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Former FSU player shot, caught on camera.

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TerragonSix said:
Incidentally, police unions have no real power. They can't strike, if they do, the President can deem them 'neccessary' and force them back to work of threats of prison time.

Happened in the Reagan administration.

Same thing happened with the Air Traffic Control guys.

Thats why even if a Truckers Union came back, they would have no real power.

Do I agree with that? No. Forcing people to work when they don't want to work is Slavery.
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Police unions have incredible power when it comes to covering up the bad deeds their cops do. Additionally, they have power to keep the bad seeds around to continue to abuse people. Their ability to strike is pretty meaningless in this discussion.
 
pacusmc said:
Crack turned many middle class black neighborhoods into high crime poverty centers. Another consequence was the fact that it made assault weapons a must have for gun owners. I don’t recall this fascination with military grade weapons in the 70’s. But When gangs started commiting drive by’s with ak47s and drug dealers down here started spraying people with mac11s it began a **** arms race and the militarization of police. Miami was the first police department to issue a glock 17. The weapon of choice all over the country for police was the .38 revolver.
Crack decimated the family structure in black communities. The psychological trauma that children lived through can not be understated by any means I do t think there has been a movie or a documentary that has fully documented or expressed what really happened.
Only 3 movies dove into to the subject but they never really totally grasped what went on back then. New Jack City, menace to society and boys in the hood. But none really were able to capture the entire picture.
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Exactly.

The 70s set the stage with the party scene and importation of cocaine people snorted.

There were rough cities, but nothing like what we say in the 80s and early 90s.
 
The Franchise said:
Police unions have incredible power when it comes to covering up the bad deeds their cops do. Additionally, they have power to keep the bad seeds around to continue to abuse people. Their ability to strike is pretty meaningless in this discussion.
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Yes. This is the issue with the unions. Similar to teachers unions...the ****tiest teachers are protected from being weeded out. Ending these union contracts would do a great deal in holding police officers more accountable.
 
TruCane81 said:
No. The point was that violence with automatic weapons in the street is fueled by prohibition. The daily territorial violence. Not like the rare random mass shooters of today. That type of wide spread street violence in the white community started and ended with prohibition.

What you say about education is true, but like most people looking for solutions to these problems, you are missing the big picture.

This is no insult to your character or intelligence. I believe your intentions with this sentiment are pure and authentic. But it leaves out huge pieces of the puzzle.

The question is WHY do so many black people, especially young black men, not value education?

This is where it starts to get more complicated and people can’t see the whole thing.

I will use my family as an example. There are issues at play almost exclusively due to racism blacks have faced in America. However there are other issues that effect the white community as well, but not with the same magnitude.

My grandparents and older aunts and uncles. came of age in the golden age of post World War 2 America. Some people value education differently as natural default without outside influence. As blacks in the south they didn’t have the same resources and opportunities, but they worked hard.

They picked fruit or did the hardest, most dangerous jobs in the mines and used the money to get affordable college educations. As the Civil Rights movement progressed, their opportunities expanded. My family was not unique. A LARGE portion of SOUTHERN blacks were doing this.

Their incomes rose and their children did not have to work to support the family. So they didn’t have the same work ethic. They were still working good jobs, but some got caught up in the party culture of the 70s.

The 70 s were a turning point because drug importation began to explode and admiration for the drug dealer lifestyle began to spread.

Economic down turns and outsourcing hurt many cities and many people turned to street life to survive. Projects were built. Welfare checks were handed out. Jobs were hard to get. Nothing to do but get high or drunk. Many fell through the cracks. The people who were fortunate and/or persevered succeeded.

The 80s came. So did crack. The community COMPLETELY IMPLODED. It caught people by surprise. Coke and weed weren’t that big a deal. These little white flakes were harmless. THEY COULD NOT HAVE BEEN MORE WRONG. Look at the difference between the way a powder head looks and the way a crack head looks and it tells you all you need to know.

Good, hard working people got addicted and turned to unrecognizable creatures. The sellers made a FORTUNE and turned the sexual marketplace and stays competition completely upside down. Cities turned to war zones with factions fighting for territory or addicts robbing for their next hit.

The children who grew up witnessing this catastrophe had ZERO chance to see the world the same way their parents and grandparents did.

Economic policy and the life style created by lucrative drug dealing created a large portion of the population who could not see the value of hard work because it didn’t match anything they saw in real life.

There are innumerable accounts of how the U.S. government’s resources were used to import and distribute drugs. This occurrence was no accident. It was known the effect that importing massive amounts of addictive drugs and making them illegal would have. It was down derail the astronomical progress black people were making after the 60s Civil Rights Movement.

The real legacy of racism and prohibition is the destruction of mind and spirit. People are so psychologically and emotionally destroyed they can’t even imagine desiring something better, let alone actually getting on the road of hard work to do it.

That was the goal the plan had in mind and it was executed to perfection. Yes some people can ignore the blight. Yes some people can stay focused and overcome. But many can’t and don’t.

Any leader with the foresight to see what was taking place was murdered. Strike the shepherd, scatter the sheep. It’s the 10-80-10 rule, but people pretend it doesn’t apply to the black community.

They spout off all the right wing rhetoric which is partially true in a vacuum. But life doesn’t occur in a vacuum. Everything effects everything else. This is a brief description of the recent problems in the black community. Haven’t even gotten to how slavery and Jim Crow etc, tie into all of this. It would take a series of long books to describe it( though that is what you might call this ridiculously long post lol).

Your advice to people to get a trade is VERY GOOD ADVICE. **** it is great advice. But when you look at the bigger picture that I haven’t really touched even the tip of the iceberg on(volumes upon volumes have been written on these things in much, much greater detail), you see how that advice is so ineffective to the larger problem, though it can have a profound affect on the individual that is able to receive and act on it.
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WELL FIRST OF ALL!!!!!!!


...Thank you. Thank you for recognizing that my intentions are pure and decent, rather than being an apologist and agenda driven. I legitimately appreciate that you give me enough respect as a man in that regard.

Secondly, the drug culture of the 60's and 70's was endemic of youth culture, protests against the Vietnam War, etc.

But drugs were around in the 40's and 50's (pills) as well.

Did the government, or government official smuggle drugs into this country? Definately. It's incontrovertible. Barry Seal hauled more drugs for the CIA than the Columbians.

Do I think they smuggled drugs in for the specific purpose of targeting blacks? Nah, I don't think so. Using Occams Razor, I assume greed was the primary concern, nothing more.

The Vietnam Vets in VA hospitals were put on prescribed narcotics for years. Instead of trying to treat their conditions, they'd rather just keep them under control with pain pills. Probably because again, it was cheaper to sedate them rather than treat them.

And today, the government isn't to be bothered with taking care of combat vets. That is a tired old story.

My stepbrother died almost two years ago. He died with six different prescription medications in his system. He had been to rehab three times, in jail twice. He was a Division II football prospect that played in the Outback Bowl against Jonathan Vilma. He left behind a two year old son.

Because he couldn't shake the hold narcotics had on him.

I saw kids die in Liberty City as a medic. I remember a 14 year old that his heart exploded from a cocaine OD. I remember thinking, "...How the **** did he get it, and how the **** did he know how to snort it?"

14. Dead. No true love. No prom. No dad bod.

...But drugs, are not merely a black problem. They are a problem for everyone.

I think I'll leave you guys to it.
 
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CaneSince4Ever said:
Yes there is, watch Hoop Dreams, the daddy was a crackhead. And BTW, heroin & meth is currently destroying the family structure in rural areas, plenty of documentaries on that.
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I saw it. But I’m talking about getting a 5 year old living in a middle class neighborhood with decent schools. Kids playing in the streets and mom and dad home. Fast forward 2 years later and only one or maybe non are home. Dad might be in jail and mom might be turning tricks. Your entire existence as it was 2 years prior os upside down. Shootouts, dead bodies, police everywhere. crack heads everywhere. Shops and stores closed down. Your older brother shot. Funerals every **** weekend. The tax base to your school dissolved to nothing and now the classrooms are full of overwhelmed teachers trying to teach kids with a broken family living with a grandmother or a cousin.
 
Plzwork4 said:
Why did you leave out meth?
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In this particular quote, I was responding to a statement about crack cocaine vs. powder cocaine sentencing. If you are asking why I left it out of the analysis completely, I was doing a comparison between two drugs that were both targeted by federal legislation at about the same time in the 80s, and which have a nearly identical chemical composition.

The current sentencing guidelines for meth are similarly harsh. If I recall correctly, the weight requirements are much closer to crack (28g) than powder cocaine (still 500g), and even more punitive for "pure" meth.
 
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TerragonSix said:
WELL FIRST OF ALL!!!!!!!


...Thank you. Thank you for recognizing that my intentions are pure and decent, rather than being an apologist and agenda driven. I legitimately appreciate that you give me enough respect as a man in that regard.

Secondly, the drug culture of the 60's and 70's was endemic of youth culture, protests against the Vietnam War, etc.

But drugs were around in the 40's and 50's (pills) as well.

Did the government, or government official smuggle drugs into this country? Definately. It's incontrovertible. Barry Seal hauled more drugs for the CIA than the Columbians.

Do I think they smuggled drugs in for the specific purpose of targeting blacks? Nah, I don't think so. Using Occams Razor, I assume greed was the primary concern, nothing more.

The Vietnam Vets in VA hospitals were put on prescribed narcotics for years. Instead of trying to treat their conditions, they'd rather just keep them under control with pain pills. Probably because again, it was cheaper to sedate them rather than treat them.

And today, the government isn't to be bothered with taking care of combat vets. That is a tired old story.

My stepbrother died almost two years ago. He died with six different prescription medications in his system. He had been to rehab three times, in jail twice. He was a Division II football prospect that played in the Outback Bowl against Jonathan Vilma. He left behind a two year old son.

Because he couldn't shake the hold narcotics had on him.

I saw kids die in Liberty City as a medic. I remember a 14 year old that his heart exploded from a cocaine OD. I remember thinking, "...How the **** did he get it, and how the **** did he know how to snort it?"

14. Dead. No true love. No prom. No dad bod.

...But drugs, are not merely a black problem. They are a problem for everyone.

I think I'll leave you guys to it.
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You are welcome.

Drugs are certainly a problem for all Americans. Not a black or white thing. The difference is that the historic economic situation of black people in America causes them to affect our communities differently.

The increased level of poverty for blacks causes them to seek drug dealing as a profession at a much higher rate. White people are generally just more interested in getting high.

I disagree that the massive importation of drugs was not planned. Greed is what got everyone to play along. In the end it does not matter.

In the 30s, America put the quality of life above greed and ideology. They ended the prohibition to save their children even though there was a MASSIVE profit incentive to keep it going. They turned themselves from criminals to tax paying entrepreneurs.

Drugs have been around a long time, but were not widely available until the late 60s to 80s. Drugs were more a hobby for rich people before that.The post World War 2 era is America’s most prosperous era and turned us into the world’s foremost superpower. The same economic and social conditions that lead to the social destruction we are discussing in this post didn’t materialize until later with massive quantities of cheap drugs and people desperate enough to take the risk selling them.

Crack completely changed the black community. That is not to minimize the heart breaking consequences drug abuse has on white people. It just created a more thorough destruction of the black community at large than the white community has seen as a whole.
 
Plzwork4 said:
Yes. This is the issue with the unions. Similar to teachers unions...the ****tiest teachers are protected from being weeded out. Ending these union contracts would do a great deal in holding police officers more accountable.
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The quickest and most effective solution to the long history of brutality in law enforcement is to stop making it so easy to harbor thugs on the force. It's been so easy to harbor the hooligans that it actually serves to foster and promote that vile behavior.

We don't need to get rid of police; we need to abolish the mindset and tactics with which they currently police. They need to overhaul the mindset from being at war with citizens to being of service to citizens. The only way that's possible is to immediately remove any cop that violates that tenet and not simply allow him to go somewhere else or to continue abusing people in the same locale.

If a guy has 17 prior incidents, then you know who he is if you're paying attention. He should have never had the chance to have that 18th incident.
 
The Franchise said:
The quickest and most effective solution to the long history of brutality in law enforcement is to stop making it so easy to harbor thugs on the force. It's been so easy to harbor the hooligans that it actually serves to foster and promote that vile behavior.

We don't need to get rid of police; we need to abolish the mindset and tactics with which they currently police. They need to overhaul the mindset from being at war with citizens to being of service to citizens. The only way that's possible is to immediately remove any cop that violates that tenet and not simply allow him to go somewhere else or to continue abusing people in the same locale.

If a guy has 17 prior incidents, then you know who he is if you're paying attention. He should have never had the chance to have that 18th incident.
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Precisely. Guarantee you that you can walk into any precinct in America, give the desk sergeant truth serum, and he/she can identify the officers most likely to be involved in illegal use of force. They know who the problems are, but there is no legal incentive to expel the bad actors. Change the laws, and we change the outcomes overnight.
 
The Franchise said:
The quickest and most effective solution to the long history of brutality in law enforcement is to stop making it so easy to harbor thugs on the force. It's been so easy to harbor the hooligans that it actually serves to foster and promote that vile behavior.

We don't need to get rid of police; we need to abolish the mindset and tactics with which they currently police. They need to overhaul the mindset from being at war with citizens to being of service to citizens. The only way that's possible is to immediately remove any cop that violates that tenet and not simply allow him to go somewhere else or to continue abusing people in the same locale.

If a guy has 17 prior incidents, then you know who he is if you're paying attention. He should have never had the chance to have that 18th incident.
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Yea I agree...and the best and fastest way to impact that is breaking these police officer union contracts...there will be instantly more accountability. Where I live the police force is very proactive in the community...its been working here very well. We had some great protests here without any rioting. For that I'm very grateful and relieved. A lot of it had to do with an understanding and fair but firm police force. I think it has been productive.

Like I said before. I'm all about protesting and exercising your 1st amendment...but miss me with the rioting, looting, and setting your community on fire.
 
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CaneSince4Ever said:
Precisely. Guarantee you that you can walk into any precinct in America, give the desk sergeant truth serum, and he/she can identify the officers most likely to be involved in illegal use of force. They know who the problems are, but there is no legal incentive to expel the bad actors. Change the laws, and we change the outcomes overnight.
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Yep. The sad part is watching these police chiefs talk about these situations and try to appear honest and earnest when they mention "bad apples" and dumb **** like that. The problem is that they should be able to identify these "bad apples" very early and not permit them to be habitual "bad apples" that continue to abuse citizens and violate their human rights under the guise of being judge, jury, and executioner.
 
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Plzwork4 said:
Yea I agree...and the best and fastest way to impact that is breaking these police officer union contracts...there will be instantly more accountability. Where I live the police force is very proactive in the community...its been working here very well. We had some great protests here without any rioting. For that I'm very grateful and relieved. A lot of it had to do with an understanding and fair but firm police force. I think it has been productive.

Like I said before. I'm all about protesting and exercising your 1st amendment...but miss me with the rioting, looting, and setting your community on fire.
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I think the "few bad apples" rationale that people use to justify abhorrent police violence and abuse also applies to the looting. Overall, the protesting has been incredibly peaceful, and I applaud the folks who go out there every day in the interest of changing a broken system that encourages abuse of people.
 
The Franchise said:
I think the "few bad apples" rationale that people use to justify abhorrent police violence and abuse also applies to the looting. Overall, the protesting has been incredibly peaceful, and I applaud the folks who go out there every day in the interest of changing a broken system that encourages abuse of people.
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In that same light, more needs to be done by the protesters to make every attempt to cast out the bad apple rioters. At least find a way to differentiate...shirts and skins maybe?

I mean we can't go on having people shot and killed and people's livelihoods being destroyed like this.
 
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