Article: "Scheme" vs. "Philosophy" - what's really broken?

Article: "Scheme" vs. "Philosophy" - what's really broken?

ghost2

Comments (92)

Also, why is the discussion when it comes to Golden always about defense?

The offense, under Golden, has put together maybe ONE solid game against a very good. That's it. Otherwise, they end up sucking against real teams just like the defense. That's why all this assistant coach talk is nonsense.

The big problem is defense and it trickles over to the offense. Against Louisville the offense was handcuffed majorly by the playcalling and had no chance of having success. Against Nebraska the offense was fine, scored 31 and was the only reason the game looked close as the defense was just an absolute disaster. And against GT the offense didn't have a chance to do much as the defense never got off the field. Sure they turned it over a couple of times, but the defense was on the field 40+ minutes not because of the offense, but because they couldn't get a stop. The offense still averaged around 7 yards per play I believe. The fact of the matter is the offense has not been a cause for any of the losses outside of Louisville. The defense is always the main reason we lose.

Oh bull****. The offense has **** the bed against almost every good team we've played here. The entire team sucks, but Golden is so intertwined with the defense that people ignore how mediocre the offense is. No specific unit is "responsible" for a loss--they both suck. One, we scored 24 when it counted against Nebraska--a garbage TD with under a minute left doesn't mean anything. So we scored the same amount of points when it counted against Nebraska as McNeese St. Big whoop. This is a team that hasn't scored more than 20 against FSU in Golden's tenure. That scored 3 points against Notre Dame. 13 points against Kansas St. Put up 28 rushing yards against Virginia Tech last year and was 3-12 on 3rd down conversions. 9 points in a bowl game.

So you can pretend that the defense is "always the main reason we lose" but the main reason we lose is because we're an awful team. Our offense happens to do fine against terrible teams, but then usually comes up short against good teams. That's because our offense isn't very good, so a new defensive coordinator or philosophy on defense isn't the be all end all. We've been consistently mediocre at best against competent teams in all facets of the game.
 
You know where I stand, Ghost. This is a core philosophy issue that permeates every aspect of how we run this program. From how kids buy in to how it trickles into our in-game decisions/approach (generally) to the most noticeable symptom: the scheme. The root cause is the philosophy and I haven't seen any evidence that it will be adjusted.

such a shame, guy gets head handed to him in recruiting, he makes adjustments. Get's head handed on Defense, blames everyone but way it's run. We all get it, like we got the recruiting thing!!!
 
Also, why is the discussion when it comes to Golden always about defense?

The offense, under Golden, has put together maybe ONE solid game against a very good. That's it. Otherwise, they end up sucking against real teams just like the defense. That's why all this assistant coach talk is nonsense.

The big problem is defense and it trickles over to the offense. Against Louisville the offense was handcuffed majorly by the playcalling and had no chance of having success. Against Nebraska the offense was fine, scored 31 and was the only reason the game looked close as the defense was just an absolute disaster. And against GT the offense didn't have a chance to do much as the defense never got off the field. Sure they turned it over a couple of times, but the defense was on the field 40+ minutes not because of the offense, but because they couldn't get a stop. The offense still averaged around 7 yards per play I believe. The fact of the matter is the offense has not been a cause for any of the losses outside of Louisville. The defense is always the main reason we lose.

Oh bull****. The offense has **** the bed against almost every good team we've played here. The entire team sucks, but Golden is so intertwined with the defense that people ignore how mediocre the offense is. No specific unit is "responsible" for a loss--they both suck. One, we scored 24 when it counted against Nebraska--a garbage TD with under a minute left doesn't mean anything. So we scored the same amount of points when it counted against Nebraska as McNeese St. Big whoop. This is a team that hasn't scored more than 20 against FSU in Golden's tenure. That scored 3 points against Notre Dame. 13 points against Kansas St. Put up 28 rushing yards against Virginia Tech last year and was 3-12 on 3rd down conversions. 9 points in a bowl game.

So you can pretend that the defense is "always the main reason we lose" but the main reason we lose is because we're an awful team. Our offense happens to do fine against terrible teams, but then usually comes up short against good teams. That's because our offense isn't very good, so a new defensive coordinator or philosophy on defense isn't the be all end all. We've been consistently mediocre at best against competent teams in all facets of the game.

I wasn't talking about past years. Those have no effect on this season. I never said the offense was great or anything like that, but the offense is not the sole reason the team is as bad as it is. If the defense stops Nebraska and GT like they are supposed to, the offense does more than enough to win both of those. If the defense showed up at Louisville and they didn't handcuff Kaaya, then the offense may have even been able to help win that one too.

Sure, over the years under Golden the whole team has sucked mightily and I won't dispute that. I wish for him to be gone, but I am able to see the defense is the biggest problem of the 3 phases and is the main reason we are sitting at 4-3. I don't see how you can sit here and say the offense comes up short in the losses when the defense gave 350 yards rushing and 41 points to Nebraska. Was the offense supposed to score 42? Was the offense supposed to help stop the GT offense and keep them from 350 yards rushing and 40+ minutes of possession? Sure, the turnovers didn't help, but they weren't what killed the chances for a win. The defense's inability to make a stop was why GT won the game. The offense was gaining over 7 yards per play and had they had more than 7 total possessions, they probably put up around 30 which should have easily been more than enough with any competent defense.
 
Ghost:

Love ya bro, but our base defense is NOT the Under. And it is certainly not the 4-3 over cover 4 of Narduzzi.

It's the Parcells 3-4. Okie front, cover 3.
 
Also, why is the discussion when it comes to Golden always about defense?

The offense, under Golden, has put together maybe ONE solid game against a very good. That's it. Otherwise, they end up sucking against real teams just like the defense. That's why all this assistant coach talk is nonsense.

The big problem is defense and it trickles over to the offense. Against Louisville the offense was handcuffed majorly by the playcalling and had no chance of having success. Against Nebraska the offense was fine, scored 31 and was the only reason the game looked close as the defense was just an absolute disaster. And against GT the offense didn't have a chance to do much as the defense never got off the field. Sure they turned it over a couple of times, but the defense was on the field 40+ minutes not because of the offense, but because they couldn't get a stop. The offense still averaged around 7 yards per play I believe. The fact of the matter is the offense has not been a cause for any of the losses outside of Louisville. The defense is always the main reason we lose.

Oh bull****. The offense has **** the bed against almost every good team we've played here. The entire team sucks, but Golden is so intertwined with the defense that people ignore how mediocre the offense is. No specific unit is "responsible" for a loss--they both suck. One, we scored 24 when it counted against Nebraska--a garbage TD with under a minute left doesn't mean anything. So we scored the same amount of points when it counted against Nebraska as McNeese St. Big whoop. This is a team that hasn't scored more than 20 against FSU in Golden's tenure. That scored 3 points against Notre Dame. 13 points against Kansas St. Put up 28 rushing yards against Virginia Tech last year and was 3-12 on 3rd down conversions. 9 points in a bowl game.

So you can pretend that the defense is "always the main reason we lose" but the main reason we lose is because we're an awful team. Our offense happens to do fine against terrible teams, but then usually comes up short against good teams. That's because our offense isn't very good, so a new defensive coordinator or philosophy on defense isn't the be all end all. We've been consistently mediocre at best against competent teams in all facets of the game.

I wasn't talking about past years. Those have no effect on this season. I never said the offense was great or anything like that, but the offense is not the sole reason the team is as bad as it is. If the defense stops Nebraska and GT like they are supposed to, the offense does more than enough to win both of those. If the defense showed up at Louisville and they didn't handcuff Kaaya, then the offense may have even been able to help win that one too.

Sure, over the years under Golden the whole team has sucked mightily and I won't dispute that. I wish for him to be gone, but I am able to see the defense is the biggest problem of the 3 phases and is the main reason we are sitting at 4-3. I don't see how you can sit here and say the offense comes up short in the losses when the defense gave 350 yards rushing and 41 points to Nebraska. Was the offense supposed to score 42? Was the offense supposed to help stop the GT offense and keep them from 350 yards rushing and 40+ minutes of possession? Sure, the turnovers didn't help, but they weren't what killed the chances for a win. The defense's inability to make a stop was why GT won the game. The offense was gaining over 7 yards per play and had they had more than 7 total possessions, they probably put up around 30 which should have easily been more than enough with any competent defense.

What are you talking about? This thread is partly about whether a defensive philosophy change would would actually have a real effect on the football team. That discussion isn't limited to this year.

Again, this isn't about whether the offense should HAVE to score 42. No, they shouldn't. But does that mean that the offense had a good performance? No, it doesn't. And sure, the offense didn't have the ball much against GT--but they also only had ONE THIRD DOWN CONVERSION. ONE. The reason we lost the GT game is because we are a bad, bad football team. The offense was gaining a ****load of yards per play--and still couldn't convert third downs.

This isn't a good offense. This is an offense that ***** the bed against most competent teams. The defense just happens to be a lot ****tier so people ignore it and convince themselves that if the defense got fixed then the team would be fine because the offense is good. That's not the case. Every aspect of this team sucks because of Golden's philosophy, which is completely opposite of what winning football is down here.
 
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Ghost:

Love ya bro, but our base defense is NOT the Under. And it is certainly not the 4-3 over cover 4 of Narduzzi.

It's the Parcells 3-4. Okie front, cover 3.


I defer to your greater wisdom, GS. Could you elaborate on some of the differences between those? (Doesn't have to be in this thread - I'm just genuinely curious.)
 
Yup Lu - the impetus behind my post was some of the things you've been saying really even since last year regarding philosophy on both sides of the ball. I like how you put it - the scheme is a symptom of the philosophy. Until the philosophy changes, it really doesn't matter what scheme we run.
This! When I first read the title, my first thought was: scheme is symptom...which you just qualified. Thx. Great post.
 
You guys love to argue.

Nice post Ghost.

I am interested in these rumors of a D'Onofrio/Golden disconnect and if they really exist or if they are a creation of the pending reality that one or both are losing their job at season's end. Either way, there was no way Golden was firing D before this season. He was giving him the season with perceived better talent. We still suck.
 
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There's been a lot of vitriol on this and many boards regarding the ineffectiveness of the defense which I won't rehash in this post - we all know the defense is broken. What I'd like to explore here is the difference between a busted scheme and a defunct philosophy.


The Scheme

In a post I made a while ago - still tacked above I think - I got into the "on-paper" aspects of the 4-3 Under/Flex and how it could be utilized here. This is the scheme we "run" (run being used loosely right now...) If you picked up the Miami defensive playbook and thumbed through it, I'd expect you'd see a lot of plays that look eerily similar to what's being run at Alabama or even better, Michigan State.

Just to review, the 4-3 under scheme itself requires a wide-body NT, versatile DEs who can get to the passer but also set an edge, and heady, athletic LBs who can play in space and downhill. There's also a hybrid DE/LB (the "Jack" or "Elephant" position - think McCord) who's primarily used as a pass-rusher. The DBs by-and-large play mainly cover-3 or cover-0 depending on the situation.

For me, the scheme in and of itself is not the problem. When run with purpose and aggression, pressure can come from anywhere on the field and wreak havoc on traditional and spread offenses alike. (Again, see Narduzzi at MSU.) I'd go so far as to argue that the recent shift to the Flex for a lot of teams is a direct result of the dramatic rise in spread offenses over the last 10 years. That said, no defensive scheme is a problem on paper. The issues arise when coaches have to teach, implement, and gameplan the scheme both mid-week and on Saturdays. This leads me to -

The Philosophy

To me, this is where there is a massive disconnect between what this defense is, and what it could/should be. We've seen this defense be aggressive at times (Duke, even this past week at Cincy occasionally) - that's what's so frustrating. The problem seems to be that D'Nofrio is trying to defend EVERYTHING simultaneously, and ends up defending nothing well. And when we are attacking and the opposing offense gains a chunk of yards, it seems we go into defensive panic mode far too soon. Were we really that afraid of Georgia Tech's deep ball that we gave up on stopping the dive? Did we really need to drop 8 into coverage on the 10-yard line? These are the differences to me between an "attacking" philosophy and a "reactive" philosophy. Note here that the issue is still the playcalling/gameplan, not the plays themselves.


Can we fix it?

This is where the rubber hits the proverbial road. In my post from last year, I wondered if the scheme was too complex for the college game. I don't wonder that anymore - it's not. I now believe that it's D'Nofrio's PHILOSOPHY that asks our players to do too much, not the scheme itself. Example: Tyriq McCord should be playing downhill 70-80% of the time. Period. That's his primary skillset. I'm not saying don't drop him into coverage occasionally - just enough to keep offenses guessing as to where the pressure is - but any more that a couple times per game and you're nullifying your player's natural ability. Perryman and Kirby should be blitzing the **** out of the A gap so that when one or both drop into zone, there's still pressure (say from Bush or Howard) and deception. Or if you don't trust the rush from the back 7, that's fine - use a LB as a spy on a running QB or shifty RB and just say "go where he goes." (Incidentally, that's exactly what Narduzzi did to help take away Abdullah in the MSU-Nebraska game...)

Basically, it all comes down to trust. Right now, I don't believe D'Nofrio trusts our personnel to execute his plays, and so when the plays inevitably go awry mid-game, he reverts back to the dreaded "bend-don't-break" philosophy that simply ends up breaking over the course of a game. Some would argue that even if we change DCs that this is GOLDEN'S scheme (which it is) so it won't matter. I'm not so sure yet. It is definitely Golden's intent to have our defense play 4-3 Under, but I'm not convinced that our DC is running it the way our Head Coach wants it run anymore. If there is a change in the defensive coaching staff after the season and Golden remains the head coach, 2015 becomes very intriguing and I'll be very interested in re-visiting the "scheme" v. "philosophy" discussion again.

Just my .02

Narduzzi runs the 4-3 based off what they Canes ran in the 80's.
 
You guys love to argue.

Nice post Ghost.

I am interested in these rumors of a D'Onofrio/Golden disconnect and if they really exist or if they are a creation of the pending reality that one or both are losing their job at season's end. Either way, there was no way Golden was firing D before this season. He was giving him the season with perceived better talent. We still suck.

And as I stated over and over again, it was never about the talent.
 
You guys love to argue.

Nice post Ghost.

I am interested in these rumors of a D'Onofrio/Golden disconnect and if they really exist or if they are a creation of the pending reality that one or both are losing their job at season's end. Either way, there was no way Golden was firing D before this season. He was giving him the season with perceived better talent. We still suck.

And as I stated over and over again, it was never about the talent.

Some of our problems were/are about talent and depth. Especially on the defensive line.
 
You guys love to argue.

Nice post Ghost.

I am interested in these rumors of a D'Onofrio/Golden disconnect and if they really exist or if they are a creation of the pending reality that one or both are losing their job at season's end. Either way, there was no way Golden was firing D before this season. He was giving him the season with perceived better talent. We still suck.

And as I stated over and over again, it was never about the talent.

Some of our problems were/are about talent and depth. Especially on the defensive line.

I'm very surprised people still believe this.
 
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You guys love to argue.

Nice post Ghost.

I am interested in these rumors of a D'Onofrio/Golden disconnect and if they really exist or if they are a creation of the pending reality that one or both are losing their job at season's end. Either way, there was no way Golden was firing D before this season. He was giving him the season with perceived better talent. We still suck.

And as I stated over and over again, it was never about the talent.

Some of our problems were/are about talent and depth. Especially on the defensive line.

Disagree bro. What we are asking our Dline to do is the issue. Not the talent.

I would also go as far as saying the way we are using Chick as well. Kid should be playing at 255-260.
 
One of my biggest frustration is Offense's are getting quicker and play speed games. Here we are trying to bulk up and slow down based off the 80's big ten offense teams.

Where is the aggression and speed defense this U used to be known for???
 
Ghost,

I'm assuming you don't mean that this 4-3 under/flex is the same as Jimmy Johnson's 4-3 slide? I don't think Jimmy ever employed a hybrid LB/DE. I'm not sure if he employed a wide-body NT, either. Maybe I'm wrong.
 
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One of my biggest frustration is Offense's are getting quicker and play speed games. Here we are trying to bulk up and slow down based off the 80's big ten offense teams.

Where is the aggression and speed defense this U used to be known for???

Actually, in a recent interview, Golden claimed this scheme allows us to get more speed on the field.
 
Ghost,

I'm assuming you don't mean that this 4-3 under/flex is the same as Jimmy Johnson's 4-3 slide? I don't think Jimmy ever employed a hybrid LB/DE. I'm not sure if he employed a wide-body NT, either. Maybe I'm wrong.

No I don't think it's the same as Jimmy's D at all. I think throughout CFB you're seeing a lot more "hybrid" everything - tweener LB/DE, "Rover" LB/S hybrids, DEs that can slide inside on passing downs.
 
Al's philosophy, like his scheme, is all a bunch of bull****.

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