40 yard times are very misleading

Elder will be drafted around the 5th round, according to a draft analysis I just saw.

The knock on him is size in every analysis I've seen.
 
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It certainly doesn't help Elders' stock that he's smallish and ran a mediocre forty. Nobody's going to argue that. But if you want to justify drafting a less productive corner earlier simply because he ran a slightly faster forty yard dash, you're planning for failure. We've seen Corn Elder excel in man and zone coverage. We've seen him make plays against the run that 90% of corner backs can't/don't make. It's obvious that you have to factor in the type of scheme and coverage you run but unless you're a guarantee lock-down corner, that's the case for every corner in the draft.

The forty is good for determining really fast or really slow players but you can't say a guy who runs a 4.48 will play football faster than a guy who runs a 4.52. Slight differences in forty times are often attributed to a player's ability to maximize efficiency getting off the line and reaching maximum speed as quick as possible. When you line up to cover someone in football, you're not in starting blocks, facing the direction you're going to run. You have to backpedal, turn and run. Those motions are completely different than running a straight forty yard dash. I think a lot of the agility drills are a better measurement of a player's football ability than the forty. I think things like forty times and bench press reps are just part of the combine to give people numbers to throw out. Everyone loves throwing stats and numbers around and forty times are ****.
 
Watch a dude like Fabian Moreau, who did nothing at UCLA and plays way slower than his 40 would make you think he is, but is 6 feet tall and ran a 4.35 get drafted ahead of Corn. Then watch Corn have a much better career in the NFL.
 
Corn's a gamer. There's no test for that, other than your play.

Also, he's quick in space, pivots well, transitions from the backpedal really well, and tackles extremely well.

Barring injury, he'll stick. I can see him getting some time next year in a set where he goes in as a nickel. Might also see him handling some returns
 
Like I said in another thread, I'm rolling with Corn over almost any draft eligible corner in this draft.

He is a flat out stud. Don't care what round he gets drafted in.

Talk to me in 5 years and let's see what type of pro he is
 
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It certainly doesn't help Elders' stock that he's smallish and ran a mediocre forty. Nobody's going to argue that. But if you want to justify drafting a less productive corner earlier simply because he ran a slightly faster forty yard dash, you're planning for failure. We've seen Corn Elder excel in man and zone coverage. We've seen him make plays against the run that 90% of corner backs can't/don't make. It's obvious that you have to factor in the type of scheme and coverage you run but unless you're a guarantee lock-down corner, that's the case for every corner in the draft.

The forty is good for determining really fast or really slow players but you can't say a guy who runs a 4.48 will play football faster than a guy who runs a 4.52. Slight differences in forty times are often attributed to a player's ability to maximize efficiency getting off the line and reaching maximum speed as quick as possible. When you line up to cover someone in football, you're not in starting blocks, facing the direction you're going to run. You have to backpedal, turn and run. Those motions are completely different than running a straight forty yard dash. I think a lot of the agility drills are a better measurement of a player's football ability than the forty. I think things like forty times and bench press reps are just part of the combine to give people numbers to throw out. Everyone loves throwing stats and numbers around and forty times are ****.

Yep. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, you can actually tell Corn doesn't have optimal form in the 40. He jumps out of the block and basically gets upright early. Stuff like that will tack a few tenths of a second to your 40. More importantly, none of that stuff matters in the game because you're not in that position when in coverage. Now, i'm not saying the 40 is worthless, as you need requisite straight line speed to cover vertical routes. The 40 is useful. It is a standardized test to use.

It needs context, and that's where lots of GMs fail. If I were in a front office, I'd look at the whole time vs splits - 0-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, etc. 3-Cone and SS are critical pieces of data. Especially with DBs. Think of all the variables that go into coverage. You need short area burst. You need hip flexibility. You need recognition. You need straight line speed. Etc. All of those can be the difference in a WR getting necessary separation.

Take a look at these numbers:

Malcolm Butler
5' 9.5"
187
4.62 40
4.27 SS
33.5 Vert
7.20 3-Cone
***Mind you, all of the above are PRO DAY results; not combine.

Butler isn't hidden in his scheme, either. He plays Man & Zone. He plays inside and outside. Someone is going to get great value in Corn. I hope it's the Phins. Also, throw me Jermaine Grace. Thanks in advance.
 
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I just don't see Elder falling to the 5th. He's too much of a player and there are too many teams in desperate need of CBs that can go. He may be 1/10th of a second slower than a handful of speedy guys. But game tape doesn't lie, and he'll productive immediately. He should be low 3rd to high 4th.
 
It certainly doesn't help Elders' stock that he's smallish and ran a mediocre forty. Nobody's going to argue that. But if you want to justify drafting a less productive corner earlier simply because he ran a slightly faster forty yard dash, you're planning for failure. We've seen Corn Elder excel in man and zone coverage. We've seen him make plays against the run that 90% of corner backs can't/don't make. It's obvious that you have to factor in the type of scheme and coverage you run but unless you're a guarantee lock-down corner, that's the case for every corner in the draft.

The forty is good for determining really fast or really slow players but you can't say a guy who runs a 4.48 will play football faster than a guy who runs a 4.52. Slight differences in forty times are often attributed to a player's ability to maximize efficiency getting off the line and reaching maximum speed as quick as possible. When you line up to cover someone in football, you're not in starting blocks, facing the direction you're going to run. You have to backpedal, turn and run. Those motions are completely different than running a straight forty yard dash. I think a lot of the agility drills are a better measurement of a player's football ability than the forty. I think things like forty times and bench press reps are just part of the combine to give people numbers to throw out. Everyone loves throwing stats and numbers around and forty times are ****.

Yep. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, you can actually tell Corn doesn't have optimal form in the 40. He jumps out of the block and basically gets upright early. Stuff like that will tack a few tenths of a second to your 40. More importantly, none of that stuff matters in the game because you're not in that position when in coverage. Now, i'm not saying the 40 is worthless, as you need requisite straight line speed to cover vertical routes. The 40 is useful. It is a standardized test to use.

It needs context, and that's where lots of GMs fail. If I were in a front office, I'd look at the whole time vs splits - 0-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, etc. 3-Cone and SS are critical pieces of data. Especially with DBs. Think of all the variables that go into coverage. You need short area burst. You need hip flexibility. You need recognition. You need straight line speed. Etc. All of those can be the difference in a WR getting necessary separation.

Take a look at these numbers:

Malcolm Butler
5' 9.5"
187
4.62 40
4.27 SS
33.5 Vert
7.20 3-Cone
***Mind you, all of the above are PRO DAY results; not combine.

Butler isn't hidden in his scheme, either. He plays Man & Zone. He plays inside and outside. Someone is going to get great value in Corn. I hope it's the Phins. Also, throw me Jermaine Grace. Thanks in advance.

That's why being a GM (and attributing Star ratings to HS prospects) is so difficult. When is the less athletic/more productive the better prospect, and when is the more athletic/less productive guy better? NFL teams put millions of dollars into it and get it wrong all the time. It's a tough job.

To play Devil's Advocate, I look at Macho Harris from Virginia Tech at the 2009 NFL Combine:

Macho Harris
5' 11"
187
4.68 40
3.98 SS (2nd best for DB at the Combine)
33.5 Vert
6.68 3-Cone (2nd best for DB at the Combine)

He was 1st Team All-ACC, 2nd Team All American. Had 15 INT's in college, 4 returned for TD's. Had a kickoff return for a TD. Played CB/S/WR/RB his Senior year. He was physical against the run, and ****y as ****. He made plays all over the field. I HATED this guy.

So his production, and short area/change of direction quickness were all ridiculous. But that 4.68....

He was drafted in the 5th, lasted 1 year in the NFL, and has been in the CFL since. He was too slow for CB, too small for Safety.

Now Elder's 4.55 is MUCH better than a 4.68. But it shows how important speed can be, even if you're off the charts in every other area. It wasn't that the slow 40 made Harris unproductive, it kept him from even making a team.
 
People in the know make a big deal about these so called "no football related movements" because they know they factor into a players ability to succeed at a certain level. Bench Press, agility drills , broad jump etch all provide information into a players physical ability to perform at a high level....

Football IQ is also a big part and goes with the player, the coaches scheme etc. Some guys have bad days, they may be sick, injured didn't warm up right and may not test well that day. It happens.

You can be the smartest player in the world but if you're FS running as 4.9 40 you will become a non factor at certain levels of play. Conversely, running a 4.28 doesn't automatically mean you'll be a great football player either. Nonetheless speed is important no matter how hard some of you pretend it isn't because a player you like is slow or whatever.
 
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Yet we have drooling faulktards on this site that say that a track 100 time of 11.1 is slow, and that you can't have too many of those guys in the DB backfield and be good. These low IQ imbeciles are running Bandy down.

Corn is fast enough, has good instincts, takes good angles, comes up for the run and sticks his head in there, and tackles like a mothertrucker. Give me that please.

If you think a top speed of 11.1 is good enough then Show everybody an example of a defensive backfield consisting of a bunch of guys whos top speed in the 100m is 11.1. Instead of calling people names prove that BS.

Bandy still young and can improve on his 11.1 so it remains to be seen if he's in this category.


If you can show me a star DB who's top speed in the 100m was 11.1 I can assure you he was surrounded by some talented players or his had to scheme to protect him due to his lack of speed. I'm talkin big time div 1 level football.
 
I really don't care about 100m speed

Only idiots obsess at that.

I care about speed on the football field

And yes, you're still an idiot, obsessing over meaningless, but not even bad 11.1 times for a freshmen that's not even a track guy
 
It certainly doesn't help Elders' stock that he's smallish and ran a mediocre forty. Nobody's going to argue that. But if you want to justify drafting a less productive corner earlier simply because he ran a slightly faster forty yard dash, you're planning for failure. We've seen Corn Elder excel in man and zone coverage. We've seen him make plays against the run that 90% of corner backs can't/don't make. It's obvious that you have to factor in the type of scheme and coverage you run but unless you're a guarantee lock-down corner, that's the case for every corner in the draft.

The forty is good for determining really fast or really slow players but you can't say a guy who runs a 4.48 will play football faster than a guy who runs a 4.52. Slight differences in forty times are often attributed to a player's ability to maximize efficiency getting off the line and reaching maximum speed as quick as possible. When you line up to cover someone in football, you're not in starting blocks, facing the direction you're going to run. You have to backpedal, turn and run. Those motions are completely different than running a straight forty yard dash. I think a lot of the agility drills are a better measurement of a player's football ability than the forty. I think things like forty times and bench press reps are just part of the combine to give people numbers to throw out. Everyone loves throwing stats and numbers around and forty times are ****.

Yep. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, you can actually tell Corn doesn't have optimal form in the 40. He jumps out of the block and basically gets upright early. Stuff like that will tack a few tenths of a second to your 40. More importantly, none of that stuff matters in the game because you're not in that position when in coverage. Now, i'm not saying the 40 is worthless, as you need requisite straight line speed to cover vertical routes. The 40 is useful. It is a standardized test to use.

It needs context, and that's where lots of GMs fail. If I were in a front office, I'd look at the whole time vs splits - 0-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, etc. 3-Cone and SS are critical pieces of data. Especially with DBs. Think of all the variables that go into coverage. You need short area burst. You need hip flexibility. You need recognition. You need straight line speed. Etc. All of those can be the difference in a WR getting necessary separation.

Take a look at these numbers:

Malcolm Butler
5' 9.5"
187
4.62 40
4.27 SS
33.5 Vert
7.20 3-Cone
***Mind you, all of the above are PRO DAY results; not combine.

Butler isn't hidden in his scheme, either. He plays Man & Zone. He plays inside and outside. Someone is going to get great value in Corn. I hope it's the Phins. Also, throw me Jermaine Grace. Thanks in advance.

That's why being a GM (and attributing Star ratings to HS prospects) is so difficult. When is the less athletic/more productive the better prospect, and when is the more athletic/less productive guy better? NFL teams put millions of dollars into it and get it wrong all the time. It's a tough job.

To play Devil's Advocate, I look at Macho Harris from Virginia Tech at the 2009 NFL Combine:

Macho Harris
5' 11"
187
4.68 40
3.98 SS (2nd best for DB at the Combine)
33.5 Vert
6.68 3-Cone (2nd best for DB at the Combine)

He was 1st Team All-ACC, 2nd Team All American. Had 15 INT's in college, 4 returned for TD's. Had a kickoff return for a TD. Played CB/S/WR/RB his Senior year. He was physical against the run, and ****y as ****. He made plays all over the field. I HATED this guy.

So his production, and short area/change of direction quickness were all ridiculous. But that 4.68....

He was drafted in the 5th, lasted 1 year in the NFL, and has been in the CFL since. He was too slow for CB, too small for Safety.

Now Elder's 4.55 is MUCH better than a 4.68. But it shows how important speed can be, even if you're off the charts in every other area. It wasn't that the slow 40 made Harris unproductive, it kept him from even making a team.

There's definitely a floor as to how slow you can be and still be an NFL corner. There's an ocean difference between running 4.55 and 4.68. That's not something as insignificant as improper form. I mentioned earlier that the 40 is good for identifying the really fast and really slow guys but isn't a great indicator for the majority of guys somewhere in the middle.

But you're right. It is sort of a crap shoot. There's plenty of stories of physical freaks wowing people at the combine and totally flopping in the league. There's also guys who didn't test well who became stars. I guess the best option is to not put all your eggs in one basket and hope for the best.
 
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Watch a dude like Fabian Moreau, who did nothing at UCLA and plays way slower than his 40 would make you think he is, but is 6 feet tall and ran a 4.35 get drafted ahead of Corn. Then watch Corn have a much better career in the NFL.

I don't know if you're trying to troll me or not (probably) but Fabian was a 3-time all conference player and a true lockdown CB. He didn't get a lot of picks because all UCLA plays is man and teams stopped trying him after his Sophomore year.

LOL @ "he plays slower".

Corn is not even in the same stratosphere as Fabian. He was being pegged as a possible 1st/2nd rounder before he even ran the forty.
 
Corn is Brandon Harris 2.0 IMO.

Small. Not a burner. Savvy. Had a nice college career.

Very similar players.
 
I really don't care about 100m speed

Only idiots obsess at that.

I care about speed on the football field

And yes, you're still an idiot, obsessing over meaningless, but not even bad 11.1 times for a freshmen that's not even a track guy

You probably don't care cause you don't get it. It's a good thing you have zero involvement with the sport.

You don't have to be a "track guy" to play football but you still need speed rather you believe it or not. It's common sense. Bandy has time to improve on his 100m time from now until he concludes his career at Miami and I'm confident he will.

It's silly to think that a secondary full of guys with a top speed between 11.1-11.5 can do anything in big time cfb. You sure as he'll ain't winning no championships. You can't show a secondary to back up your belief. There's a reason for that.
 
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I'll never understand the infatuation of how well a player does non-football things in a non-football environment. If a guy can play, he can play. If you watch tape and the dude is all over the field making plays who cares if what his 40 time is? At no time during a football game does a player line up in a track starting block with no pads or helmet and just run in a straight line halfway down the field. The only time any of these arbitrary measurements should matter would be if you have two guys graded exactly the same and you need some sort of tie breaker.


I agree with what you posted. But I think the theory of NFL teams is that you can coach a player to dodge defenders but can't coach them to run faster.
 
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