Off-Topic FIU law ranked ahead of UM law

[BeachCanes]

FIU jumped like 30+ in the rankings. With tuition costs at UM being so high, it’ll be interesting to see what happens down the line.

 

[Fluffhead]

FIU jumped like 30+ in the rankings. With tuition costs at UM being so high, it’ll be interesting to see what happens down the line.

The same thing that’s happened for the last 15 years. Raise tuition, have turnover at key positions across the board, lack any vision, fail to provide value to students outside of the top 10-20%,and fail to capitalize on Miami becoming a major legal hub.

 

[Cane4life18]

FIU jumped like 30+ in the rankings. With tuition costs at UM being so high, it’ll be interesting to see what happens down the line.

FIU has been whooping UM for the past few years. FIU has a better law school than UM, UF and FSU. >70% bar pass rate is the norm for FIU. UM has been struggling to reach >55%. UM scored below 50% pass rate recently.

UM has to do something with the tuition cost. I think tuition cost is limiting the type of student that can attend a school like UM.

This coming school year is projected to cost 86-88k for a full year. That's ridiculous. I know campus is going through wide spread renovations but that's too much. I graduated in 2018 and tuition cost were 56k for a full year. In a couple of years it will cost 100k per year for a undergrad degree. That's called digging an early financial grave for most people.

 

[rustywalkedaway]

And, just maybe, look at the variables actually used in calculating whatever ranking system you are using. Rankings are simple; they are just products of inputs. Those inputs may, or may not, address things important to those using the rankings. But the users don't usually pay attention to the methodology.

Example: https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/articles/law-schools-methodology

 

[Fluffhead]

And, just maybe, look at the variables actually used in calculating whatever ranking system you are using. Rankings are simple, they are just a product of inputs. Those may, or may not, address things important to those using the rankings. But the users don't usually pay attention to the methodology.

Example: https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/articles/law-schools-methodology

Sure but the reality is big law very much has paid attention to it and T-14 has been a thing for years. Do I think the emphasis is waning? Sure. Do I think you will have a better chance of going Big Law out of UM than FIU (if that is what you want)? Sure. Do I think that, as a UM law alum, it is a pretty **** ROI and the school needs to do way, way better in job placement and recruiting? 100%.

 

[rustywalkedaway]

Sure but the reality is big law very much has paid attention to it and T-14 has been a thing for years. Do I think the emphasis is waning? Sure. Do I think you will have a better chance of going Big Law out of UM than FIU (if that is what you want)? Sure. Do I think that, as a UM law alum, it is a pretty **** ROI and the school needs to do way, way better in job placement and recruiting? 100%.

That was brutal. The fact that you refer to "big law" shows how out of touch you are. Do some real research and don't default to the perspective of 20 years ago.

 

[Fluffhead]

That was brutal. The fact that you refer to "big law" shows how out of touch you are. Do some real research and don't default to the perspective of 20 years ago.

I acknowledge that is not what everyone wants and used it as a broader description, since they were really only useful for the top of the class. They were terrible in connecting students with practice areas that were better suited for smaller practices and local firms in general. My biggest issue with them, ironically, was career services completely ignoring anything but that and not seeing that attorneys were valued by accounting firms, investment banks, real estate, etc., forgetting their lack

 

[ben]

for those in the know, what was the Tony Varona story? Not fund raising? or was there more to it?

 

[No_Fly_Zone]

Sure but the reality is big law very much has paid attention to it and T-14 has been a thing for years. Do I think the emphasis is waning? Sure. Do I think you will have a better chance of going Big Law out of UM than FIU (if that is what you want)? Sure. Do I think that, as a UM law alum, it is a pretty **** ROI and the school needs to do way, way better in job placement and recruiting? 100%.

I am not certain that is accurate anymore. 12-15 years ago, sure. But more recently, I'd bet the JDs graduating in the top 10% from FIU are about as likely as those in the top 10% from UM to get hired at an AmLaw100 firm or federal or state appellate clerkship.

 

[Fluffhead]

I am not certain that is accurate anymore. 12-15 years ago, sure. But more recently, I'd bet the JDs graduating in the top 10% from FIU are about as likely as those in the top 10% from UM to get hired at an AmLaw100 firm or federal or state appellate clerkship.

I can't speak to that. I'd also caveat that may be the case in Miami but I would doubt that is the case nationally if for no reason other than Miami is a more national school with a larger alumni footprint throughout. However, that is complete conjecture.

 

[Brains]

I am not certain that is accurate anymore. 12-15 years ago, sure. But more recently, I'd bet the JDs graduating in the top 10% from FIU are about as likely as those in the top 10% from UM to get hired at an AmLaw100 firm or federal or state appellate clerkship.

I'd say you have very little shot of going to "big law" out of either UM or FIU, lol. I also think we might know this.

 

[Brains]

It's very strange to go up 30 spots in the rankings, so I'd like to know how that happened.

Rankings aside, FIU has taken the correct approach of preparing its students for the bar. UM, UF, and FSU do no such thing, and it is robbery of the student base in my opinion.

All that said, I studied for the bar for 10 days, and seriously for 4, so I'm somewhat mystified as to how unprepared these test takers are, even left to their own devices.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

It's very strange to go up 30 spots in the rankings, so I'd like to know how that happened.

Rankings aside, FIU has taken the correct approach of preparing its students for the bar. UM, UF, and FSU do no such thing, and it is robbery of the student base in my opinion.

All that said, I studied for the bar for 10 days, and seriously for 4, so I'm somewhat mystified as to how unprepared these test takers are, even left to their own devices.

Yeah, the "30-spot increase" is incredibly suspect.

You don't EVER get such a sudden increase in things like "reputational" factors, which are very slow to move.

So either some numerical component changed (number of applications spiked higher, or class-size decreased) or the algorithm changed (decreased emphasis on reputational factors, increased weighting of numerical factors).

There is truly no other rational explanation.

 

[Brains]

Yeah, the "30-spot increase" is incredibly suspect.

You don't EVER get such a sudden increase in things like "reputational" factors, which are very slow to move.

So either some numerical component changed (number of applications spiked higher, or class-size decreased) or the algorithm changed (decreased emphasis on reputational factors, increased weighting of numerical factors).

There is truly no other rational explanation.

Seems really weird to me. I've seen 30-spot drops, such as when a school is going rupt, but a 30-spot gain? Makes no sense to me.

 

[No_Fly_Zone]

It's very strange to go up 30 spots in the rankings, so I'd like to know how that happened.

Rankings aside, FIU has taken the correct approach of preparing its students for the bar. UM, UF, and FSU do no such thing, and it is robbery of the student base in my opinion.

All that said, I studied for the bar for 10 days, and seriously for 4, so I'm somewhat mystified as to how unprepared these test takers are, even left to their own devices.

Yeah, the "30-spot increase" is incredibly suspect.

You don't EVER get such a sudden increase in things like "reputational" factors, which are very slow to move.

So either some numerical component changed (number of applications spiked higher, or class-size decreased) or the algorithm changed (decreased emphasis on reputational factors, increased weighting of numerical factors).

There is truly no other rational explanation.

Change in methodology. Basically, US News increased the weight of more objective performance benchmarks (e.g., Bar passage rate, employment 10-months from graduation, and ultimate employment), while decreasing the weight of some of the more subjective components (e.g., reputation among judges/practitioners).

 

[No_Fly_Zone]

I can't speak to that. I'd also caveat that may be the case in Miami but I would doubt that is the case nationally if for no reason other than Miami is a more national school with a larger alumni footprint throughout. However, that is complete conjecture.

FIU Law is definitely a more regional law school than UM Law (at least for the time being). But, any difference when it comes to AmLaw100 jobs outside South Florida is negligible. Absent connections and/or graduating the top 10 in your law school class, a graduate of either school has a near-zero chance at Big Law outside of South Florida.

Think of it this way... would you trade a 2% chance at "Big Law" for a .5% chance at "Big Law" along with a ~15% better chance of passing the Florida Bar and ~$39K less tuition per year (in-state; still about $25K less compared to UM Law for out of state residents), in particular where the average salaries 10 months out are pretty close outside the "Big Law" associates?

 

[DerpaDerp]

LOL $88k for a degree you can get elsewhere for 50-75% less and get a better chance of passing the bar.
Or equal to it. 50% passing is horrible.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

50% passing rate? Wow, that’s pathetic. UM law needs to cut tuition by half and git rid of the woke law professors who can’t teach worth a dam.

People need to stop with this bullcrap about bar passage rate.

Bar passage rate is on the individual students, not the school. Miami teaches black-letter law, not "state law", and it's up to each student to ******* take a bar review course. On top of that, a lot of the higher-achieving UM Law grads end up taking a non-Florida bar exam.

Most multistate subjects are taught in your first year of law school. The state-specific portion is something you should prepare for yourself, there's not some magic set of courses in second-year and third-year that will prepare you soooo much better than a bar prep course.

Ridiculous.

 

[No_Fly_Zone]

People need to stop with this bullcrap about bar passage rate.

Bar passage rate is on the individual students, not the school. Miami teaches black-letter law, not "state law", and it's up to each student to ******* take a bar review course. On top of that, a lot of the higher-achieving UM Law grads end up taking a non-Florida bar exam.

Most multistate subjects are taught in your first year of law school. The state-specific portion is something you should prepare for yourself, there's not some magic set of courses in second-year and third-year that will prepare you soooo much better than a bar prep course.

Ridiculous.

Strongly disagree. It's law school. The point is to prepare students to practice law. You can't practice law without passing the Bar. Period.

And blaming the students? No. That's a policy problem. If UM law is drawing subpar candidates, what does that say about the law school? At some point, people need to produce up to the brand or the brand suffers. And if they are struggling through their 1L year, then boot them from your law school. The ugly truth is grade inflation and increased class sizes has torpedoed UM law's bottom 1/3.

Two decades ago many of those kids would have been processed out. Today, they graduate with a 2.6 GPA and fail the Bar.

 

[TheOriginalCane]

Strongly disagree. It's law school. The point is to prepare students to practice law. You can't practice law without passing the Bar. Period.

And blaming the students? No. That's a policy problem. If UM law is drawing subpar candidates, what does that say about the law school? At some point, people need to produce up to the brand or the brand suffers. And if they are struggling through their 1L year, then boot them from your law school. The ugly truth is grade inflation and increased class sizes has torpedoed UM law's bottom 1/3.

Two decades ago many of those kids would have been processed out. Today, they graduate with a 2.6 GPA and fail the Bar.

Did you go to law school? Because the point of law school is not to teach to the Bar Exam.

A couple of things. First, you really only have 2 "elective" years to take specific courses (2L and 3L, as your first year is pretty much set with standard required subjects like Contracts, Torts, Property, Civ Pro, etc.).

And, say, the Florida Bar has a grouping of subjects that COULD be tested on the Florida portion of the Bar Exam, like Trusts & Estates and Domestic Relations (courses that not everyone chooses to take as a 2L or 3L). It is impossible to take all the classes that "could" be tested on the Florida Bar exam, particularly if you take other classes like Litigation Skills (also an important thing to study) or do a Clinical Placement (kinda like an internship).

The bottom line is that you MUST study some subjects that you did not, in fact, take a corresponding course for. If you were prepping for the Bar exclusively, you'd need a fourth and/or fifth year of law school.

And I'm not sure what you're getting at with "subpar candidates". And I'm definitely not sure what "grade inflation" has to do with the Bar Exam. As a poor unfortunate soul who was on the VERY LAST FULL 1L YEAR OF THE C-CURVE AT MIAMI, I can tell you that the C-curve didn't make me any better or worse on the Bar Exam (the year after me got to dump the C-curve mid-year, and then the year after that there was no C-curve at UM Law).

Increased class size? I can partially get with that. But let's not forget, the Bar Review courses themselves have long been held in huge classes and/or "videotape" (or whatever other technology has developed into).

I don't know, maybe these graduates are not working hard enough, doing enough practice questions, and making the best decisions with their time during the summer. There's very little reason to FAIL the bar exam. No matter if you graduate from Harvard or the #200 law school in the country. You have to refresh yourself on 1L courses (most of the multistate portion) and cover yourself on all the state-specific subjects that might be tested.

Even when you go to the University of Florida...not every single class is "here's the correct answer to this issue for when you eventually take the Florida Bar exam". Do UF and F$U teach a bit MORE "Florida law" than UM? Absolutely. But UM has always had a Florida Con Law course in the catalog, if anyone is so worried about passing the Florida Bar, they can get a nice jump by taking THAT class.

But the reality is that most people want to take a few classes in the subject areas that they WANT to practice in. Yes, I took Federal Income Tax when I was at UM Law. No, it is not a subject tested on either the Multistate OR the Florida-specific Bar exam. Oh well.

It's not the job of the law school to teach the bar exam. It CAN BE HELPFUL for the law school to provide the facilities and the atmosphere for recent graduates to use during the summer while they prepare for the bar exam.

But you have to take a bar exam prep course. You have to do as much as you need to do to prep. If you need to do thousands of practice questions for the Multistate, do it. If you have to write dozens of practice essay questions for the Florida portion, do it.

Whatever it takes. And UM is not to blame, at least on the course offerings. Maybe UM could do more to help out in the summertime. Somehow I managed to get things done even as the whole law school was being rebuilt.

Excuses. Lots of law grads today are gaping pussies.