Defensive Holding penalty (the play where D'Eriq got hurt)

TheOriginalCane

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OK, someone brought this up on a nuked thread.

When D'Eriq was injured, the defense was called for holding, yet we had to repeat second down. Apparently, the college rules differ for whether the play was a running play or a passing play (which is almost always when you see defensive holding called).

If I am reading the NCAA rules correctly, defensive holding is an automatic first down for PASSING plays (probably 99.99% of all the defensive holding calls I've ever seen called) and NOT an automatic first down for RUSHING plays:



Holding and Use of Hands or Arms: Defense

ARTICLE 4.
a. Defensive players may use hands and arms to push, pull, ward off or lift offensive players:
1. When attempting to reach the runner.
2. Who are obviously attempting to block them.
b. A defensive player legally may use his hands or arms to ward off or block an opponent in an attempt to reach a loose ball (Rule 9-1-5, Exceptions 3 and 4 and Rule 9-3-6, Exceptions 3 and 5):
1. During a backward pass, fumble or kick that he is eligible to touch.
2. During any forward pass that crossed the neutral zone and has been touched by any player or official.
c. When making no attempt to get at the ball or the runner, defensive players must comply with Article 3, paragraphs a and b above.
d. Defensive players may not use hands and arms to tackle, hold or otherwise illegally obstruct an opponent other than a runner.
e. Defensive players may ward off or legally block an eligible pass receiver until that player occupies the same yard line as the defender or until the opponent could not possibly block him. Continuous contact is illegal (A.R. 9-3-5-I).
PENALTY [c-e]—10 or 15 yards [S38, S42, S43 or S45].



Use of Hands or Arms by Defense: Passing Downs

ARTICLE 5.
During a legal forward pass play in which the pass crosses the neutral zone, if before the pass is touched there is a contact foul by Team B beyond the neutral zone against an eligible receiver (other than pass interference), the penalty includes an automatic first down.
PENALTY—10 or 15 yards and automatic first down if the first down is not in conflict with other rules [S38].
 
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Glad I wasn't the only one that was confused by this. Weird rule because it was a pass play that turned in to scramble.

Yes. That's actually a great point, as defensive holding of a WR might force a QB to run.

EDIT: Goddammit, I just watched the play AGAIN. The penalty was on #0. He held...Dee Wiggins trying to run a route. I think the refs botched this one, it SHOULD have been an automatic first down.

Wiggins was on the left side of the line. King rolled out to the right side. There is no way in **** that #0 held Wiggins on a "running play". He held Wiggins as Wiggins attempted to go downfield for a pass. It seems ridiculous to differentiate by saying "well, if King threw an incompletion, then Miami gets a first down". Or what if King was sacked, would Miami have gotten a first down? But because he scrambled for POSITIVE yardage, Miami doesn't get a first down?

WTF?
 
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OK, someone brought this up on a nuked thread.

When D'Eriq was injured, the defense was called for holding, yet we had to repeat second down. Apparently, the college rules differ for whether the play was a running play or a passing play (which is almost always when you see defensive holding called).

If I am reading the NCAA rules correctly, defensive holding is an automatic first down for PASSING plays (probably 99.99% of all the defensive holding calls I've ever seen called) and NOT an automatic first down for RUSHING plays:



Holding and Use of Hands or Arms: Defense

ARTICLE 4.
a. Defensive players may use hands and arms to push, pull, ward off or lift offensive players:
1. When attempting to reach the runner.
2. Who are obviously attempting to block them.
b. A defensive player legally may use his hands or arms to ward off or block an opponent in an attempt to reach a loose ball (Rule 9-1-5, Exceptions 3 and 4 and Rule 9-3-6, Exceptions 3 and 5):
1. During a backward pass, fumble or kick that he is eligible to touch.
2. During any forward pass that crossed the neutral zone and has been touched by any player or official.
c. When making no attempt to get at the ball or the runner, defensive players must comply with Article 3, paragraphs a and b above.
d. Defensive players may not use hands and arms to tackle, hold or otherwise illegally obstruct an opponent other than a runner.
e. Defensive players may ward off or legally block an eligible pass receiver until that player occupies the same yard line as the defender or until the opponent could not possibly block him. Continuous contact is illegal (A.R. 9-3-5-I).
PENALTY [c-e]—10 or 15 yards [S38, S42, S43 or S45].



Use of Hands or Arms by Defense: Passing Downs

ARTICLE 5.
During a legal forward pass play in which the pass crosses the neutral zone, if before the pass is touched there is a contact foul by Team B beyond the neutral zone against an eligible receiver (other than pass interference), the penalty includes an automatic first down.
PENALTY—10 or 15 yards and automatic first down if the first down is not in conflict with other rules [S38].

Thank you for this. Wayyy too complicated. This should be one of those rules that need to reassessed, and simplified. Def holding should be treated as a P.I (since technically it’s a form of P.I). 5-10 yrd penalty & an automatic first down
 
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Thank you for this. Wayyy too complicated. This should be one of those rules that need to reassessed, and simplified. Def holding should be treated as a P.I (since technically it’s a form of P.I). 5-10 yrd penalty & an automatic first down


It gets worse. Look at my "EDIT" on what really happened on that play.
 
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OK, someone brought this up on a nuked thread.

When D'Eriq was injured, the defense was called for holding, yet we had to repeat second down. Apparently, the college rules differ for whether the play was a running play or a passing play (which is almost always when you see defensive holding called).

If I am reading the NCAA rules correctly, defensive holding is an automatic first down for PASSING plays (probably 99.99% of all the defensive holding calls I've ever seen called) and NOT an automatic first down for RUSHING plays:



Holding and Use of Hands or Arms: Defense

ARTICLE 4.
a. Defensive players may use hands and arms to push, pull, ward off or lift offensive players:
1. When attempting to reach the runner.
2. Who are obviously attempting to block them.
b. A defensive player legally may use his hands or arms to ward off or block an opponent in an attempt to reach a loose ball (Rule 9-1-5, Exceptions 3 and 4 and Rule 9-3-6, Exceptions 3 and 5):
1. During a backward pass, fumble or kick that he is eligible to touch.
2. During any forward pass that crossed the neutral zone and has been touched by any player or official.
c. When making no attempt to get at the ball or the runner, defensive players must comply with Article 3, paragraphs a and b above.
d. Defensive players may not use hands and arms to tackle, hold or otherwise illegally obstruct an opponent other than a runner.
e. Defensive players may ward off or legally block an eligible pass receiver until that player occupies the same yard line as the defender or until the opponent could not possibly block him. Continuous contact is illegal (A.R. 9-3-5-I).
PENALTY [c-e]—10 or 15 yards [S38, S42, S43 or S45].



Use of Hands or Arms by Defense: Passing Downs

ARTICLE 5.
During a legal forward pass play in which the pass crosses the neutral zone, if before the pass is touched there is a contact foul by Team B beyond the neutral zone against an eligible receiver (other than pass interference), the penalty includes an automatic first down.
PENALTY—10 or 15 yards and automatic first down if the first down is not in conflict with other rules [S38].
Correct defensive holding on a pass beyond the LOS is a automatic 1st..on run plays it’s not. Which is still ambiguous because on the play King got hurt it was a pass play not a designed run. The ball wasn’t thrown but if the penalty happened against a eligible WR down the field it’s my understanding it should still be automatic first. The ball, again from my understanding does not have to actually be thrown. So I still think the refs got it wrong
 
Here's another question, in case we have any rules experts...

QB drops back to pass. The center runs 15 yards downfield. However, the QB cannot find an open receiver and eventually scrambles for positive yardage. Should there be a penalty for illegal man downfield, or is it negated by the "run"? It would seem strange to have a situation where you could send 10 players out on routes, and then just let the QB run and your "defense" is "hey, it can't be a penalty, I ran".

Might be an interesting "end-of-half/game" play. Defense only rushes 3. Offense sends 10 guys out on pass patterns. Defense gets confused as ****. QB easily avoids three 300 pound DLs who are dog-tired, and now starts running with 10 downfield blockers against 8 remaining defenders.

Interesting.
 
It gets worse. Look at my "EDIT" on what really happened on that play.

And that’s part of the rule that’s too subjective. I don’t like any rule left up to interpretation. It can’t be a chicken or egg situation. It was a “running play” b/c the WR route was impeded by a hold. Had the hold not been there, there’s a great likelihood that’s a pass.

CFB has more subjective penalties than a little bit, and it ruins the game. Forget the clauses; just have any sort of pass interference be listed as an automatic first down. If the ball is in the air....15 yards. If the ball is in the QBs hands, 5 - 10 yards....but this running v. passing b.s is weak.

The only time I can see a defensive hold not being an automatic first is if the hold is happening at the LOS on an OLmen.
 
This might’ve been the single worse officiated game I’ve seen at the college or pro level..and if it didn’t involve the canes I’d say the same..it was really bad for both sides..our were the worse
 
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Correct defensive holding on a pass beyond the LOS is a automatic 1st..on run plays it’s not. Which is still ambiguous because on the play King got hurt it was a pass play not a designed run. The ball wasn’t thrown but if the penalty happened against a eligible WR down the field it’s my understanding it should still be automatic first. The ball, again from my understanding does not have to actually be thrown. So I still think the refs got it wrong


Yeah, I agree, I had added that to my response to CB24.

And Manny/other coaches had a ****E-TON of time to argue that point, while King was down on the field.
 
Here's another question, in case we have any rules experts...

QB drops back to pass. The center runs 15 yards downfield. However, the QB cannot find an open receiver and eventually scrambles for positive yardage. Should there be a penalty for illegal man downfield, or is it negated by the "run"? It would seem strange to have a situation where you could send 10 players out on routes, and then just let the QB run and your "defense" is "hey, it can't be a penalty, I ran".

Might be an interesting "end-of-half/game" play. Defense only rushes 3. Offense sends 10 guys out on pass patterns. Defense gets confused as ****. QB easily avoids three 300 pound DLs who are dog-tired, and now starts running with 10 downfield blockers against 8 remaining defenders.

Interesting.
I’ll save you the trouble..the refs got that wrong..and it like wasn’t contested by the staff because of the distraction of kings injury
 
And that’s part of the rule that’s too subjective. I don’t like any rule left up to interpretation. It can’t be a chicken or egg situation. It was a “running play” b/c the WR route was impeded by a hold. Had the hold not been there, there’s a great likelihood that’s a pass.

CFB has more subjective penalties than a little bit, and it ruins the game. Forget the clauses; just have any sort of pass interference be listed as an automatic first down. If the ball is in the air....15 yards. If the ball is in the QBs hands, 5 - 10 yards....but this running v. passing b.s is weak.

The only time I can see a defensive hold not being an automatic first is if the hold is happening at the LOS on an OLmen.


100% correct.

I still think it was possible for the refs to get to the "correct" conclusion by noting that the hold occurred on a WR trying to run a pattern downfield. The OLs were dropping back to pass-protect, they were NOT firing forward to run-block. In no way was Wiggins trying to block #0.
 
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And that’s part of the rule that’s too subjective. I don’t like any rule left up to interpretation. It can’t be a chicken or egg situation. It was a “running play” b/c the WR route was impeded by a hold. Had the hold not been there, there’s a great likelihood that’s a pass.

CFB has more subjective penalties than a little bit, and it ruins the game. Forget the clauses; just have any sort of pass interference be listed as an automatic first down. If the ball is in the air....15 yards. If the ball is in the QBs hands, 5 - 10 yards....but this running v. passing b.s is weak.

The only time I can see a defensive hold not being an automatic first is if the hold is happening at the LOS on an OLmen.
I never thought that rule was subjective to interpretation..it was LEGAL pass set and play. Regardless of the QB breaking the Los. If the hold is against a elgible WR down the field it’s automatic first. You have to be a complete incompetent fool to think that was a designed run play..they botched it and misinterpreted the rule. And I’m sure along with numerous other calls cut ups will be sent in. Like I said regardless of it was Miami or not, that level of incompetence at that level of competition is egregious
 
I never thought that rule was subjective to interpretation..it was LEGAL pass set and play. Regardless of the QB breaking the Los. If the hold is against a elgible WR down the field it’s automatic first. You have to be a complete incompetent fool to think that was a designed run play..they botched it and misinterpreted the rule. And I’m sure along with numerous other calls cut ups will be sent in. Like I said regardless of it was Miami or not, that level of incompetence at that level of competition is egregious


Well, in all fairness, the SEC just discovered the passing game, so I can see how their refs misinterpreted...
 
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