A Trend That Must Stop

[Rellyrell]

Even the best defenses in the world would have a hard time keeping a team that's on the ten from getting any points. Unless you force a turnover, you're still giving up an easy, chip shot, go ahead field goal.

Which is part of the main issue when we complain about the defense. We expect the defense to go way above and beyond what would be considered fair expectations.

There's certainly a few areas that could be improved on defense, they're not elite. I would grade the overall defense since Manny has been here as a B+/A-. Very good but not quite peak level. Meanwhile, I would grade the offense over the same period of time a D+. Occasional glimpses of good play but mostly garbage. Yes we can pick out specific moments during games where the defense failed but you could start a twenty page thread just listing individual moments where the offense failed. Honestly, the fact that the defensive players have not had an all out mutiny against the offensive coaches and players is a miracle. If the defense was even average last year, they would have gone 2-9. Louisville was the only game where I could honestly say, "thankfully the offense carried the load because the defense just wasn't very good today".

So you’re going to forget about VT, UNC, and FIU busting the defenses’ ***? I wouldn’t give the def a B+/A- that’s exceptional. The def deserves a B. You can’t miss that many tackles and give up late game TDs.

Are we going to conveniently forget that the def spotted FSU a 27-0 lead and the O had to come all the way back to win, just in 2018? Or the def spotting Wisc a 21 point 2nd quarter in the Orange Bowl? Are we going to act like Duke, GT, and BC didn’t just willfully run the ball down our throats last yr or that Wisconsin didn’t just say “Fck a pass, we’ll just run for 300+ on ya’ll”??

It’s time to stop acting like we’re marching eliteness out here. The O has been a throwback of the 20’s, I know.....but the def has been inconsistent. Anyone in their right mind would agree it needs to be improved. The O was obvious that it needed to improve, but this thread is to highlight that the def needs some tweaks as well.

 

[Tim]

So full disclosure, I blame @D RevLee for the inspiration of this thread. It's nothing he personally did, but he did post clips of the Miami v. LA Tech game asking how Brooks looked taking over for Pinckney. In doing so, I noticed some on going in season trends: missed tackles, extended drives, no push from the interior, and getting pushed off the L.O.S. I didn't realize that LA Tech gashed us for 174 on the ground that game.

This game got me curious as to a Manny Diaz led defense since his tenure here. We've been gloating about the TFL's and our total defensive numbers, but you may be surprised at an alarming trend; a trend to which the defense should be held just as culpable as the offense.

While our pass rush gets home, our run defense has been less than stellar during Diaz's entire tenure. But it doesn't always start off that way; when we begin the season, we are tough against the run, but somewhere between games 3-5 the wheels come off and they stay off. This is why we're **** poor on 3rd and 4th down defense, and this is why the T.O.P is so lopsided.

Peep this:
2016:
We began the year giving up an avg. of 34 ypg after our first 2 games
The next 11 games, we gave up an avg. of 151 ypg

2017 (Our best season in the last 16 yrs):
We began the year giving up an avg. of 111.5 ypg after our first 2 games
The next 11 games, we gave up an avg. of 154.5 ypg

2018:
We began the year giving up an avg of 78 ypg after our first 4 games
The next 9 games, we gave up an avg. of 172 ypg

2019:
We began the year giving up an avg of 60 ypg after our first 4 games
The next 9 games, we gave up an avg. of 139 ypg.

This trend has to stop if we are going to make it to the next level. This shows our defense's inability to get off the field, further exasperating our issues. No changes were made on the defensive side of the ball, and personally, I felt it was a mistake. The offense had glaring issues b/c it was just bad in all phases, but the defense got a pass b/c of the **** stats like TFLs, sacks, and the turnover chain was talked about. But since reaching #2 back in 2017, we've now gone sub .500 as a ball club between the latter part of 2017 - 2020. That's not just on the O, that's a team effort.

An offense that can score, get the lead, and force teams into abandoning the run will help.

 

[orange&green84]

Isn't pointing out the 3rd and 17 against a horrible GT team doing exactly what you're saying? Cherry picking? Discounting the splash plays and focus on that big third down to judge is just as slanted a look as focusing on just the positive.

The defense gave up 7 total points in that game, zero in the second half. Wasn't a beautiful game defensively, it was sloppy and uninspired. But as is the case with 90% of our games, that unit had us in a position to win the game had our offense done literally anything to help us win.

As usual, one side of the ball completely failed and the other had to play perfect football to give us a chance.

The defense in that game was continuously getting carved up in the 2nd half once Pinckney went down. GT is a rebuilding team and they don't have an offense that's going to smoke you. But they were able to go back to their roots and continuously able to get 1st down after 1st down. This kept our offense on the sideline and unable to get into a rhythm that game. Our defense is far from perfect.

 

[Rellyrell]

An offense that can score, get the lead, and force teams into abandoning the run will help.

I’m glad for these responses, b/c I said in the Lashlee thread that Manny literally has no excuse this yr. I know the O being better will help, so if the O is the only problem, then I fully expect 10+ wins this yr.

 

[orange&green84]

So you’re going to forget about VT, UNC, and FIU busting the defenses’ ***? I wouldn’t give the def a B+/A- that’s exceptional. The def deserves a B. You can’t miss that many tackles and give up late game TDs.

Are we going to conveniently forget that the def spotted FSU a 27-0 lead and the O had to come all the way back to win, just in 2018? Or the def spotting Wisc a 21 point 2nd quarter in the Orange Bowl? Are we going to act like Duke, GT, and BC didn’t just willfully run the ball down our throats last yr or that Wisconsin didn’t just say “Fck a pass, we’ll just run for 300+ on ya’ll”??

It’s time to stop acting like we’re marching eliteness out here. The O has been a throwback of the 20’s, I know.....but the def has been inconsistent. Anyone in their right mind would agree it needs to be improved. The O was obvious that it needed to improve, but this thread is to highlight that the def needs some tweaks as well.

Our defense hasn't been THE problem. But they're certainly far from a good product themselves. Just because they operated better as a unit then our offense (based off of last year), doesn't mean they're absolved from any criticism. It's possible to have our offense improve with hires like we've made, while also looking at the defense and ask how it can be better also.

 

[Rellyrell]

The defense in that game was continuously getting carved up in the 2nd half once Pinckney went down. GT is a rebuilding team and they don't have an offense that's going to smoke you. But they were able to go back to their roots and continuously able to get 1st down after 1st down. This kept our offense on the sideline and unable to get into a rhythm that game. Our defense is far from perfect.

Say less my guy. Everything is context based. Based upon @Moonman & @Go Canes!! responses, since The O is the only problem, anything less than 10 wins is a failure. We have a highly sought out OC, we have young pups w speed at LB, and have two legit 1st round DEs. The def should be elite this yr.

 

[Rellyrell]

Our defense hasn't been THE problem. But they're certainly far from a good product themselves. Just because they operated better as a unit then our offense (based off of last year), doesn't mean they're absolved from any criticism. It's possible to have our offense improve with hires like we've made, while also looking at the defense and ask how it can be better also.

That’s all I’ve been saying, but some get some frazzled when objective criticism is highlighted. No where did I say the def is trash; I said there’s a glaring trend that needs to be stopped. That’s it. Ppl act like Manny is some demi-god DC. The scheme has flaws and some teams took advantage of it. It can b cleaned up, period.

 

[MyKidIsLoggedIn2MyAccount]

potential factors for late season slides with the Diaz and defense could be:

1)chronically bad offense and eventually giving up later in season when they routinely don’t score enough or consistently win games they should. This also ties into a lazy unaccountable culture under richt and Diaz (constant Diaz) with both players and coaches.

2)other offenses figuring out the gimmicks from our defense as the season progresses and our defensive coaching not adapting. As was mentioned here and during last season, the gap integrity was horrific.

3) I think this season does one of two things:
A) a good up tempo offense and improvements from Lashlee puts a lot more pressure on just how overrated and gimmicky the defense has been. Our trashy offenses have overshadowed the mediocre defenses who don’t seem to play offenses with a pulse (unc will be a good test this year)

B) Despite the obvious coaching issues the defense will show more effort as the season progresses and will maintain the better numbers in earlier part of season due to optimism and productivity generated by offense.

 

[Moonman]

My example was lacking. I wanted to get it typed before my conference call started. But that was my point in an earlier post. How much of this is because the defense is demoralized as they watch their season slip away? My example was simply asking if the defense is elite or just looks it by comparison? I can see it from both sides. @Rellyrell's point about early defense vs later highlights both those questions.

I don't really have the answers, but I suspect the defense will step up once the offense starts producing.

Step up to what exactly? We had a defense ranked in the top 5 in NINE categories in 2018.

Opponent 1st downs: 1st
3rd down conversions: 1st
Tackles for loss: 1st
Passing yards: 1st
Pass efficiency defense: 1st
Yards per pass attempt: 2nd
Total defense: 3rd
Yards per defensive snap: 3rd
Sacks: 4th
Interceptions: 9th
Turnovers forced: 9th
Yards per rush: 11th
Scoring defense: 12th
Rush defense: 22nd
Red zone defense: 31st

Yes, there was a slight drop-off in 2019. It was mainly because we replaced three seniors in the secondary and our pass defense dropped from #1 to #12

Our rush defense actually improved by a considerable measure from #31 to #11...and yards allowed per rush attempt improved from 3.54 (#11) to 3.17 (#7).

So please tell me where exactly what this defense needs to step up to to satisfy this fanbase...zero yards allowed?

 

[JD08]

Step up to what exactly? We had a defense ranked in the top 5 in NINE categories in 2018.

Opponent 1st downs: 1st
3rd down conversions: 1st
Tackles for loss: 1st
Passing yards: 1st
Pass efficiency defense: 1st
Yards per pass attempt: 2nd
Total defense: 3rd
Yards per defensive snap: 3rd
Sacks: 4th
Interceptions: 9th
Turnovers forced: 9th
Yards per rush: 11th
Scoring defense: 12th
Rush defense: 22nd
Red zone defense: 31st

Yes, there was a slight drop-off in 2019. It was mainly because we replaced three seniors in the secondary and our pass defense dropped from #1 to #12

Our rush defense actually improved by a considerable measure from #31 to #11...and yards allowed per rush attempt improved from 3.54 (#11) to 3.17 (#7).

So please tell me where exactly what this defense needs to step up to to satisfy this fanbase...zero yards allowed?

Its not the stats, it's the timing. You can be 99.9% on 4th down, but if the one you give up is the game winner...

Relly pointed out the dropoff. I speculate they were demoralized. We'll see.

 

[Moonman]

Say less my guy. Everything is context based. Based upon @Moonman & @Go Canes!! responses, since The O is the only problem, anything less than 10 wins is a failure. We have a highly sought out OC, we have young pups w speed at LB, and have two legit 1st round DEs. The def should be elite this yr.

You are correct.

Given the fact that the defense has indeed been elite in various categories since Manny came to Coral Gables, it is reasonable to expect that it should once again be ranked among the elite in 2020.

I believe anything less than 9 wins and Manny should be shown the door.

 

[PittsburghCane]

I’m glad for these responses, b/c I said in the Lashlee thread that Manny literally has no excuse this yr. I know the O being better will help, so if the O is the only problem, then I fully expect 10+ wins this yr.

This.

Our defense has not performed elite. But you'll find most elite defenses are coupled with a reliable offense.
One that either controls the clock or consistently scores in the top 40. The way your defense can attack is almost always tied to what your offense and special teams gives you.

If you are continuously behind the eight ball for field position or continually play tight games its next to impossible to consistently play your desired brand of defense. Miami wants to control the pocket and force tough decisions on the offense to get TFLs and turnovers.
However, this brand of defense looses its teeth when they have to protect a lead or protect a point differential.

One could say throw caution to the wind and continue pinning your ears back but if you cannot control the clock then you defense will get tired and lesser talents will get rotated in. This also opens you up to big plays rushing since a higher number of rushers equals less tacklers beyond the line of scrimmage.
Also if you are always behind or in tight games then your opposition will run more often to protect a lead.

Additionally when your offense can consistently give you a lead and keep it this will favor an attacking defense as you are given more cushion to be aggressive without concern of increasing point differential if losing.
If your offense is on point then the opposition will have to pass twice as much as throw which feeds an aggressive defense as they can basically expect the same conditions and attack on those grounds.

TD:LR Version - Bad offense, bad field position, and losing the TOP battle will always limit what a defense can do. 2016 was our best year defensively, and unsurprisingly had an efficient offense backing it up.

 

[Moonman]

Its not the stats, it's the timing. You can be 99.9% on 4th down, but if the one you give up is the game winner...

Relly pointed out the dropoff. I speculate they were demoralized. We'll see.

My point is that we're trying to hold the defense to an impossible standard. The stats are simply for comparison. I posted above how we performed side to side statistically with what everyone can agree are elite defenses. Yet nobody else has tried to counter that with anything but "yeah well 4th and 17" or "we suck late in games"...has anyone looked at the games lost by the consensus "elite" defenses and compared them to us? I'd like to see that. I'd be great to have a substantive discussion instead of having to defend against crap like "Manure's gimmicky D gets assraped on the reg my dude!"

 

[a51]

At least one of the first two opponents is always a joke. 2019 is pretty much the sole exception to this.

 

[a51]

Was 2017 really the best season in the last 16 years? I think 2004, 2005 and 2016 were all visibly better than 2017 TBH. I'm not even sure that 2017 was better than 2009.

 

[JD08]

My point is that we're trying to hold the defense to an impossible standard. The stats are simply for comparison. I posted above how we performed side to side statistically with what everyone can agree are elite defenses. Yet nobody else has tried to counter that with anything but "yeah well 4th and 17" or "we suck late in games"...has anyone looked at the games lost by the consensus "elite" defenses and compared them to us? I'd like to see that. I'd be great to have a substantive discussion instead of having to defend against crap like "Manure's gimmicky D is gets assraped on the reg my dude!"

It's the offseason so we're going to debate all kinds of things. Statistically, we do have a decent defense. The question of whether it's good enough when it needs to be will always be up to debate as long as there are losses. That's all Relly did here. He sliced a diced the performance by start and end of season.

 

[DTP]

So you’re going to forget about VT, UNC, and FIU busting the defenses’ ***?

Miami defense held Virginia Tech to 337 total yards. The offense turned the ball over 5 times.
Miami defense held FIU to 297 total yards. The offense had 3 turnovers plus a turnover on downs.
Miami defense came out flat against UNC but still held them to 389 yards. It's not like North Carolina was moving the ball up and down the field with ease, especially after the first quarter.

You're talking about an average of 341 yards in each of those losses. Yeah, they' could have made more plays. they could have played better but you can't honestly say the defense is the reason they lost any of those games.

If you want to grade the defense a B overall, I can't argue with that. Just realize the offense has been at best a D. If the offense had even played at a C level, we would have been in the ACC championship game every year instead of winning 6 or 7 games.

 

[DTP]

The fact that we can remember each and every play that the defense blew shows you just how rare they mess up. Like I said earlier, if you were to list ever time the offense blew it, you'd need a 20 page thread.

Bold prediction: The defense will slip a bit in total yards and possibly passing yards but only because Lashlee's offense will be scoring so fast, opponents will be pressing to stay in games against us this year. Just like LSU's overall defensive numbers slipped a bit in 2019.

 

[DuvalCanegang]

This.

Our defense has not performed elite. But you'll find most elite defenses are coupled with a reliable offense.
One that either controls the clock or consistently scores in the top 40. The way your defense can attack is almost always tied to what your offense and special teams gives you.

If you are continuously behind the eight ball for field position or continually play tight games its next to impossible to consistently play your desired brand of defense. Miami wants to control the pocket and force tough decisions on the offense to get TFLs and turnovers.
However, this brand of defense looses its teeth when they have to protect a lead or protect a point differential.

One could say throw caution to the wind and continue pinning your ears back but if you cannot control the clock then you defense will get tired and lesser talents will get rotated in. This also opens you up to big plays rushing since a higher number of rushers equals less tacklers beyond the line of scrimmage.
Also if you are always behind or in tight games then your opposition will run more often to protect a lead.

Additionally when your offense can consistently give you a lead and keep it this will favor an attacking defense as you are given more cushion to be aggressive without concern of increasing point differential if losing.
If your offense is on point then the opposition will have to pass twice as much as throw which feeds an aggressive defense as they can basically expect the same conditions and attack on those grounds.

TD:LR Version - Bad offense, bad field position, and losing the TOP battle will always limit what a defense can do. 2016 was our best year defensively, and unsurprisingly had an efficient offense backing it up.

10000000% !!!

 

[bshaw28]

So I noticed how you conveniently left out game # 2, and your reasoning on game 5 just don’t justify the O battling all the way back, just for the def on the very next possession to give up the lead. That’s not championship caliber football, and if you go back to those game threads, some posters were literally saying “now watch the def give up the lead.”

Regardless, that illustration was in response to the poster stating that our def was playing on short fields, and I highlighted that the def allowed *** from distance when they were up. Allowing a 91 yrd drive against a G5 team is ***.

So again, just so I’m clear, I’m not saying the def is the problem, but let’s stop acting & feeding into Manny’s bull chit that the only problem is the O. If u want to justify why the def got bent over by 3 G5 teams (and yes, CMU lost, but their WRs had the dropsies on their final possession) was b/c of the O, that’s ur prerogative, but UNC & VT was squarely on the def, period. So that’s at least 2 add’l wins.

UNC - I see that as a clean game and wouldn't say that was the O or D's fault. Yes the 4th & 17 killed us, but so did our 2 missed FG's and not converting a 4th & 1 at the UNC 19 in the 2nd Half. If you want to put that on the D, I wouldn't argue.

VT - The offense had 5 turnovers in the 1st Half and you want to blame the Defense? C'mon....

And vs the 3 G5 teams the offense scored:

CMU - 17
FIU - 24 (3 pts until halfway thru the 4th Quarter)
La Tech - 0

We average 13.6 pts per game vs G5 teams, and scored a combined 17 pts in the 1st 3 quarters of those games - it's painfully obvious the Offense is overwhelmingly the problem.

I think most agree we're not an elite defense, so your point is made there. But I think you're underestimating how much the Offense is the problem compared to the Defense. Is the Offense 100% the problem? No. Is it 80-85% of the problem? Probably