forums

Domino Effect (Conversation Thread)

Advertisement
Now you made me go back and watch that game.
Man...so many things had to go wrong for Miami to lose that game...

smdh

I think the turn would have happened anyway. All schools go through it after a period of success. 4 and 5 stars go to a program just expecting to win instead of putting in the necessary work.
Before anyone responds with that goofy "Alabama says hello", they're gifted with the by far best coach in CFB.
Even so, the Tides fortunes will turn.
Soon.
 
MainLineCane said:
Hate to rain on the "Butch was a Gawd" parade BUT I'll take the hit.

I lived thru the Butch coaching period and recall that he left much to be desired as a game day coach. Great recruiter unquestioned and done under some extreme circumstances without a doubt, but as a gameday coach Meh!!

IF there were any Miami coach that I'd play "woulda, coulda, shoulda" with, in my mind , that would unquestionably be our greatest HOF Coach Howard Schnellenberger. He was truly legendary. He started the "State of Miami" recruiting theme and instilled the "Refuse to Lose" play ethic that served us so well over the years. Before him we never knew the heights we could rise to and most importantly, he continued his program development by taking a invisible Louisville program into a force, and after that turning FAU into a winner. He was truly a coach who could turn any program into a winner.

After Schnelly, I put the legendary Jimmy Johnson, who proved his Championship coaching chops both here and at Dallas. Some may not recall that Dallas was going thru a losing spell before JJ.

While I liked Butch a lot, and was glad he was here when he was, I realized his limitations as a great coach as he completely failed to meet his follow up challenges at Cleveland and at UNC. We'll see how he does at FIU. Maybe there he can get his mojo back.

So sure if we had to play "What IF" with any Miami coaches, ...What IF regrets go a lot further with me, if we're looking at us possibly repeatedly winning N.C.'s, they go a lot further with our actual championship winning coaches Schnelly or Johnson, both of whom left us too soon. Now if we'd stayed under either of those two, Bama would be known as just another stepping stone on our way to an unending wave of Championships.
Click to expand...

Not to be a dyck, but didn’t Butch inherit a near death penalty Miami team and go undefeated in bowl games? Isn’t Butch the last coach to lead the Browns to the playoffs? Didn’t Butch make a basketball school competitive in football?

I mean, Butch leaving still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but let’s not act like he didn’t resurrect our program from the ashes and put us on auto pilot w his recruits.

I hold Schnelly in the highest regards. I don’t care if Richt wins 4 titles here; Schnelly provided the blue print for what we know Miami to be today. Jimmy should’ve had 3 titles here if not for the choke job (paid off job) by Testaverde in 86 and the refs ******** us on Cleveland’s TD in 88.

I believe if Butch stayed, it would’ve been curtains for a long time. Sure there would be some coaches winning a title here and there, but no doubt in my mind, we would be dominanting the conversation for contenders of the national title dang near every year.
 
IMO, the single most destructive entity in UM history was the school administration who jerked Butch around to the extent that he circled back to Carmen Policy (after he had already declined the Browns’ job) to see if the position was still open. The administration then decided to neuter the program and strip UM of everything that made us UM. That’s not even including the administration running Jimmy out of town, but we still had some good years after that.
 
Winning at the highest levels is hard man.

Butch maintaining this program at a elite level the way this game has changed in the last decade or so is a massive assumption.

Everyone is on TV every week. Recruiting pressure from schools outside of Florida has never been greater. Our facilities became a joke. Our stadium sucked. The arms race exploded and before the recent financial windfall from TV and Adidas we were at a huge disadvantage.

Butch, who I love, was going to leave whether we gave him a new contract or not. Maybe a year later, two at most.

Today we finally have equal footing financially, a coach without further aspirations, a clean program, a beautiful state of the art stadium and on campus facilities to rival nearly any other program. Imo this puts us in position for long term success at an elite level for the first time in decades.
 
If Butch stayed we would have won at least 3 more naty’s. We have always had the talent we just needed a coach that would have kept these kids focused and held them accountable. See what a good coach can do with the same kids that lost 5-7 games a year under Golden.
 
Rellyrell said:
Not to be a dyck, but didn’t Butch inherit a near death penalty Miami team and go undefeated in bowl games? Isn’t Butch the last coach to lead the Browns to the playoffs? Didn’t Butch make a basketball school competitive in football?

I mean, Butch leaving still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but let’s not act like he didn’t resurrect our program from the ashes and put us on auto pilot w his recruits.

I hold Schnelly in the highest regards. I don’t care if Richt wins 4 titles here; Schnelly provided the blue print for what we know Miami to be today. Jimmy should’ve had 3 titles here if not for the choke job (paid off job) by Testaverde in 86 and the refs ******** us on Cleveland’s TD in 88.

I believe if Butch stayed, it would’ve been curtains for a long time. Sure there would be some coaches winning a title here and there, but no doubt in my mind, we would be dominanting the conversation for contenders of the national title dang near every year.
Click to expand...


No Dyck offense taken Rellyrell. We're just having a conversation.

Suffice it to say, there are good reasons why someone with a supposedly "legendary, walk on water" past wasn't hired by us and others after being dropped by UNC when he was available. Without a doubt, every Miami fan appreciates what Butch did for us. You cannot fairly say that I denied that he did not not revive the program. I don't say resurrect because the program wasn't dead. Hampered yes, but far from dead.

It just seems that as time passes the reality of his accomplishments as a coach seems to have IMO grown far out of proportion to the actual facts. For the most part I agree with you BUT for a start here's where I differ. After winning 4 National Championships in football we were far from being thought of as a basketball school.

The probation cost us one bowl game, 13 scholarships the 1st year and 11 scholarships the next, along with a two year TV ban. Harsh sure, but certainly not a death sentence for any good program. Yes without a doubt really tough sanctions and, as usual, it was harsher for than most because we're Miami. But also remember that Davis inherited a 10-2 team from Erickson that included 23 Jr's. So the cupboard wasn't bare. Also our brand was still very strong having recent history of 4 NC's. The loss of 24 scholarships over two years certainly hurt short term depth but Freshman seldom played then. Fortunately, we took the loss of a bowl early so there was still major incentive to play well. So in short, this was far from being an impossible situation. Difficult? Yes without a doubt.

Here's where I do give BD the most credit. Despite the scholarship reductions we still got top players. He and his staff recruited very well. People forget how great a staff Butch quickly gathered. He did not recruit those players alone..Chudzinski, Shannon, Mark, Soldinger, C. Johnson, Pagano were all good recruiters and yes I realize that the HC gets the credit. Without a doubt, he and his staff recruited one of the best teams ever and did it under some duress.

My main issue with Butch ,as I said before, was him as a game day coach. Some may only remember the cheers and end result...and act as if all was rosy but I also remember the mobs calling for his head. Why?? FSU owned us 1-5 during his tenure. VT owned us during his tenure 1-5. We lost to East Carolina, YES East Carolina twice. Syracuse beat us twice , once 66-13. There were other setbacks, and while I remember the good , I also cannot gloss over his shortcomings and pretend he was coaching perfection. I can excuse 2 of the FSU losses because they had more quality players with us being short handed. But for all the others, mostly we were continually out-coached.

Yes without a doubt he was undefeated in bowl games with us, Since then at UNC and at FIU he was 1-3. As for your point about taking Cleveland to the playoffs Definitely TRUE!! But he followed up that 9-7 season with horrific 5-11 and 3-8 records before he was let go.

Listen, as I said, I liked Butch and certainly wish he had stayed. I definitely admire and appreciate his helping us to have gathered the greatest college football team that EVER played, while getting us through our probation...all of which makes that accomplishment even greater. Having lived through his tenure I'm also realistic enough to acknowledge the actual circumstances and his shortcomings. I am not diminishing what he accomplished here

The point of my post was that I regret two other coaches that IMO were better leaving us more. Very few coaches can measure up to Schnelly and Jimmy, who also had their faults. That's not a knock on Butch and what he accomplished here. There is no shame in being the 3rd or 4th best coach that the greatest college football program on this planet ever had. In conclusion, while I appreciate and admire what Butch did for us, I just don't view it as the ever growing, flawless, "woulda, coulda, shoulda", local sports legend it seems to have become.

Lets just agree that we both wished that he had stayed. But the simple fact was, with the minuscule $$ Miami paid coaches at that time, it was only a matter of time before he or any good coach we had would have left for greener$$ pastures
 
Last edited:
MainLineCane said:
No Dyck offense taken Rellyrell. We're just having a conversation.

Suffice it to say, there are good reasons why someone with a supposedly "legendary, walk on water" past wasn't hired by us and others after being dropped by UNC when he was available. Without a doubt, every Miami fan appreciates what Butch did for us. You cannot fairly say that I denied that he did not not revive the program. I don't say resurrect because the program wasn't dead. Hampered yes, but far from dead.

It just seems that as time passes the reality of his accomplishments as a coach seems to have IMO grown far out of proportion to the actual facts. For the most part I agree with you BUT for a start here's where I differ. After winning 4 National Championships in football we were far from being thought of as a basketball school.

The probation cost us one bowl game, 13 scholarships the 1st year and 11 scholarships the next, along with a two year TV ban. Harsh sure, but certainly not a death sentence for any good program. Yes without a doubt really tough sanctions and, as usual, it was harsher for than most because we're Miami. But also remember that Davis inherited a 10-2 team from Erickson that included 23 Jr's. So the cupboard wasn't bare. Also our brand was still very strong having recent history of 4 NC's. The loss of 24 scholarships over two years certainly hurt short term depth but Freshman seldom played then. Fortunately, we took the loss of a bowl early so there was still major incentive to play well. So in short, this was far from being an impossible situation. Difficult Yes without a doubt.

Here's where I do give BD the most credit. Despite the scholarship reductions we still got top players. He and his staff recruited very well. People forget how great a staff Butch quickly gathered. He did not recruit those players alone..Chudzinski, Shannon, Mark, Soldinger, C. Johnson, Pagano were all good recruiters and yes I realize that the HC gets the credit. Without a doubt, he and his staff recruited one of the best teams ever and did it under some duress.

My main issue with Butch ,as I said before, was him as a game day coach. Some may only remember the cheers and end result...and act as if all was rosy but I also remember the mobs calling for his head. Why?? FSU owned us 1-5 during his tenure. VT owned us during his tenure 1-5. We lost to East Carolina, YES East Carolina twice. Syracuse beat us twice , once 66-13. There were other setbacks, and while I remember the good , I also cannot gloss over his shortcomings and pretend he was coaching perfection. I can excuse 2 of the FSU losses because they had more quality players with us being short handed. But for all the others, mostly we were continually out-coached.

Yes without a doubt he was undefeated in bowl games with us, Since then at UNC and at FIU he was 1-3. As for your point about taking Cleveland to the playoffs Definitely TRUE!! But he followed up that 9-7 season with horrific 5-11 and 3-8 records before he was let go.

Listen, as I said, I liked Butch and certainly wish he had stayed. I definitely admire and appreciate his helping us to have gathered the greatest college football team that EVER played, while getting us through our probation...all of which makes that accomplishment even greater. Having lived through his tenure I'm also realistic enough to acknowledge the actual circumstances and his shortcomings. I am not diminishing what he accomplished here

The point of my post was that I regret two other coaches that IMO were better leaving us more. Very few coaches can measure up to Schnelly and Jimmy, who also had their faults. That's not a knock on Butch and what he accomplished here. There is no shame in being the 3rd or 4th best coach that the greatest college football program on this planet ever had. In conclusion, while I appreciate and admire what Butch did for us, I just don't view it as the ever growing, flawless, "woulda, coulda, shoulda", local sports legend it seems to have become.

Lets just agree that we both wished that he had stayed. But the simple fact was, with the minuscule $$ Miami paid coaches at that time, it was only a matter of time before he or any good coach we had would have left for greener$$ pastures
Click to expand...

Those are all fair and accurate points, actually. Mind you, I was rather young when the whole “off w our heads” calling came from the parroting media, so the only thing I can really recall was crying like a baby (simply b/c I was a kid) when we blew that game against Nebraska in 94 and then all the crap that was said against Miami shortly thereafter.

I definitely remember the aero plane flying in frustration over his game day coaching. And at the end of the day, ur right, he would’ve left regardless. But it was fun seeing us rise from the ashes though...and til this day, I call Oklahoma paper champions from 00 b/c no way they would’ve won had we not got screwed by the BCS.
 
Advertisement
Rellyrell said:
Those are all fair and accurate points, actually. Mind you, I was rather young when the whole “off w our heads” calling came from the parroting media, so the only thing I can really recall was crying like a baby (simply b/c I was a kid) when we blew that game against Nebraska in 94 and then all the crap that was said against Miami shortly thereafter.

I definitely remember the aero plane flying in frustration over his game day coaching. And at the end of the day, ur right, he would’ve left regardless. But it was fun seeing us rise from the ashes though...and til this day, I call Oklahoma paper champions from 00 b/c no way they would’ve won had we not got screwed by the BCS.
Click to expand...

100% TRUE
 
Not only would Butch have had to stay, but the admin would have had to conform to his demands about upping the program's budget. Finances were the ultimate killer of our program. Spending went up astronomically in our rival programs after our 5th national title.
 
What if the 2000 team didn't get hosed out of the Nat'l Title game and beat OU, rather than f$u playing OU?

Butchy has a title in hand going into '01.
 
Advertisement
Maybe you get a different outcome ... slightly. I think Coker hangs around longer with back-to-back titles. Harder to get rid of a guy with 2 NT's no matter how poorly he is doing. It is entirely possible that the 2nd NT causes people to look at the staff differently and some of the assistants get poached before he sinks the ship. In that case, maybe Shannon gets an offer/upgrade at a different program and he is not around to get the job when Coker goes down with the ship. BUT, given everything we know about the administration, they still would have found a way to ***** up the post-Coker hire. That's kind of what they do ... see the Morris to Dimare plan.
 
JG13 said:
Same trajectory IMO...maybe an extra year for Coker. He couldn't sustain that run.
Click to expand...

Coker would've gotten more than "another year". It **** near took an act of God to get him canned in 2006; a 7-6 run, the on-field brawl with FIU, the cloud of Bryan Pata's murder (and the losing streak that followed), et al.

Had Miami been properly crowned in 2002, you're talking about a two-time national champion coach who's win-streak would've reached 32-0 before suffering his first career head coaching loss (November 1st, 2003 at Virginia Tech.)

Coker's record would've been:

2001 — 12-0, National Champions (Rose Bowl - Nebraska)
2002 — 13-0, National Champions (Fiesta Bowl - Ohio State)
2003 — 11-2, Orange Bowl Champs (Florida State)
2004 — 9-3, Peach Bowl Champs (Florida)
2005 — 9-3, smoked in the Peach Bowl (LSU)

Two-time national champ with a BCS berth, 4-1 bowl record and 54-8 record before that 7-6 season in 2006 ... he'd have been given another go-around as that's what a second title would've earned him. (Same reason Miami baseball has been saddled with Jim Morris as long as it has. One-time national champion doesn't have the same ring as two.)

Coker might've been gone after 2007 or 2008, which then changes the trajectory regarding if / when Randy Shannon took over, how long he stuck around and who would've replaced him. (Al Golden arguably never would've made it to Miami and would've wound up somewhere else as he'd peaked at Temple.)

That also means Miami arguably wouldn't have been in position to land Mark Richt late 2015 when Georgia canned him. We're talking about something akin to a parallel universe for Canes football as a Fiesta Bowl win would've made it impossible for UM to can Coker after the 2005 season. The sting of that game still lingered four years later—just as the euphoria of back-to-back titles would've lingered, as well.
 
dudenate said:
What if the 2000 team didn't get hosed out of the Nat'l Title game and beat OU, rather than f$u playing OU?

Butchy has a title in hand going into '01.
Click to expand...

Had Miami won it all in 2000, you wouldn't have seen Ed Reed and Bryant McKinnie return in 2001, as both were dead-set on turning pro before Butch sold them on coming back for some unfinished business.

Two key players on that 2001 team ... who knows how those games would've turned out. Specifically Boston College, which Reed saved—as well as all the help McKinnie provided for Dorsey's blindside.

The only guarantee; Miami would've hung 24+ on that overrated Oklahoma squad that eked by Florida State, 13-2.
 
MainLineCane said:
Hate to rain on the "Butch was a Gawd" parade BUT I'll take the hit.

I lived thru the Butch coaching period and recall that he left much to be desired as a game day coach. Great recruiter unquestioned and done under some extreme circumstances without a doubt, but as a gameday coach Meh!!

IF there were any Miami coach that I'd play "woulda, coulda, shoulda" with, in my mind , that would unquestionably be our greatest HOF Coach Howard Schnellenberger. He was truly legendary. He started the "State of Miami" recruiting theme and instilled the "Refuse to Lose" play ethic that served us so well over the years. Before him we never knew the heights we could rise to and most importantly, he continued his program development by taking a invisible Louisville program into a force, and after that turning FAU into a winner. He was truly a coach who could turn any program into a winner.

After Schnelly, I put the legendary Jimmy Johnson, who proved his Championship coaching chops both here and at Dallas. Some may not recall that Dallas was going thru a losing spell before JJ.

While I liked Butch a lot, and was glad he was here when he was, I realized his limitations as a great coach as he completely failed to meet his follow up challenges at Cleveland and at UNC. We'll see how he does at FIU. Maybe there he can get his mojo back.

So sure if we had to play "What IF" with any Miami coaches, ...What IF regrets go a lot further with me, if we're looking at us possibly repeatedly winning N.C.'s, they go a lot further with our actual championship winning coaches Schnelly or Johnson, both of whom left us too soon. Now if we'd stayed under either of those two, Bama would be known as just another stepping stone on our way to an unending wave of Championships.
Click to expand...
Both Schnelly and Jimmy cut their teeth at other programs before coming to Miami. Butch walked into a ****** death penalty type of situation, and despite having no HC experience, pulled us out of it. He was learning how to be a HC, and he got better each year. He was also willing to let coordinators who weren't panning out go. And finally, nobody, not even Richt, recruits nearly as well as Butch. I won't predict the future, but Davis would have had us on top for many years if he had stayed.

Our biggest issue, and the biggest reason for our fall, was our quarterback recruiting. After that I'd say offensive line. But our failure with Berlin and Kyle Wright and Robert Marve and Jacory Harris held back. Heck, we're still having huge quarterback issues. Remember the 80's/early 90's Canes, the one position they had on lockdown was quarterback.
 
Back
Top