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OT/ CanesFam....dsddcane is doing Better...

TheOriginalCane said:
I completely understand that. Which is why a 100% private solution and a 100% government solution are both bad options.

Government needs to be involved in areas where private industry is slow to act or does not have a profit motive. The CDC already goes out and walks the earth looking for this ****e, and we need to find a way to harness a public-private partnership.

At any rate, I still think there is SOMEWHAT of a motivation on the public side, just look at flu vaccines, they've created a nice racket. Every year, we line up for flu shots, and it's definitely not the same shot every year. Flus come and go, they mutate, etc., and we have to come up with a modified shot every year.

We should be doing the same thing on viruses. Yes, you probably need some government funding on it too, but once we get to a vaccine stage, you let private industry carry the football across the goal line.
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Private industry and medication? This should work out well...
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
Agreed. I think the military model is an excellent example of how to work both sides of the equation. Private industry is not, independently, sitting in a room dreaming up new guns and tanks and ships and planes. The military shares information about what works in the field, what does not work, what they need, etc.

The Declaration of Independence lists our unalienable rights as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The Preamble to the Constitution states that we are creating the Constitution to, among other things, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general welfare. As someone pointed out earlier, we can even envision the defense against pandemics as a national security issue. So there is plenty of room to establish a federal interest and a federal role in defending the country against pandemics. Something that is more powerful than the cynical arguments for federalism ("let the states do all of this") or capitalism ("let private industry do all of this").

You are correct, corporations are, literally, supposed to operate as sharks, devouring everything in their paths in the pursuit of profit. It would be very difficult for private industry to have employees all over the globe simply to do the research and data collection on novel viruses and novel strains of the flu and other diseases. Governmental and quasi-governmental agencies can do that.

And once there is research and data, the government can share that information with American private industry, which has the muscle to produce and distribute innoculations and vaccines. In fact, that's pretty much the system we have now (with several substantial imperfections). When WHO distributed the COVID-19 genome-typing and the blueprint for a testing kit in late January 2020, it was never supposed to be left to the CDC to then "manufacture" those testing kits, it was always going to be private industry that did that. We just have a ****-poor communication and sharing system (particularly since the pandemic response unit within the NSA has been dismantled), not to mention a president who would then choose not to immediately use the Defense Production Act to authorize the mass-manufacture and mass-distribution of testing kits across the country. Because he doesn't like testing. Because then the numbers would be higher.
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Cheap shot notwithstanding, the CDC wouldn't even let states make their own tests at first and they were fully capable of doing so.

The good thing is that we now know where things can go wrong quickly so when the next pandemic hits, hopefully we can be more responsive.

Completely anecdotal and OT, but I heard praise for the FDA response from a friend in the medical device industry who deals with the FDA approval process.
 
JD08 said:
Cheap shot notwithstanding, the CDC wouldn't even let states make their own tests at first and they were fully capable of doing so.

The good thing is that we now know where things can go wrong quickly so when the next pandemic hits, hopefully we can be more responsive.

Completely anecdotal and OT, but I heard praise for the FDA response from a friend in the medical device industry who deals with the FDA approval process.
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There's no cheap shot, so stop complaining. The process needs to be beyond the reach of any petty opinions of any one person. I didn't make that stuff up, he actually said he wanted less testing so his numbers would be lower.

Don't be mad at me, be mad at the person who didn't order more testing sooner.

And "states" don't make the tests, private industry does. States then purchase the tests. "States" don't have manufacturing facilities.

I also didn't question FDA approval processes (though some people initially pointed the finger at them), so on that we can agree.
 
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TheOriginalCane said:
There's no cheap shot, so stop complaining. The process needs to be beyond the reach of any petty opinions of any one person. I didn't make that stuff up, he actually said he wanted less testing so his numbers would be lower.

Don't be mad at me, be mad at the person who didn't order more testing sooner.

And "states" don't make the tests, private industry does. States then purchase the tests. "States" don't have manufacturing facilities.

I also didn't question FDA approval processes (though some people initially pointed the finger at them), so on that we can agree.
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I should have said political shot and I'm not complaining about it, just trying to leave it out of my response.

The state labs were sending their samples to the CDC. They claimed at the time that the FDA wouldn't allow them to make their own. Apparently the emergency declaration shifted the red tape, but didn't eliminate it. The article below explains it a bit.

I didn't say you were questioning the FDA, it seemed related though and when a government agency does well, it should be noted.

Science | AAAS

www.sciencemag.org www.sciencemag.org
 
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JD08 said:
I should have said political shot and I'm not complaining about it, just trying to leave it out of my response.

The state labs were sending their samples to the CDC. They claimed at the time that the FDA wouldn't allow them to make their own. Apparently the emergency declaration shifted the red tape, but didn't eliminate it. The article below explains it a bit.

I didn't say you were questioning the FDA, it seemed related though and when a government agency does well, it should be noted.

Science | AAAS

www.sciencemag.org www.sciencemag.org
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All good, you are a fair person, I just wanted to clarify what I was saying because there has been some "political talk" that has tended to blame the FDA (more common a few months ago, less common now).

I've said it before, we have an election in 4 months, all of our "differences" should be getting an airing soon, so I'm not commenting on the political ideology as much as the overall process. That is all. Whether I like Trump or hate Trump, he has stated on multiple occasions some sort of opposition or dislike of testing and/or testing results. However, I believe that frequent and ongoing testing is the key to re-establishing the consumer confidence necessary to re-start the economy.

I hope that, in the future, we will respond to pandemics in a strong, rapid, and unified fashion that has nothing to do with the political ideology of the president, congress, or governors.

PS, the "badly bungled" time period with the defective testing kits was due to the fact that we did NOT use the WHO-approved test kit, and chose to develop a blueprint for a CDC test kit instead. Which was then manufactured improperly.
 
TheOriginalCane said:
All good, you are a fair person, I just wanted to clarify what I was saying because there has been some "political talk" that has tended to blame the FDA (more common a few months ago, less common now).

I've said it before, we have an election in 4 months, all of our "differences" should be getting an airing soon, so I'm not commenting on the political ideology as much as the overall process. That is all. Whether I like Trump or hate Trump, he has stated on multiple occasions some sort of opposition or dislike of testing and/or testing results. However, I believe that frequent and ongoing testing is the key to re-establishing the consumer confidence necessary to re-start the economy.

I hope that, in the future, we will respond to pandemics in a strong, rapid, and unified fashion that has nothing to do with the political ideology of the president, congress, or governors.

PS, the "badly bungled" time period with the defective testing kits was due to the fact that we did NOT use the WHO-approved test kit, and chose to develop a blueprint for a CDC test kit instead. Which was then manufactured improperly.
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We didn't just not use them. There was never any discussion of it as we always develop our own. Of course, this would be the time there was a faulty reagent.
 
Let us throw out the **** politics of for and against this shi*.

One of our brothers.......... who we respect............. and part of our group, is suffering.
Think about that...
That is what that really matters....It brings this home real close.

Get well, stay strong and recover fully my brother, ..............and we will hold everything down until you are back 100%.
Prayers for your complete recovery...
 
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JD08 said:
We didn't just not use them. There was never any discussion of it as we always develop our own. Of course, this would be the time there was a faulty reagent.
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Right, I agree with you that the CDC has a history of "making its own". But this was the exact wrong time to do so, the virus was spreading quickly and there was already a delay in China's communication to WHO.

Either way, we basically agree. It's either the wrong time to make our own kit, or it's the wrong time to make our own defective kit. Lose-lose.

 
TheOriginalCane said:
Right, I agree with you that the CDC has a history of "making its own". But this was the exact wrong time to do so, the virus was spreading quickly and there was already a delay in China's communication to WHO.

Either way, we basically agree. It's either the wrong time to make our own kit, or it's the wrong time to make our own defective kit. Lose-lose.

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Leon's getting larger.
 
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pacusmc said:
It’s about checks. No private company wants to make new antibiotics or vaccines for one time viruses. Why make a vaccine with your profits when this may be gone in a year. Why make antibiotics when they might not work in 5 years after a bacteria gains resistance. It’s just business 101. Unless our tax dollars are getting pumped in; private pharmaceutical companies don’t like cures. Shareholders aren’t into cures. Shareholders love chronic illness. Not a conspiracy theorist or anti capitalist but it’s just facts. The flu is a perfect example. Different strains every year and a new vaccine every year. Perfect for profits.
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No private company can afford it without government support.

The amount of money is takes to develop a new drug/vaccine is incredibly expensive - and many lack the efficacy or safety to ever become licensed. At any one time, a company can have multiple products coming through the pipeline, costing hundreds of millions......and those are for diseases currently impacting lives. To think a company can stay in the green without backing from the government on "potential" diseases isn't realistic. There's no market or immediate public need, so no revenue.

I never understood the not liking cures piece. You have to understand, the people doing the research and looking for cures are not CEOs and Board Members. It's doctors, research analysts, lab junkies. Many of these people get into the science business because they want to save lives, lost someone close to them to a disease, or enjoy the challenge of doing something others haven't been able to do. That push for medical breakthroughs will not stop because of an "idea" that a few large pharma companies want people sick to make more money. Grant and government funded research hospitals, start-up pharma companies and non-profits will continue the good fight. People do just fine on their own making themselves sick with how they chose to live their lives. There will always be something else to make money on. As much money as big pharma makes these days, even they have trouble keeping up with demand.
 
Glad to hear @dsddcane is doing better.

If I have any advice for you guys it is this, encourage your parents and grandparents to exercise caution. Masks for sure, hand washing and gloves, social distancing and stay home as much as possible. The elderly are for sure at risk. Everyone else....
 
TheOriginalCane said:
There's no cheap shot, so stop complaining. The process needs to be beyond the reach of any petty opinions of any one person. I didn't make that stuff up, he actually said he wanted less testing so his numbers would be lower.

Don't be mad at me, be mad at the person who didn't order more testing sooner.

And "states" don't make the tests, private industry does. States then purchase the tests. "States" don't have manufacturing facilities.

I also didn't question FDA approval processes (though some people initially pointed the finger at them), so on that we can agree.
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You ignore the fact that CDC was the maker of the tests in the beginning. That is the system our government agencies set up and maintained for decades to hold power. They were totally unprepared for this despite decades of their glorious efforts. Fauci has been in control of NIAID since early 80's and his only idea for dealing with this was destroying the economy that is at the heart of our strength. Hey, anyone can fall asleep at the switch or even just ***** up, but I have not heard ONE word of acceptance of any sort of blame from his golden lips. Oh, he did admit to lying through his teeth about the mask thing. But you know how that goes, where lying then or are you lying now?

I am no fan of today's massive companies and their greed and I agree with you that proper combinations with government in emergencies like today is best way to go. I think we might have seen the best of both the last few months but greed could easily resurface and return to agency power grabs. I am in the camp of not trusting either big business or big government.
 
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