For those wondering about Formations and Back 7 Depth

[fincane]

Lu, could you compare some screen shots of our old 4-3 defense (Schiano/Shannon) in the early 2000's. Just curious how the alignment and depth compares. I always remember our safeties playing very deep, although I believe our front was meant to penetrate, so it would be interesting to compare and contrast styles.

Good idea. Just a quick answer as I have to get back.

Two things:

1) As I said in the OP and you stated above, different front. We were a big time upfield DL. Some would say guys like Mcdougle were too upfield and lost contain at times. It changes the flow and timing of a play, naturally.

2) Offensive formations have changed a lot. Zone-read is popular now. 4WR sets are as common, sometimes more, than 21 personnel groupings. The easiest way to compare is to compare how we look against 21 personnel in the original post (so picture #5 from the top), to the below:

View attachment 25868

Like I alluded to, the numbers aren't altogether THAT different. It's the style and broader philosophy. In the picture above, we're headed upfield. 2 of our LBs are standing up at the end of the LOS. The remaining LB isn't at 5+ yards. Our Safeties can be 30 yards deep and I wouldn't care because they're not being asked to fly down and set the edge for the defense. See some of the differences in theory? It's riskier, no doubt.

That picture looks like a pack of nine sharks about to attack some baitfish. The ones from this year reminds me of three guys splashing in the surf with a bunch of sunbathers looking on for a distance for fear of getting wet.

That picture was 2 and 10 and we were still all on the line. Why, because friggin NE only runs the ball. Flash forward to this year and how many 3 and 2's were our LBs STILL five yards deep-- even on the 6 or 7 yard line.

All this is so depressing. I want to focus on the simple fact that we now have REAL QB. Kid still has problems under center but is deadly from the gun up the field and over the middle. Take Coley little fsu love child WR screen out of the playbook and Kaaya is a classic Miami QB. I like QB under center but watched Brock get tortured by it so just leave the kid in the gun and let him fly. Our Oline is can seem to go smash mouth anyway and looks better in gun.

There is no hope for this defense, but our new coach will have a heck of a QB and that means a lot, a whole lot. Al is done. He can't even show up in public. The only question is firing him Donna's last act or the next president's first act. If we had a real OC, Kaaya might save Al's job but Coley can't get out of his own way(he is to stubborn to see that HIS plays don't work too) so they are all gone.

I don't know about Coley being stubborn. We ran draws against Nebraska. Something I haven't seen. More tosses. Less stretch plays. The offense and the playcalling continues to grow. As far as the screens go those usually get us 4-5 cheap yards. I don't have a huge problem with them. Sad that the less experienced coordinator doesn't have the "smartest guy in the room" complex and is willing to adapt so far.

 

[terdferguson]

It ain't getting any better

Barry Jackson ‏@flasportsbuzz 25s

Theme from Mark D'Onofrio today is execution must be better. "Talent is not enough," he said. No indication of scheme changes

Music to my ears. This will hasten these new jersey ******s demise.

 

[Mangum]

Donofrio with the quote of the year/century:

D'Onofrio defends scheme by noting "Every call we make is designed to have somebody make a tackle."

This is inline with his stance of yards not mattering. It all makes sense now.

The complete quote is "tackle for loss no gain". I read it somewhere. Not that it matters. Nothing about what this defense does says we're looking to get you into in 2nd and 12. Giving up 3 yards has become a win.

**** they failed there too. There were no tackles for a loss in the game. 50+ rushing attempts + no sacks. Gots to do better than that

 

[Iggcane]

Lu, could you compare some screen shots of our old 4-3 defense (Schiano/Shannon) in the early 2000's. Just curious how the alignment and depth compares. I always remember our safeties playing very deep, although I believe our front was meant to penetrate, so it would be interesting to compare and contrast styles.

Good idea. Just a quick answer as I have to get back.

Two things:

1) As I said in the OP and you stated above, different front. We were a big time upfield DL. Some would say guys like Mcdougle were too upfield and lost contain at times. It changes the flow and timing of a play, naturally.

2) Offensive formations have changed a lot. Zone-read is popular now. 4WR sets are as common, sometimes more, than 21 personnel groupings. The easiest way to compare is to compare how we look against 21 personnel in the original post (so picture #5 from the top), to the below:

View attachment 25868

Like I alluded to, the numbers aren't altogether THAT different. It's the style and broader philosophy. In the picture above, we're headed upfield. 2 of our LBs are standing up at the end of the LOS. The remaining LB isn't at 5+ yards. Our Safeties can be 30 yards deep and I wouldn't care because they're not being asked to fly down and set the edge for the defense. See some of the differences in theory? It's riskier, no doubt.

Just for fun, if we ran this scheme to day, we could fill it the following: Pierre and Jenkins at Tackle, Chick and McCord/Thomas at DE, DP in the middle, Grace and Armbrister at OLB. These guys playing upfield, I think they create pressure and disrupt timing. Doubt they don't give up some plays, as they are not nearly as talented as the group from 2002, but you have to believe we will make more plays than we do now….

 

[Jedi Master Cane]

Awesome post Lu....can't tell you how much I enjoy these detailed breakdowns.

 

[Dynasty]

Lu, could you compare some screen shots of our old 4-3 defense (Schiano/Shannon) in the early 2000's. Just curious how the alignment and depth compares. I always remember our safeties playing very deep, although I believe our front was meant to penetrate, so it would be interesting to compare and contrast styles.

Good idea. Just a quick answer as I have to get back.

Two things:

1) As I said in the OP and you stated above, different front. We were a big time upfield DL. Some would say guys like Mcdougle were too upfield and lost contain at times. It changes the flow and timing of a play, naturally.

2) Offensive formations have changed a lot. Zone-read is popular now. 4WR sets are as common, sometimes more, than 21 personnel groupings. The easiest way to compare is to compare how we look against 21 personnel in the original post (so picture #5 from the top), to the below:

View attachment 25868

Like I alluded to, the numbers aren't altogether THAT different. It's the style and broader philosophy. In the picture above, we're headed upfield. 2 of our LBs are standing up at the end of the LOS. The remaining LB isn't at 5+ yards. Our Safeties can be 30 yards deep and I wouldn't care because they're not being asked to fly down and set the edge for the defense. See some of the differences in theory? It's riskier, no doubt.

That picture looks like a pack of nine sharks about to attack some baitfish. The ones from this year reminds me of three guys splashing in the surf with a bunch of sunbathers looking on for a distance for fear of getting wet.

That picture was 2 and 10 and we were still all on the line. Why, because friggin NE only runs the ball. Flash forward to this year and how many 3 and 2's were our LBs STILL five yards deep-- even on the 6 or 7 yard line.

All this is so depressing. I want to focus on the simple fact that we now have REAL QB. Kid still has problems under center but is deadly from the gun up the field and over the middle. Take Coley little fsu love child WR screen out of the playbook and Kaaya is a classic Miami QB. I like QB under center but watched Brock get tortured by it so just leave the kid in the gun and let him fly. Our Oline is can seem to go smash mouth anyway and looks better in gun.

There is no hope for this defense, but our new coach will have a heck of a QB and that means a lot, a whole lot. Al is done. He can't even show up in public. The only question is firing him Donna's last act or the next president's first act. If we had a real OC, Kaaya might save Al's job but Coley can't get out of his own way(he is to stubborn to see that HIS plays don't work too) so they are all gone.

I don't know about Coley being stubborn. We ran draws against Nebraska. Something I haven't seen. More tosses. Less stretch plays. The offense and the playcalling continues to grow. As far as the screens go those usually get us 4-5 cheap yards. I don't have a huge problem with them. Sad that the less experienced coordinator doesn't have the "smartest guy in the room" complex and is willing to adapt so far.

He's showing improvement. He's got weapons. Dorsett is a mismatch against any secondary in the country. SColey is also a mismatch down the field. Coach C has enough explosiveness and speed to stretch defenses vertically which should open up underneath areas for Berrios, Walford, Duke, etc. He just needs to feature Dorsett more.

 

[D_G87]

" It all starts with me"

 

[Cane Dynasty]

Suicide is painless.

 

[theibisrules]

For all intents and purposes it's a conscious decision to cede 4 yards every single down so long as you don't burn us for 30 which seems absolutely insane but I'm not sure what other conclusion can be drawn when you watch games and see a breakdown like the one above.

You see this at the high school level a lot when smartly coached defensive teams, really mature programs, are playing offenses whose programs have gone to the spread but don't have the precision, consistency, and most importantly patience to take the 4 yard chunks. Inevitably those offenses lose patience, start chunking it deep, and/or make mistakes, playing into what the defense is designed to stop. That's where this defensive mentality flourishes and is at it's best - against poorly coached, inefficient high school offenses. You are 100% not trying to dictate to or press the offense, your entire success hinges on them making mistakes. That's been said many times, but Lu illustrated it perfectly.

That is what is so infuriating. How can the staff not see the forest through the trees?

A bend don't break strategy is essentially an admission of failure.

agreed...the offenses goal is to move the chains, NO MATTER WHAT. So, if that means four or five yards down the field then so be it. Eventually somebody on the defense WILL mess up and they WILL give up the chunk play.

 

[AtrainCane]

Donofrio with the quote of the year/century:

D'Onofrio defends scheme by noting "Every call we make is designed to have somebody make a tackle."

View attachment 25842

 

[texacane]

Donofrio with the quote of the year/century:

D'Onofrio defends scheme by noting "Every call we make is designed to have somebody make a tackle."

And some people here think he doesn't know what he's doing.

 

[AUcane]

It ain't getting any better

Barry Jackson ‏@flasportsbuzz 25s

Theme from Mark D'Onofrio today is execution must be better. "Talent is not enough," he said. No indication of scheme changes

Music to my ears. This will hasten these new jersey ******s demise.

You're right. I hope the current guys read that and question donofrio's judgement as if to say "he's saying I'm not good enough?" He does that enough, all the players will quit.

It's comin...

 

[Muecane]

honest question but why couldn't they run the same scheme but be more aggressive? I just kept asking myself why guys were playing so far off the ball when they were running every play.

I have the same question. LB's are sitting 5-7 yds back CB are sitting 7-10 yds back and Both safeties are sitting 10-15 yards back Why are the LB's sitting 1-2 yds or even at the line of scrimmage and bring up the safeties to 7-10 yes. You could even sneak the strong safety up on running plays. Seems like these guys are coaching scared.

Especially against a rb like Ameer at best your lb gets to the line at the same time Ameer gets there providing a lineman hasn't run through the gap blocking. As happened on Saturday contact was an arm tackle being made almost 2 yds past the line of scrimmage and Ameer almost always picked up another 3-5 yds after first contact even while being gang tackled. It should have been obvious to D'No after the first quarter that you can't arm tackle this guy. Someone please explain this to me.

Help a brother out Lucane.

 

[miamifan007]

I dont understand how the coaches cant see stuff like this. It boggles my mind

They do, they just don't care because they will live and die with what they believe. It's like in a different thread a poster compared it to a "religion". They don't know anything else, even if they wanted to change. It's an Al Groh tree defense.

 

[Muecane]

I dont understand how the coaches cant see stuff like this. It boggles my mind

They do, they just don't care because they will live and die with what they believe. It's like in a different thread a poster compared it to a "religion". They don't know anything else, even if they wanted to change. It's an Al Groh tree defense.

Like Pete Carroll says as a DC you have to pick you defensive scheme and stick with it and be 100% committed. These coaches just have to learn to adjust to what the offense is doing and be more aggressive in their play calling. Coley went from a chump to a champ by being more aggressive and letting his players play. D'No needs to do the same thing. The D has def improved from last year but they are not nearly the level they need to be at. Neb would have put up 550 yds plus with a couple 50 yds runs thrown in for good measure.

 

[OldhamA]

Donofrio with the quote of the year/century:

D'Onofrio defends scheme by noting "Every call we make is designed to have somebody make a tackle."

Besides all the nonsense we see on Saturdays, this quote is very telling. Every call they make should be designed to have multiple guys make a tackle. What if that one guy falls for the play action fake, or gets caught up in the trash or a billion other things?

Players should be swarming to the football, but then that would indicate an attacking, aggressive defence. Something we don't have.

 

[Canesfan1899]

It ain't getting any better

Barry Jackson ‏@flasportsbuzz 25s

Theme from Mark D'Onofrio today is execution must be better. "Talent is not enough," he said. No indication of scheme changes

Speaking of execution, I'll stop, don't want to wish death on anyone.

 

[fivecent]

I just remembered, isn't this the same approach that cost the steelers their 2012 playoff against Tebow and the broncos?

 

[Biscuits]

**** those guys. **** is infuriating.

 

[SFbayCane]

For all intents and purposes it's a conscious decision to cede 4 yards every single down so long as you don't burn us for 30 which seems absolutely insane but I'm not sure what other conclusion can be drawn when you watch games and see a breakdown like the one above.

You see this at the high school level a lot when smartly coached defensive teams, really mature programs, are playing offenses whose programs have gone to the spread but don't have the precision, consistency, and most importantly patience to take the 4 yard chunks. Inevitably those offenses lose patience, start chunking it deep, and/or make mistakes, playing into what the defense is designed to stop. That's where this defensive mentality flourishes and is at it's best - against poorly coached, inefficient high school offenses. You are 100% not trying to dictate to or press the offense, your entire success hinges on them making mistakes. That's been said many times, but Lu illustrated it perfectly.

Ive been saying this for two years now. These guys are penn state, circa 1986. Their whole defensive approach depends on the QB making a big mistake. That's why it works on inferior teams and fails miserably against good ones. Its like every week they expect Vinnie to toss five picks in order for them to win. Times are different now. HS Qb's grow in 7 on 7 summer leagues, have private tutors to teach them how to disect defenses, etc.