Avery Huff

So you think we’ve been solid at evals just bad at development?

that’s just not true.

we’ve been bad at more than one thing.

edit: and your comparison set is wrong to compare to 'a majority of the players other top 15 teams have recruited.' And not just because we're not a top 15 team the past 15 years. Most top teams are better than us in part because they're better evaluators. So it makes sense that the kids they take work out better. That's not because 247 evaluated them better. You're confusing cart and horse. You haven't shown some study that 247 is generally spot on and its only UM kids who aren't panning out. I'm pretty sure that study doesn't exist. They may be okay 'on average' as a ranking system, but there's plenty of variance in the system.

I think u’re arguing a point I’ve already said. Lol.

My post was in regards to Huff & Huff alone.

My point is highlighting how incompetent we have been in all facets. So whether that’s misevaluating, player development, trying to fit square pegs in round holes from a schematic standpoint...u name it, we’ve been poor at it.

U will never hear me argue anything opposite; but for the fans saying or implying we have a “talent” issue, putting the onus on the players vs. coaches, I’m saying that’s bull chit. We recruit as a top 15 program, and perform as a bottom 25 team. 247 can’t be wrong on all of our players & right about other team’s players.
 
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I think u’re arguing a point I’ve already said. Lol.

My post was in regards to Huff & Huff alone.

My point is highlighting how incompetent we have been in all facets. So whether that’s misevaluating, player development, trying to fit square pegs in round holes from a schematic standpoint...u name it, we’ve been poor at it.

U will never hear me argue anything opposite; but for the fans saying or implying we have a “talent” issue, putting the onus on the players vs. coaches, I’m saying that’s bull chit. We recruit as a top 15 program, and perform as a bottom 25 team. 247 can’t be wrong on all of our players & right about other team’s players.
Nah, we have both a talent issue and other issues. It's been all of it. Talent isn't theoretical, it's actual. When we're rolling out a true frosh 2* kid at LT who had no other P5 offers and was 230 lbs as a HS senior, we don't just have a LT issue, we have a face plant of an OL unit. We've had roster issues all over the place. Lack of experience, lack of maturity, decent kids playing too early then leaving too early.

You're falling into the trap of thinking that just because we have coaching failures that that means we haven't also had roster issues. As I've been saying for 2 decades, we got both.
 
Avery Huff:
Per 247 - #12 OLB in the Nation ; #207 overall player in the Nation


Yet, here at Miami, he can’t grasp the playbook.

Well what about his teammate at Aquinas, Bonitto. Both similar in height & stature.
Nik Bonitto:
Per 247 - #17 OLB in the Nation ; #220 overall player in the Nation

Yet, there at Oklahoma, he’s one of the best OLBs in ALL of CFB!


So, I’m going to keep asking this ? until I get an honest, satisfying answer:

How in THEE FCK is 247 consistently wrong w/ our “blue chip” evaluations, yet 247 is “correct” on other team’s blue chip players??

I’ve now heard for the 7 yrs I’ve been on this site every excuse used to justify our recruiting failures:
1. Not enough talent (bull chit per our class rankings)

2. Misevaluated (bull chit per the # of 4 stars that’s been on this roster)

3. Guys not grasping the playbook (bull chit per our coaches & players saying the playbooks have been simple)

4. Not enough practice time (bull chit per EVERY FCKIN TEAM IN AMERICA)

5. Injuries/set backs (bull chit per EVERY FCKIN TEAM IN AMERICA)

How bout a real simple answer: continuing to hire **** poor coaches, w/ a **** poor vision of what Miami football is & should be, along w/ a **** poor S&C program that focuses on the wrong chit like “GPS MPH Tracking” which is fraudulent af.

There is absolutely no way we can continue to see blue chip guys look like blue tortilla chips class after class. It cannot continue to be any of those 5 excuses....for 10+ yrs??
PREACH!!
 
Nah, we have both a talent issue and other issues. It's been all of it. Talent isn't theoretical, it's actual. When we're rolling out a true frosh 2* kid at LT who had no other P5 offers and was 230 lbs as a HS senior, we don't just have a LT issue, we have a face plant of an OL unit. We've had roster issues all over the place. Lack of experience, lack of maturity, decent kids playing too early then leaving too early.

You're falling into the trap of thinking that just because we have coaching failures that that means we haven't also had roster issues. As I've been saying for 2 decades, we got both.

OK; reason w/ your boy:

I get the Zion take....****, we can even throw in Gaynor. But come on my g;

-Here’s our OL class since 2017 (Blue Chips Only that’s on the roster):
Donaldson - 4star OT (#11 OT in the nation, #72 overall)

Herbert - 4star OT (#25 OT in the nation, #252 overall)

Scaife - 4star OG (#5 OG in the nation, #149 overall)

Reed - 4star OG (#12 OG in the nation, #259 overall)

Rivers - 4star OT (#12 OT in the nation, #112 player overall)

Seymoure (TBD) - 4star OG (#10 OG in the nation, #162 overall)

McLaughlin (TBD) - 4star OT (#26 OT in the nation, #338 overall)

-Here’s our WR class since 2017 (Blue Chips Only):
Redding - 4star WR (#31 WR in the nation, #179 overall)

Brinson (TBD) - 4 star WR (#25 WR in the nation, #139 overall)

George (TBD) - 4 star WR (#28 WR in the nation, #170 overall)

Smith (TBD) - 4 star WR (#37 WR in the nation, #215 overall)

Payton - 4 star WR (#10 WR in the nation, #54 overall)

Pope - 4 star WR (#11 WR in the nation, #67 overall)

Harley - 4star WR (#41 WR in the nation, #307 overall)

I’m going to stop w/ these two positions b/c these are the two most scrutinized. Forget that we also recruited 4 star QBs in Perry, Williams, TVD, and now Garcia, or that we had 4 star QB Martell transfer here. It took for a 3 star transfer from a G5 school to give us any hope this season.

So are 247 wrong on all of these evals, bro? I mean, most teams would kill to have this as their headliners.
 
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OK; reason w/ your boy:

I get the Zion take....****, we can even through in Gaynor. But come on my g;

-Here’s our OL class since 2017 (Blue Chips Only that’s on the roster):
Donaldson - 4star OT (#11 OT in the nation, #72 overall)

Herbert - 4star OT (#25 OT in the nation, #252 overall)

Scaife - 4star OG (#5 OG in the nation, #149 overall)

Reed - 4star OG (#12 OG in the nation, #259 overall)

Rivers - 4star OT (#12 OT in the nation, #112 player overall)

Seymoure (TBD) - 4star OG (#10 OG in the nation, #162 overall)

McLaughlin (TBD) - 4star OT (#26 OT in the nation, #338 overall)

-Here’s our WR class since 2017 (Blue Chips Only):
Redding - 4star WR (#31 WR in the nation, #179 overall)

Brinson (TBD) - 4 star WR (#25 WR in the nation, #139 overall)

George (TBD) - 4 star WR (#28 WR in the nation, #170 overall)

Smith (TBD) - 4 star WR (#37 WR in the nation, #215 overall)

Payton - 4 star WR (#10 WR in the nation, #54 overall)

Pope - 4 star WR (#11 WR in the nation, #67 overall)

Harley - 4star WR (#41 WR in the nation, #307 overall)

I’m going to stop w/ these two positions b/c these are the two most scrutinized. Forget that we also recruited 4 star QBs in Perry, Williams, TVD, and now Garcia, or that we had 4 star QB Martell transfer here. It took for a 3 star transfer from a G5 school to give us any hope this season.

So are 247 wrong on all of these evals, bro? I mean, most teams would kill to have this as their headliners.
you’ve fallen into a logic trap. 247 isn’t some professional eval service. it’s common sense, measurable a, hype and fan news and mostly a summary of which schools are most after a kid. the entire point of saying we’re bad at evals is summed up by what you wrote and you’re asking a backwards question. 247 is right sometimes less right others. We’re unusually good at picking the kids they’re overrating ... because we stink at evals.

OL and WR are good examples of this, too. Herbert and Hillary were obviously not great recruits, despite what some services said about Herbert. Reed already quit the team once. Most
of the guys you list have never played a game for us or just hit campus this year. The two kids on your list who merit discussion imo are Scaife and Donaldson. Culture at another program might have helped donaldson control his weight but he’s a type of kid that often enough doesn’t pan out (huge with weight issues). Scaife I really thought would be good. Maybe just a tweezer, not really a tackle or a Guard. Some services listed him as a center in HS and maybe they were right. Ley point however is nothing about your list says anything to me inconsistent with we’ve sucked at OL recruiting and evals for a long time.

WR i don’t even get your point. listing kids who haven’t played here yet or who were true frosh this past year doesn’t help the discussion. We blew evals in the Pope class for sure. Harley has panned out. I’ve been critical of our WR evals for a long time.
 
Relly you gotta rethink the premise you have when you ask is 247 wrong on all these evals. Yes, obviously, on the ones we pick. But they ‘evaluate’ thousands of kids a year and we sign 24. And their ‘evals’ come with a probability interval around them. That’s the point. They’re not supposed to be right on all of them. Just on average, more or less.

That UM is picking kids who underperform their rating is a true statement and a way to describe what it means to be bad at evaluations. It doesn’t mean we don’t also suck at coaching and development. But your question only makes sense if you think this is some random process like scratch off lottery tickets where we’re supposed to win our share. I’m saying g it’s not random - what it means to be bad at evals is we’re picking the kids who are less likely to work out long run because we’re focusing on the wrong traits or not focusing on some traits we should be focused on.
 
See ball get ball. How much of a playbook you need for that.
See motion one way, oh wait do I take him or leave him, oh wait someone else came in our area, who's got him??? HUT!!!!! Busted coverage for a TD.....see ball get ball doesn't work in major college football...lol although the coaches get paid to make it easy for the player so there's probably some blame on both sides as to why he hasn't played significant minutes yet. Like DMoney said no spring hurt, because that's two springs in a row because he had to take the academic redshirt his 1st year and I don't think he was allowed to put on pads, practice etc that year. 2021 spring would be his first full off-season.
 
Relly you gotta rethink the premise you have when you ask is 247 wrong on all these evals. Yes, obviously, on the ones we pick. But they ‘evaluate’ thousands of kids a year and we sign 24. And their ‘evals’ come with a probability interval around them. That’s the point. They’re not supposed to be right on all of them. Just on average, more or less.

That UM is picking kids who underperform their rating is a true statement and a way to describe what it means to be bad at evaluations. It doesn’t mean we don’t also suck at coaching and development. But your question only makes sense if you think this is some random process like scratch off lottery tickets where we’re supposed to win our share. I’m saying g it’s not random - what it means to be bad at evals is we’re picking the kids who are less likely to work out long run because we’re focusing on the wrong traits or not focusing on some traits we should be focused on.

OK; let me step out my “logical trap” for a second. Lol.

I’ve said from the jump, 247 is not the Bible. No recruiting services is; truth be told, my first time being directly intimate w/ recruiting rating was actually basketball. My boy took me down to San Diego to go see him work as he scouted one Chase Budinger (a blast from the past.) He explained how Chase got his scores based upon a numerous amount of factors. So I get it.

However, these services provide a pretty good track record & indicator. We know that b/c the schools that typically recruit the highly rated players do pretty well, IF the infrastructure is in place (which is our biggest problem, imo).

The first thing we do is compare the amount of blue chips on the roster. Well; who determines the blue chips? Recruiting services. Lol. If not, then every kid would self declare as a blue chip. So recruiting services are pretty spot on for the most part, but of course, they are prone to mistakes.

Here’s my point going back to my Huff & Bonitto comparison;

Clearly Bonitto is a blue chip talent by both his ratings by said recruiting services & his play on the field at OU. But am I to believe Nik would be the same player here, as he is at OU? Based upon our history w/ so many guys under performing, I doubt it. Would Huff be a stud at Bama or OU? That’s debatable; but looking at history, probably a better chance. Would Pope still be looking like a HS Sr if he was at, let’s say OSU? Would Nesta still have elementary interior moves at Clemson? The fact is, my brother, I’m not so sure.

I agree w/ u on our evals, I’ve been very critical of our evals. I’ve told D we have way too many square pegs to fit round holes, and I used that analogy b/c we’ve recruited guys who are tweeners or guys who didn’t fit our identity, and tried to force them schematically (and this is prior to Richt/Diaz). I’ve also said, OK....if we can’t get the creme de la creme as those kids tend to go to more productive programs, well then you better hit on ur evals for the best of the rest, which clearly we haven’t.

But struggling w/ UVA? Pitt? OK St? UNC? Bro; we may not have Bama talent, but man we are thee most talented team in The Coastal & I’m going to assume if we gave this same exact team to Meyers, Swinney, Fisher, Saban, Riley, Day, Clarke, Shula (while in his grave) would all be dominating the Coastal. That’s y I’m more focus on our infrastructure & not talent. If the infrastructure is f’d, then the talent automatically will be f’d. Everything, EVERYTHING starts from the top. That’s every program, both collegiately & professionally.
 
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Avery Huff:
Per 247 - #12 OLB in the Nation ; #207 overall player in the Nation


Yet, here at Miami, he can’t grasp the playbook.

Well what about his teammate at Aquinas, Bonitto. Both similar in height & stature.
Nik Bonitto:
Per 247 - #17 OLB in the Nation ; #220 overall player in the Nation

Yet, there at Oklahoma, he’s one of the best OLBs in ALL of CFB!


So, I’m going to keep asking this ? until I get an honest, satisfying answer:

How in THEE FCK is 247 consistently wrong w/ our “blue chip” evaluations, yet 247 is “correct” on other team’s blue chip players??

I’ve now heard for the 7 yrs I’ve been on this site every excuse used to justify our recruiting failures:
1. Not enough talent (bull chit per our class rankings)

2. Misevaluated (bull chit per the # of 4 stars that’s been on this roster)

3. Guys not grasping the playbook (bull chit per our coaches & players saying the playbooks have been simple)

4. Not enough practice time (bull chit per EVERY FCKIN TEAM IN AMERICA)

5. Injuries/set backs (bull chit per EVERY FCKIN TEAM IN AMERICA)

How bout a real simple answer: continuing to hire **** poor coaches, w/ a **** poor vision of what Miami football is & should be, along w/ a **** poor S&C program that focuses on the wrong chit like “GPS MPH Tracking” which is fraudulent af.

There is absolutely no way we can continue to see blue chip guys look like blue tortilla chips class after class. It cannot continue to be any of those 5 excuses....for 10+ yrs??
You Got It Animation GIF by SWR Kindernetz
 
@Rellyrell
there's multiple ways to look at "talent."

Miami is not lacking talent coming out of high school... at least not to win the Coastal yearly...

but Miami is sorely lacking talented CF players. we have amateur hour coaching for years.

it depends on how you are using the word in reference to time in program.
 
OK; let me step out my “logical trap” for a second. Lol.

I’ve said from the jump, 247 is not the Bible. No recruiting services is; truth be told, my first time being directly intimate w/ recruiting rating was actually basketball. My boy took me down to San Diego to go see him work as he scouted one Chase Budinger (a blast from the past.) He explained how Chase got his scores based upon a numerous amount of factors. So I get it.

However, these services provide a pretty good track record & indicator. We know that b/c the schools that typically recruit the highly rated players do pretty well, IF the infrastructure is in place (which is our biggest problem, imo).

The first thing we do is compare the amount of blue chips on the roster. Well; who determines the blue chips? Recruiting services. Lol. If not, then every kid would self declare as a blue chip. So recruiting services are pretty spot on for the most part, but of course, they are prone to mistakes.

Here’s my point going back to my Huff & Bonitto comparison;

Clearly Bonitto is a blue chip talent by both his ratings by said recruiting services & his play on the field at OU. But am I to believe Nik would be the same player here, as he is at OU? Based upon our history w/ so many guys under performing, I doubt it. Would Huff be a stud at Bama or OU? That’s debatable; but looking at history, probably a better chance. Would Pope still be looking like a HS Sr if he was at, let’s say OSU? Would Nesta still have elementary interior moves at Clemson? The fact is, my brother, I’m not so sure.

I agree w/ u on our evals, I’ve been very critical of our evals. I’ve told D we have way too many square pegs to fit round holes, and I used that analogy b/c we’ve recruited guys who are tweeners or guys who didn’t fit our identity, and tried to force them schematically (and this is prior to Richt/Diaz). I’ve also said, OK....if we can’t get the creme de la creme as those kids tend to go to more productive programs, well then you better hit on ur evals for the best of the rest, which clearly we haven’t.

But struggling w/ UVA? Pitt? OK St? UNC? Bro; we may not have Bama talent, but man we are thee most talented team in The Coastal & I’m going to assume if we gave this same exact team to Meyers, Swinney, Fisher, Saban, Riley, Day, Clarke, Shula (while in his grave) would all be dominating the Coastal. That’s y I’m more focus on our infrastructure & not talent. If the infrastructure is f’d, then the talent automatically will be f’d. Everything, EVERYTHING starts from the top. That’s every program, both collegiately & professionally.
You and I often agree, but we do not here at all. I think you've got it backwards on this.

First of all, schools that recruit highly rated players suck and fail fast. That's a dog chasing it's tail. It's completely false. That's what Coker did to ruin the program. You think schools recruit players based on how they're rated? That's just not true for good schools. It's the opposite. Rating services rate kids based on how they're recruited. If Nick Saban wants you, you're going to get more highly rated, because he's proven he knows what he's doing and he doesn't waste his time with kids who don't merit his attention.

The problem is that recruiting ratings are circular. They reflect which top schools rate kids. So yes, the best schools are generally good at evals and when they chase kids, those kids tend to be good bets. But that doesn't tell you anything about Miami recruits. Because 'offers', which casual fans go by, are relatively meaningless. Alabama sends out hundreds of offer letters. So do most top schools. They take 24 kids, give or take. And 'offer' letter is a 'hi, how're you doin?' note. An OV doesn't guarantee a kid will truly get commitment papers because some kids get dinged after an OV, but schools are relatively limited in OVs, so if a kid gets an OV to a school it's a reliable indicator it took him seriously enough.

All that aside, the rating services are at best aiming at statistical measures, because kids are probabilities, not certainties. The rating reflects a kid's expected mean, more or less, with some standard deviation up and down as a probability set. It's not a normally distributed distribution but forget about that for now. It's not even accurate to say the ratings are wrong on Miami kids, because those ratings include up and downside ranges, and exist amongst a pool of thousands of kids. Some will outperform, some will underperform. (They may be wrong but we'd need a lot more info to claim that.) You're just thinking about it wrong, IMO. What's happening is that Miami is selecting kids who are more likely to underperform their assigned mean, and it doesn't grasp why. The services are doing what they do, maybe well, maybe not, but it's not about our kids for them, it's about overall averages. Miami isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing, however, which is picking kids well. Again, they shouldn't be picking based on ratings, but more likely, they're just failing to have a screen that picks up the things the rating services miss, such as cultural and personality traits associated with development (work, toughness, competitiveness). I'd guess that the simple combination of a poor cultural screen along with a bias towards highly rated kids (human flaw, they shouldn't have this) would model out to bad evals over time. Because what goes on is schools that know what they're doing prioritize some kids over others. If we don't have that lens, we end up biased towards kids some good eval programs don't want so much, because we think they're 'better bets' for us to get them. And maybe they are. But until we show that we know how to evaluate well, I'd take more comfort in looking at who we're competing with for kids than what their ratings are.

I acknowledge that this is overly general, because some positions are really hard to evaluate - OL and QB, e.g. My personal view is we've blown recruiting at DB, blown evals at LB, done pretty well on both at DE, blown evals at WR, done pretty well on both at TE. DT I'd say we're okay, probably have been solid enough for a while on evals considering we rarely get top kids (this year being an exception), but would like to see us recruit the position harder. RB we've been pretty good in both also. Our biggest eval weaknesses have been WR, LB, OL and QB, in my view. Our biggest recruiting challenges have been CB and OL. Edit: at LB, we have under-focused on recruiting the spot recently, so that's a recruiting issue, but we've signed some 'highly rated' kids and have definitely not evaluated particularly well. Probably can say it's a 'both' spot.
 
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You and I often agree, but we do not here at all. I think you've got it backwards on this.

First of all, schools that recruit highly rated players suck and fail fast. That's a dog chasing it's tail. It's completely false. That's what Coker did to ruin the program. You think schools recruit players based on how they're rated? That's just not true for good schools. It's the opposite. Rating services rate kids based on how they're recruited. If Nick Saban wants you, you're going to get more highly rated, because he's proven he knows what he's doing and he doesn't waste his time with kids who don't merit his attention.

The problem is that recruiting ratings are circular. They reflect which top schools rate kids. So yes, the best schools are generally good at evals and when they chase kids, those kids tend to be good bets. But that doesn't tell you anything about Miami recruits. Because 'offers', which casual fans go by, are relatively meaningless. Alabama sends out hundreds of offer letters. So do most top schools. They take 24 kids, give or take. And 'offer' letter is a 'hi, how're you doin?' note. An OV doesn't guarantee a kid will truly get commitment papers because some kids get dinged after an OV, but schools are relatively limited in OVs, so if a kid gets an OV to a school it's a reliable indicator it took him seriously enough.

All that aside, the rating services are at best aiming at statistical measures, because kids are probabilities, not certainties. The rating reflects a kid's expected mean, more or less, with some standard deviation up and down as a probability set. It's not a normally distributed distribution but forget about that for now. It's not even accurate to say the ratings are wrong on Miami kids, because those ratings include up and downside ranges, and exist amongst a pool of thousands of kids. Some will outperform, some will underperform. (They may be wrong but we'd need a lot more info to claim that.) You're just thinking about it wrong, IMO. What's happening is that Miami is selecting kids who are more likely to underperform their assigned mean, and it doesn't grasp why. The services are doing what they do, maybe well, maybe not, but it's not about our kids for them, it's about overall averages. Miami isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing, however, which is picking kids well. Again, they shouldn't be picking based on ratings, but more likely, they're just failing to have a screen that picks up the things the rating services miss, such as cultural and personality traits associated with development (work, toughness, competitiveness). I'd guess that the simple combination of a poor cultural screen along with a bias towards highly rated kids (human flaw, they shouldn't have this) would model out to bad evals over time. Because what goes on is schools that know what they're doing prioritize some kids over others. If we don't have that lens, we end up biased towards kids some good eval programs don't want so much, because we think they're 'better bets' for us to get them. And maybe they are. But until we show that we know how to evaluate well, I'd take more comfort in looking at who we're competing with for kids than what their ratings are.

I acknowledge that this is overly general, because some positions are really hard to evaluate - OL and QB, e.g. My personal view is we've blown recruiting at DB, blown evals at LB, done pretty well on both at DE, blown evals at WR, done pretty well on both at TE. DT I'd say we're okay, probably have been solid enough for a while on evals considering we rarely get top kids (this year being an exception), but would like to see us recruit the position harder. RB we've been pretty good in both also. Our biggest eval weaknesses have been WR, LB, OL and QB, in my view. Our biggest recruiting challenges have been CB and OL. Edit: at LB, we have under-focused on recruiting the spot recently, so that's a recruiting issue, but we've signed some 'highly rated' kids and have definitely not evaluated particularly well. Probably can say it's a 'both' spot.

It’s kinda hard to get the gist of post; so first let me say, everything u posted, I agree w. Again, my first direct exposure to recruiting was way back when. So trust when I say I know how many different factors goes to a kids rating (i.e: offer list (prestige of the schools), measurables, camps, stats, rep of the school, etc. etc.)

That’s no never mind to me; the fact is, recruiting services are nothing more than a tool. It is not the end all to be all...at the end of the day, if U’re recruiting players based upon a tool, then u suck as an evaluator. However, this tool is very useful to become familiar w/ players, and as fans, to see how we are stacking up in regards to recruiting.

Again, I COMPLETELY agree that our evaluations have sucked. U will never hear me say otherwise, but that does not neglect the fact we are completely under developing our players.

Did u see the KC v. Buffalo game? (I’m sure u did). Well, they did a stat check on Tyreke’s top speed today. 20.76 MPH. He looked like he was running that fast. Here in Coral Gables? Everybody is running 20 MPH & that’s inherently untrue. The point? We are juking stats to make these boys feel good about themselves, & when they get smacked in the mouth, they get blamed for “not falling back on their training, free lancing, or (insert coaching excuse here).”

Again; going back to Huff....(which was the original subject)....is it Huff? Is it a fit? Was he misevaluated by recruiting services? Was he misevaluated by us? Did 247’s misevaluate both Huff & Bonitto? Or is it our staph?

There is no doubt in my mind that’s it’s a combination of everything, fa sho; but 15+ yrs of bad evals? I’m going to assume, that majority of our bad evals have been more or less exaggerated b/c of **** poor schemes, coaching, and development. Golden had 7 NFL draft picks in the 2015 draft. Results of the ‘14-15 season? 6-7 as an example.
 
@Rellyrell
there's multiple ways to look at "talent."

Miami is not lacking talent coming out of high school... at least not to win the Coastal yearly...

but Miami is sorely lacking talented CF players. we have amateur hour coaching for years.

it depends on how you are using the word in reference to time in program.

I guess we should start saying or using the word potential vs talent. B/c in essence, that’s all these evaluations are showing; HS transitioning to Collegiate potential. No different than a NFL draft selection.

It just seems that our potential is never tapped to its fullest extent, while other programs are.
 
It’s kinda hard to get the gist of post; so first let me say, everything u posted, I agree w. Again, my first direct exposure to recruiting was way back when. So trust when I say I know how many different factors goes to a kids rating (i.e: offer list (prestige of the schools), measurables, camps, stats, rep of the school, etc. etc.)

That’s no never mind to me; the fact is, recruiting services are nothing more than a tool. It is not the end all to be all...at the end of the day, if U’re recruiting players based upon a tool, then u suck as an evaluator. However, this tool is very useful to become familiar w/ players, and as fans, to see how we are stacking up in regards to recruiting.

Again, I COMPLETELY agree that our evaluations have sucked. U will never hear me say otherwise, but that does not neglect the fact we are completely under developing our players.

Did u see the KC v. Buffalo game? (I’m sure u did). Well, they did a stat check on Tyreke’s top speed today. 20.76 MPH. He looked like he was running that fast. Here in Coral Gables? Everybody is running 20 MPH & that’s inherently untrue. The point? We are juking stats to make these boys feel good about themselves, & when they get smacked in the mouth, they get blamed for “not falling back on their training, free lancing, or (insert coaching excuse here).”

Again; going back to Huff....(which was the original subject)....is it Huff? Is it a fit? Was he misevaluated by recruiting services? Was he misevaluated by us? Did 247’s misevaluate both Huff & Bonitto? Or is it our staph?

There is no doubt in my mind that’s it’s a combination of everything, fa sho; but 15+ yrs of bad evals? I’m going to assume, that majority of our bad evals have been more or less exaggerated b/c of **** poor schemes, coaching, and development. Golden had 7 NFL draft picks in the 2015 draft. Results of the ‘14-15 season? 6-7 as an example.
To me, Huff and Bonito is a fine example. Huff was the superior athlete, but not a LB. Bonitto the question I recall was whether he was too stiff, lacked lateral ability, something like that. And so Huff had the higher 'ceiling' they said. Maybe he did. Except LB isn't really about ceiling. We'd never recruit Zach Thomas, and guy's going to the Hall of Fame one of these days. LB is about instincts, and we consistently recruit guys who project but don't actually have the proven instincts. Brooks was an edge rusher. Wilder, same. Shaq was the instinct guy, McCloud the projection kid in that class (Pinckney was a real LB also).

We've had quirky expectations at a few spots. CB, several coaches have leaned towards bigger guys - Randy did, Rumph has. Golden recruited some smaller guys but also blew evals badly on several kids (Larry Hope, Vernon Davis, Dortch).

I think this is a good discussion because it pushes on what's the real problem in our evals. I've said it before - I think it's a few things that overlap. First, we don't really know what we're looking for in a crisp or insightful way in terms of needs or spec. Second, we have had biases at certain positions that have restricted the talent pool. Third, we have had biases against certain types of kid for cultural reasons going back to Shalala, and almost certainly also have had a very poor understanding of what personality traits we should seek out or avoid. Fourth, we've been really reactive in roster management, leading to a cycle of under- then over-recruiting spots that compounds issues when it goes poorly. Fifth, we've been lazy in recruiting, haven't filled our overall roster well (that's an example, not the point), and as a result, have almost certainly chased kids who we shouldn't have (seemed easier) and avoided chasing kids we should have tried harder with (seemed harder). Sixth, there's quite likely a selection bias working against us, where there are local kids we should want but they're not interested and the ones who are most interested maybe as a pool aren't panning out as well. Combine all that with our roster problems meant good kids had to play too early, didn't redshirt or gain experience before they were thrown out there, and the ones who played okay for a few years were looking to leave early because why not. Add it all up and its a roster that isn't what it should or could be, and underperforms its 'star ranking.'
 
To me, Huff and Bonito is a fine example. Huff was the superior athlete, but not a LB. Bonitto the question I recall was whether he was too stiff, lacked lateral ability, something like that. And so Huff had the higher 'ceiling' they said. Maybe he did. Except LB isn't really about ceiling. We'd never recruit Zach Thomas, and guy's going to the Hall of Fame one of these days. LB is about instincts, and we consistently recruit guys who project but don't actually have the proven instincts. Brooks was an edge rusher. Wilder, same. Shaq was the instinct guy, McCloud the projection kid in that class (Pinckney was a real LB also).

We've had quirky expectations at a few spots. CB, several coaches have leaned towards bigger guys - Randy did, Rumph has. Golden recruited some smaller guys but also blew evals badly on several kids (Larry Hope, Vernon Davis, Dortch).

I think this is a good discussion because it pushes on what's the real problem in our evals. I've said it before - I think it's a few things that overlap. First, we don't really know what we're looking for in a crisp or insightful way in terms of needs or spec. Second, we have had biases at certain positions that have restricted the talent pool. Third, we have had biases against certain types of kid for cultural reasons going back to Shalala, and almost certainly also have had a very poor understanding of what personality traits we should seek out or avoid. Fourth, we've been really reactive in roster management, leading to a cycle of under- then over-recruiting spots that compounds issues when it goes poorly. Fifth, we've been lazy in recruiting, haven't filled our overall roster well (that's an example, not the point), and as a result, have almost certainly chased kids who we shouldn't have (seemed easier) and avoided chasing kids we should have tried harder with (seemed harder). Sixth, there's quite likely a selection bias working against us, where there are local kids we should want but they're not interested and the ones who are most interested maybe as a pool aren't panning out as well. Combine all that with our roster problems meant good kids had to play too early, didn't redshirt or gain experience before they were thrown out there, and the ones who played okay for a few years were looking to leave early because why not. Add it all up and its a roster that isn't what it should or could be, and underperforms its 'star ranking.'

I agree w/ all of this. Literally no arguments here. It’s been a nice combination of everything mentioned here that’s led us to this point.
 
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It's easy to overlook but just measuring rosters on age, and experience would tell you a lot. How many kids do we roll with who have had 3+ years in the program and are in the 2-deep? How about years 4-5 kids (the real vets)? How many talented kids redshirt?

People look at stars, but evals aside stars don't tell us the whole story. There should be a metric like stars * years in program and look at the rating of our 2 deep.
 
To hit on the issue of evaluation, I believe our coaches tend to fall in love with measurables and projections a little too much. I look at the linebacker room and it’s full of guys who did nothing but rush the passer in high school. The coaches see measurables (size, speed, agility) and assume it can translate over to a traditional linebacker spot. But then they put these guys on the field at LB and they’re lost. There’s no instinct and the recognition is way too slow. Doesn’t matter if you run 4.5 if you have to guess which way to run when the ball is snapped because you can’t diagnose a running play. Or they drop into a zone but just turn into parking cones because they have no feel for coverage. So immediately, right off the bat, these guys have to be reprogrammed and taught fundamentals. They literally need to start at step one. Now maybe, if we had a decent LB coach, he could turn a couple of these guys into something but even a really great coach would struggle turning these guys into usable linebackers before their third or fourth year in the system.
 
Our development makes our evaluations look so much worse. I think a good way of judging is by looking at our players who were truly recruited by schools like Bama, LSU, Clemson, OSU and the like over the last 10 years. We’ve had a couple hit, Ahmmon Richards of note, but many have outright failed or just become JAGs. I have a hard time imagining those schools have failed on all those evals and we were the unlucky recipients.


ESands, Bonitto was an edge rusher in high school so it’s not accurate to say he was the true LBer of the two.
 
Our development makes our evaluations look so much worse. I think a good way of judging is by looking at our players who were truly recruited by schools like Bama, LSU, Clemson, OSU and the like over the last 10 years. We’ve had a couple hit, Ahmmon Richards of note, but many have outright failed or just become JAGs. I have a hard time imagining those schools have failed on all those evals and we were the unlucky recipients.


ESands, Bonitto was an edge rusher in high school so it’s not accurate to say he was the true LBer of the two.
It’s sad, but there are threads on this very site where proven knowledgable posters are saying he’s talented and should be prioritized.

It’s disaopointing to say this, but we do have to confront the possibility that the part time LB corch at UM just sucked at recruiting evals and was too lazy or arrogant to both to bother learn what knowledgable people on this site thought.
 
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