3-4 and 4-3 Under - the front 7 (long)

[CaneHammer]

I said this in another post. In rewatching the Duke game, our LBs (other than 52) suck complete ***. 59 is garbage. Slow and zero instincts. He guesses (wrong) and usually plugs the wrong hole. He is even worse in coverage. Duke picked on 31, 59 any time they needed yardage. When it came to the read option, they were horrible. I do not think we could play man under and yield much different results.

I think the fact that a lot of our players look slow and have zero instincts is because this defensive philosophy sucks the life out of using your instincts.

The ironic thing about this complex "multiple" scheme is that these kids aren't learning how to play the game.

It's like taking a basketball team full of quick twitches black athletes from the inner city ('90 UNLV) and asking them to walk the ball up the court, run set plays, and sprint back to play a soft *** 2-3 zone coverage.

I am not a huge fan of the defense even in the pros. However, I get what it is intended to do. I think our problem is compounded by trotting garbage players out there, ****** coaching, on top of a more read and react scheme. Folks should also realize there are reads to be made by the DL, even in a single gap defense. It is not just penetrate. Problem with our DL, it sucks at penetrating consistently.

Things we suck at which are a sign of **** coaching:

-inability to get the play call in so the players can get lined up quickly.
****This compounds the problem of having a "complex" scheme. (Irony) By the looks of things we did nothing complex this year.

-Lack of significant/simply adjustments in order to stop what the opposing offense is doing.
****My favorite is continuing to play two high safety when people are pushing the ball down our throats with the run. It took us till playing Louisville to see some 8 in the box. Do our safeties suck that bad, that we need both of them 10 to 15 yards off the LOS?

-**** poor defensive play calling
****This is actually highlighted in the first bullet. We seem to be a step slow in getting the call in. I believe this is likely Coach D is having difficulty selecting a call. We seem to be a step behind, especially in the second half after the Opposing OC peels the first layer back on our Defensive Playcalls. I could go on for a while but I would just be repeating the same ol BS that has been discussed already.

 

[jerzeycane]

Another excellent article on Carroll's version of the 4-3 under on Grantland

http://grantland.com/features/whos-laughing-now/

Just a couple of snippets:

Specifically, Carroll often calls for at least one defensive lineman to two-gap in an effort to get the best of both worlds: With one or two linemen two-gapping to clog additional running lanes, the remaining defenders are free to attack their gaps or drop into pass coverage.4 Hybrid defenses that can steal back a gap have become increasingly necessary as modern offenses tilt the arithmetic in their favor by using the quarterback as a running threat in the read-option.

In addition to Carroll’s tactics, the Seahawks’ personnel dictate changes. Seattle’s defense is talented, but it’s also rather eclectic: Tall and skinny, short and stout, Seattle’s defenders come in all shapes and sizes. As just one example, the Seahawks start 254-pound Chris Clemons at one defensive end spot and 323-pound Red Bryant at the other.5 But Bryant is a perfect two-gapper, and Carroll often places him directly across from an offensive guard or tackle to blow up running plays to the offense’s strong side.

While these wrinkles trace back to Carroll’s previous NFL stints, he refined the art of adapting them to his talent while coaching college. “That really came out of my time at SC,” Carroll told Seahawks.com. “We forced [young players] to play, in essence. And then we discovered if we asked them to do things they could do uniquely well, that they could elevate faster and find their confidence sooner.”

Sherman’s skills allow Carroll to put his spin on old, conservative Cover Three: While this is zone coverage, Seattle’s cornerbacks play tight press coverage on the outside wide receivers as long as a receiver’s initial steps are straight downfield. Notice the coverage drops from the underneath defenders in the GIF below: This is a zone defense all the way, except for those press corners.

Carroll’s defense provides all of the benefits of traditional Cover Three — namely a deep middle safety and excellent run support — without conceding easy throws. Cover Three is as old as the forward pass, but Carroll’s Seahawks have made it modern by making it their own. And the result has been the best pass defense in the NFL in more than a decade.

 

[Muecane]

To add to this discussion after witnessing Carroll's defensive beatdown of the Broncos

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2012/5/7/2999852/on-seahawks-defensive-scheme-versatility-diversity

"Our defense is a 4-3 scheme with 3-4 personnel. It's just utilizing the special talents of our guys." - Pete Carroll

I think it's safe to assume that hybrid 4-3/3-4 defense are becoming more and more standard in the NFL and college. Both Alabama and FSU run these types on hybrid defenses same as us. It's just that ours sucks.

 

[jmbflame21]

To add to this discussion after witnessing Carroll's defensive beatdown of the Broncos

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2012/5/7/2999852/on-seahawks-defensive-scheme-versatility-diversity

"Our defense is a 4-3 scheme with 3-4 personnel. It's just utilizing the special talents of our guys." - Pete Carroll

I think it's safe to assume that hybrid 4-3/3-4 defense are becoming more and more standard in the NFL and college. Both Alabama and FSU run these types on hybrid defenses same as us. It's just that ours sucks.

Our personnel sucked *** last year.

Getting rid of Gaines, Cornelius, Porter, Robinson, Green, etc. Will IMPROVE the defense. We are replacing marginal D-1 players with highly talented prospects. Not to mention, Rodgers and Highsmith leaving is a tremendous upgrade to the secondary. (It is my opinion that Golden played less talented seniors to "honor" them for sticking with us the last 3 years during "the cloud")

Now that the 2010 class is mostly gone and we have the small 2011 class and the rest of Golden's classes filling up the roster, I can see us improving bcuz he will not have to play any crappy seniors anymore (only seniors that will play this year actually deserve to be on the field, Chick, Perryman, Gunter, and Pierre).

We are now a young, talented team. I cant wait to see what this talent infusion can do for our defense. Spring practice is going to be exciting.

 

[terra99pin]

To add to this discussion after witnessing Carroll's defensive beatdown of the Broncos

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2012/5/7/2999852/on-seahawks-defensive-scheme-versatility-diversity

"Our defense is a 4-3 scheme with 3-4 personnel. It's just utilizing the special talents of our guys." - Pete Carroll

I think it's safe to assume that hybrid 4-3/3-4 defense are becoming more and more standard in the NFL and college. Both Alabama and FSU run these types on hybrid defenses same as us. It's just that ours sucks.

Our personnel sucked *** last year.

Getting rid of Gaines, Cornelius, Porter, Robinson, Green, etc. Will IMPROVE the defense. We are replacing marginal D-1 players with highly talented prospects. Not to mention, Rodgers and Highsmith leaving is a tremendous upgrade to the secondary. (It is my opinion that Golden played less talented seniors to "honor" them for sticking with us the last 3 years during "the cloud")

Now that the 2010 class is mostly gone and we have the small 2011 class and the rest of Golden's classes filling up the roster, I can see us improving bcuz he will not have to play any crappy seniors anymore (only seniors that will play this year actually deserve to be on the field, Chick, Perryman, Gunter, and Pierre).

We are now a young, talented team. I cant wait to see what this talent infusion can do for our defense. Spring practice is going to be exciting.

Agreed. Extremely excited to see (a) athletic linebackers like Grace, Kirby, a healthy Figs, Owens and Young taking the snaps of Gaines, Cornelius and hopefully Amrbrister and (b) whether Thomas, Moten, Heurtelou or Wyche can start to collapse pockets. We did start to get that edge rush element this year (and I expect it to get even better next year), but we will only start causing chaos in the passing game when we combine that with interior penetration.

 

[terra99pin]

In addition to Carroll’s tactics, the Seahawks’ personnel dictate changes. Seattle’s defense is talented, but it’s also rather eclectic: Tall and skinny, short and stout, Seattle’s defenders come in all shapes and sizes. As just one example, the Seahawks start 254-pound Chris Clemons at one defensive end spot and 323-pound Red Bryant at the other.5 But Bryant is a perfect two-gapper, and Carroll often places him directly across from an offensive guard or tackle to blow up running plays to the offense’s strong side.

While these wrinkles trace back to Carroll’s previous NFL stints, he refined the art of adapting them to his talent while coaching college. “That really came out of my time at SC,” Carroll told Seahawks.com. “We forced [young players] to play, in essence. And then we discovered if we asked them to do things they could do uniquely well, that they could elevate faster and find their confidence sooner.”

Question about our 3-4 scheme as it relates to this. When we run our 3-4, do both of the DE's 2-gap? Or do we sometimes give one of them a 1 gap responsibility? I ask because I'm trying to figure out how Chad Thomas will fit into this scheme.

Or perhaps he won't have his hand on the ground at all?

 

[CANE]

Hopefully...I really hope because the JAGs are gone and MIAMI is more athletic at LB, DE and S, the staff can implement a more attacking style to this defense. Great video. Complete with concepts and their explanations many NFL and D1 examples. Hopefully Chad will be getting at the QB like this!

[video=youtube;qhHxtZHuF40]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhHxtZHuF40[/video]

 

[ghost2]

In addition to Carroll’s tactics, the Seahawks’ personnel dictate changes. Seattle’s defense is talented, but it’s also rather eclectic: Tall and skinny, short and stout, Seattle’s defenders come in all shapes and sizes. As just one example, the Seahawks start 254-pound Chris Clemons at one defensive end spot and 323-pound Red Bryant at the other.5 But Bryant is a perfect two-gapper, and Carroll often places him directly across from an offensive guard or tackle to blow up running plays to the offense’s strong side.

While these wrinkles trace back to Carroll’s previous NFL stints, he refined the art of adapting them to his talent while coaching college. “That really came out of my time at SC,” Carroll told Seahawks.com. “We forced [young players] to play, in essence. And then we discovered if we asked them to do things they could do uniquely well, that they could elevate faster and find their confidence sooner.”

Question about our 3-4 scheme as it relates to this. When we run our 3-4, do both of the DE's 2-gap? Or do we sometimes give one of them a 1 gap responsibility? I ask because I'm trying to figure out how Chad Thomas will fit into this scheme.

Or perhaps he won't have his hand on the ground at all?

Pretty sure in this scheme none of the DL 1- or 2- gap exclusively. When we play with a 0-tech NT, he'll primarily 2-gap, but we'll see some 4-front 1-gap looks as well.

I too am intrigued as to how Chad Thomas fits. To me, it depends on where his frame tops out... Initially, I can definitely see him as a Jack backer, but he may grow into a more traditional DE by his Jr. year. Either way, I don't see Thomas doing much 2-gapping. I posted in another thread that it wouldn't surprise me if Thomas became what Chickillo was supposed to be, but never had the athletic skillset for. Someone who can set the edge against the run but also pursue and cause havok in the backfield when called upon to do so.

 

[terra99pin]

In addition to Carroll’s tactics, the Seahawks’ personnel dictate changes. Seattle’s defense is talented, but it’s also rather eclectic: Tall and skinny, short and stout, Seattle’s defenders come in all shapes and sizes. As just one example, the Seahawks start 254-pound Chris Clemons at one defensive end spot and 323-pound Red Bryant at the other.5 But Bryant is a perfect two-gapper, and Carroll often places him directly across from an offensive guard or tackle to blow up running plays to the offense’s strong side.

While these wrinkles trace back to Carroll’s previous NFL stints, he refined the art of adapting them to his talent while coaching college. “That really came out of my time at SC,” Carroll told Seahawks.com. “We forced [young players] to play, in essence. And then we discovered if we asked them to do things they could do uniquely well, that they could elevate faster and find their confidence sooner.”

Question about our 3-4 scheme as it relates to this. When we run our 3-4, do both of the DE's 2-gap? Or do we sometimes give one of them a 1 gap responsibility? I ask because I'm trying to figure out how Chad Thomas will fit into this scheme.

Or perhaps he won't have his hand on the ground at all?

Pretty sure in this scheme none of the DL 1- or 2- gap exclusively. When we play with a 0-tech NT, he'll primarily 2-gap, but we'll see some 4-front 1-gap looks as well.

I too am intrigued as to how Chad Thomas fits. To me, it depends on where his frame tops out... Initially, I can definitely see him as a Jack backer, but he may grow into a more traditional DE by his Jr. year. Either way, I don't see Thomas doing much 2-gapping. I posted in another thread that it wouldn't surprise me if Thomas became what Chickillo was supposed to be, but never had the athletic skillset for. Someone who can set the edge against the run but also pursue and cause havok in the backfield when called upon to do so.

Yeah. I really like Golden, and I support him, but this is the one thing that scares me. I'm not sure that it's realistic to expect college guys to learn (and become fluent in) a system where the philosophy of how you attack the offense can change so much from play to play. It potentially seems too complex.

 

[ghost2]

It is complex, but I believe the scheme itself (or variations thereof) can be run here, or anywhere. Saban runs a version of it. Where the rubber hits the proverbial road to me is PLAYCALLING. It's all well and good to have a versatile and effective scheme - but it means nothing if the coaches can't get kids in the correct position to make plays down-to-down.

Next year I think we'll take a *small* step forward defensively (out of the triple-digit stats at least!) 2015 we'll have an athletic, mature team top to bottom. If we can't field a decent defense by then, we never will under this defensive staff, IMO.

 

[Canesfan1899]

We need more threads like this instead of the garbage that the board has turned, including my last thread.

 

[KevinCaneFace]

First time poster here. I'm not sure if all the threads are like this but I'm excited to find a Canes board that people are actually talking football. Where has this been? All I see is Dno this and Dno that. Don't get me wrong, I was hoping for a change after last season but it's July and there will be no change before September 1st so might as well move on. I actually feel like the defense takes a big step forward this year based on talent alone. We've gotten rid of some of the non-BSC level talent and have some exciting prospects like Wyche and others. Glad to have found this thread!

 

[canefrommiami]

I agree with Kevin how refreshing to actually see football discussed. Is it possible that the initial poster could update this with this years personnel as they sit it fitting. I realize it's a lot of work but I think it might be quite interesting. First post here as well.

 

[capefearcane]

Sure hope you are right, if not ..... well here we go again.

 

[ZCanes]

 

[@bdubya4201]

I think our defense is improving. No idea how you guys can't see it.

 

[TheU1984]

I think our defense is improving. No idea how you guys can't see it.

**** you.

 

[ghost2]

Bump. Obviously this was in reference to a potential Golden/DNof scheme so ignore that part lol. The info is still valid though I think.