1 #5).
2015 losses: Cincinnati (7-6), FSU (10-3 #14), and Clemson (14-1 #2 who only lost to Bama in the title game) before Golden was fired with a record of 4-3. Went on to also lose to WSU (9-4 in bowl) and UNC (11-3 #15) under Scott.
Under Golden, no teams we beat finished ranked. We beat UF, but lost to FSU every year.
2016 (Richt year 1) losses: ND (4-8), UNC (8-5), VT (10-4 #16), and FSU (10-3 #8). Had a nice ranked win against WVU (10-3 #18 in bowl).
2017 losses: Pitt (5-7), Wisky (13-1 #7 in bowl), and Clemson (12-2 #4 who lost in the CFP Semifinal). Had nice ranked wins against VT (9-4 #24) and ND (10-3 #11)
2018 losses: Virginia (7-5), BC (7-5), Duke (7-5), GT (7-5), Wisky (8-5 #? in bowl), and LSU (9-3 #11). No ranked wins.
I think next season will be the one that will tell the real story, but so far Richt has beat FSU twice, finished seasons ranked, and won a bowl game which is better than Golden. Richt's 1st season was as good as Golden ever did and he should get credit for that. It is amusing though that our offense did better under the offensive scheme Richt was forced to use b/c of Kaaya. Our offense got worse every year in almost every category statistically besides rushing yards.
Richt also gets major props for the '17 season, which was especially great due to the ND and VT wins, turnover chain, and temporary national relevance. 2017 also makes it hard to argue that Richt doesn't have better gameday performance even if Manny helped and Kelly/Fuente corched it up and we had some crazy luck with GT and FSU (who was especially bad both years).
If you average the W/L records, you get Richt with 8.7- 4.3 and Golden with 7.2- 5.4. I don't think Richt is worth twice the salary, especially if you look at the performance of the teams the losses come from. Golden had worse inexplicable losses and always lost to ranked teams that performed well. And Richt has won 3 big games Golden could never win. But given how many more resources Richt has, how much more support from the school he seems to have, and how much better his assistants get paid and are, nothing adds up. To me, he is under-performing majorly in everything that Manny didn't have a hand in.
Anyone else have some thoughts?
In 2010, Miami fired Shannon after a loss to USF to end the regular season. Miami would lose to ND in the Sun Bowl 17 and finish the season 7-6.
Golden was hired in Dec and had 2 months to salvage the 2011 class. Later on during Dec. 2015, Richt was hired and given 2 months to salvage the 2016 class.
Recruiting Comparison:
Year | 247 Rank | # of 5* | # top 100 | # of 4* |
2011 | 33 | 1 | 1 | 4 |
2012 | 10 | 2 | 2 | 8 |
2013 | 10 | 0 | 4(3) | 9 | (3 top 100 because I am ignoring Kevin Olsen existing)
2014* | 12 | 1 | 4 | 7 | * = scholarship reduction
2015* | 27 | 0 | 1 | 5 |
2016* | 22 | 0 | 1(0) | 9 | (0 top 100 because Bruce never did anything and kicked off)
2017 | 12 | 0 | 3(1) | 10 | (1 top 100 b/c DJ Johnson & Thomas are gone)
2018 | 8 | 1(2) | 6 | 14 | (I give 2 5* cause Brevin was robbed)
2019 | 35 | 0 | 1 | 6 | SO FAR
We'll have to see how 2019 finishes out, but look at 2015-2018 vs 2011-2014...I barely see a difference. Richt gets credit for 2018, but is it $2million better than what Golden did? Richt seems to get a few more 4* kids, the same # of top 100 recruits, and less 5* talent. However, from 2012 onward, Golden had to recruit while the uncertainty of the NCAA investigation was hanging around. Then in 2014/15, Golden had to deal with reduction of scholarships too. Richt also gets some credit for dealing with the last year of reductions in '16 while also having to salvage the class in a short time, but I just don't know if these slight improvements are a $2m + a "winning, proven" coach worths of difference.
What if we compare W/L records?
Year | Record | Bowl | ACC Coastal Rank |
2011 | 6-6 | Q | 4 | Q = self-imposed ban for bowl.
2012 | 7-5 | Q | 3 | Also qualified for ACCCG
2013 | 9-4 | L | 2 |
2014 | 6-7 | L | 5 |
2015 | 8-5 | L | 3 |
2016 | 9-4 | W | 3 |
2017 | 10-3 | L | 1 |
2018 | 7-6 | L | 3 |
Below are the losses each season and the records/ranking of those teams (in order of quality of loss).
2011 losses: Maryland (2-10), BC (4-8), Virginia (8-5), FSU (9-4 #23), VT (11-3 #21), and Kansas State (10-3 #15). We did beat OSU (6-7).
2012 losses: Virginia (4-8), UNC (8-4), Kansas State (11-2 #12), FSU (12-2 #10), and ND (12-1 #4 and played in NCG but had to vacate wins).
2013 losses: VT (8-5), Duke (10-4 #23), Louisville (12-1 #15 in bowl), and FSU (14-0 #1 won NCG). We beat UF and were ranked #7 at some point.
2014 losses: Virginia (5-7), Pitt (6-7), S. Car (7-6 in bowl), Nebraska (9-4), Louisville (9-4 #24), GT (11-3 #8), and FSU (13-1 #5).
2015 losses: Cincinnati (7-6), FSU (10-3 #14), and Clemson (14-1 #2 who only lost to Bama in the title game) before Golden was fired with a record of 4-3. Went on to also lose to WSU (9-4 in bowl) and UNC (11-3 #15) under Scott.
Under Golden, no teams we beat finished ranked. We beat UF, but lost to FSU every year.
2016 (Richt year 1) losses: ND (4-8), UNC (8-5), VT (10-4 #16), and FSU (10-3 #8). Had a nice ranked win against WVU (10-3 #18 in bowl).
2017 losses: Pitt (5-7), Wisky (13-1 #7 in bowl), and Clemson (12-2 #4 who lost in the CFP Semifinal). Had nice ranked wins against VT (9-4 #24) and ND (10-3 #11)
2018 losses: Virginia (7-5), BC (7-5), Duke (7-5), GT (7-5), Wisky (8-5 #? in bowl), and LSU (9-3 #11). No ranked wins.
I think next season will be the one that will tell the real story, but so far Richt has beat FSU twice, finished seasons ranked, and won a bowl game which is better than Golden. Richt's 1st season was as good as Golden ever did and he should get credit for that. It is amusing though that our offense did better under the offensive scheme Richt was forced to use b/c of Kaaya. Our offense got worse every year in almost every category statistically besides rushing yards.
Richt also gets major props for the '17 season, which was especially great due to the ND and VT wins, turnover chain, and temporary national relevance. 2017 also makes it hard to argue that Richt doesn't have better gameday performance even if Manny helped and Kelly/Fuente corched it up and we had some crazy luck with GT and FSU (who was especially bad both years).
If you average the W/L records, you get Richt with 8.7- 4.3 and Golden with 7.2- 5.4. I don't think Richt is worth twice the salary, especially if you look at the performance of the teams the losses come from. Golden had worse inexplicable losses and always lost to ranked teams that performed well. And Richt has won 3 big games Golden could never win. But given how many more resources Richt has, how much more support from the school he seems to have, and how much better his assistants get paid and are, nothing adds up. To me, he is under-performing majorly in everything that Manny didn't have a hand in.
Anyone else have some thoughts?