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OriginalGatorHater said:
Of course no one would care if we where winning games, but there is a small issue here. We weren't winning games.

If I came in and told the guys to do ballet all day and never practice football. And we won back to back national championships. Everyone would be happy with my tactics as well. However, we wouldn't be winning games. Butches first season here he was co champ of the big east, so he did not start out nearly as horrible as Manny.
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Revisionist history will make it seem like every Miami fan was all in on being behind Butch in years one, two, and/or three. The running joke early in Butch's career was how lost he looked on the sidelines and how the team made so many unforced errors and careless mistakes.

Why did they call him "Botch" again?

My point remains the same--the same one that you agreed with--we just want to win. Your desire to argue about Manny's inability and Butch's superiority is not worthy of a conversation today because it's not my focus. Butch is better today. Butch grew.

But more than anything, Butch amassed talent better than almost anyone else had ever before (arguably the best roster ever assembled) and was able to create a winner because of talent more so than his personal coaching prowess. That was OP's position, recruit like a monster. I agree.

If we can recruit enough talented players with a winning mentality, then it doesn't matter if Manny bakes everyone cookies and gives out tummy rubs after the games.. we will improve. And if he fails to win enough games, he'll have established a talented roster that a better leader can mold into championship pedigree.
 
mikedeep97 said:
Revisionist history will make it seem like every Miami fan was all in on being behind Butch in years one, two, and/or three. The running joke early in Butch's career was how lost he looked on the sidelines and how the team made so many unforced errors and careless mistakes.

Why did they call him "Botch" again?

My point remains the same--the same one that you agreed with--we just want to win. Your desire to argue about Manny's inability and Butch's superiority is not worthy of a conversation today because it's not my focus. Butch is better today. Butch grew.

But more than anything, Butch amassed talent better than almost anyone else had ever before (arguably the best roster ever assembled) and was able to create a winner because of talent more so than his personal coaching prowess. That was OP's position, recruit like a monster. I agree.

If we can recruit enough talented players with a winning mentality, then it doesn't matter if Manny bakes everyone cookies and gives out tummy rubs after the games.. we will improve. And if he fails to win enough games, he'll have established a talented roster that a better leader can mold into championship pedigree.
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I was at UM when Butch was the coach. After the humiliation at Syracuse, I swear I would have shot him if I saw him on the street (self-defense). That is how bad I hated his guts. And yes, I was on the BBB train last time around. In hindsight, Butch was willing to make the necessary changes. Let’s see what Manny does.
 
mikedeep97 said:
Revisionist history will make it seem like every Miami fan was all in on being behind Butch in years one, two, and/or three. The running joke early in Butch's career was how lost he looked on the sidelines and how the team made so many unforced errors and careless mistakes.

Why did they call him "Botch" again?

My point remains the same--the same one that you agreed with--we just want to win. Your desire to argue about Manny's inability and Butch's superiority is not worthy of a conversation today because it's not my focus. Butch is better today. Butch grew.

But more than anything, Butch amassed talent better than almost anyone else had ever before (arguably the best roster ever assembled) and was able to create a winner because of talent more so than his personal coaching prowess. That was OP's position, recruit like a monster. I agree.

If we can recruit enough talented players with a winning mentality, then it doesn't matter if Manny bakes everyone cookies and gives out tummy rubs after the games.. we will improve. And if he fails to win enough games, he'll have established a talented roster that a better leader can mold into championship pedigree.
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There is no revisionist history here.

Butch is better today yes, he was also better in the 90s. He never had as schit a season as Manny had. That is a fact.

Manny will never recruit like Butch.
 
Canesfreak said:
I was at UM when Butch was the coach. After the humiliation at Syracuse, I swear I would have shot him if I saw him on the street (self-defense). That is how bad I hated his guts. And yes, I was on the BBB train last time around. In hindsight, Butch was willing to make the necessary changes. Let’s see what Manny does.
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That's my whole point... People hated Butch even though he was the exact opposite of Manny Diaz when it comes to flash and showy sh.t because at the end of the day 95% of our fans only care about winning games on Saturdays and allowing us to feel pride when we wear our "U" gear out in public and talk sh.t to rival fans.

Everybody wanna get on here and act like they care about Manny's motivational tactics now because we suck.

I didn't see NOT ONE UM FAN upset when that turnover chain came out against ND in '17. Win games, let me talk sh.t to my friends, and all other ills are forgiven.
 
OriginalGatorHater said:
There is no revisionist history here.

Butch is better today yes, he was also better in the 90s. He never had as schit a season as Manny had. That is a fact.

Manny will never recruit like Butch.
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That's an easy stance to take.

Manny will never be like someone NO ONE ELSE has matched before or since. (y)
 
mikedeep97 said:
That's an easy stance to take.

Manny will never be like someone NO ONE ELSE has matched before or since. (y)
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Then wtf are you even trying to prove with this?

So If Butch is a much better game day coach and a much better recruiter and he only finished ranked top 10 once. Than what is Mannys ceiling? lmao.
 
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OriginalGatorHater said:
Then wtf are you even trying to prove with this?

So If Butch is a much better game day coach and a much better recruiter and he only finished ranked top 10 once. Than what is Mannys ceiling? lmao.
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I don't think you've been able to understand the difference between where we agree and where we disagree, so I'm going to try this:

* I think Butch is better right now.
- I don't think Butch was FAR BETTER in his first year.

* I think Butch assembled the best roster of all time and has proven over time to be an ELITE talent recognizer and an amazing recruiter.
- There's no way that anyone can know the future to say whether or not Manny can amass the necessary talent to overcome his deficiencies and we don't know if he's going to make future staff changes the way Butch did to take us from "ok" to "great".

Going back to my strawman warning, I'm not comparing Manny to Butch and don't think he can hope to be him. I believe that he is a great MOTIVATOR of talent, but don't yet know if he can recognize the characteristics of a winner yet. But I know that he has an idea and he has a plan. Only time will tell if his plan will work.
 
mikedeep97 said:
I don't think you've been able to understand the difference between where we agree and where we disagree, so I'm going to try this:

* I think Butch is better right now.
- I don't think Butch was FAR BETTER in his first year.

* I think Butch assembled the best roster of all time and has proven over time to be an ELITE talent recognizer and an amazing recruiter.
- There's no way that anyone can know the future to say whether or not Manny can amass the necessary talent to overcome his deficiencies and we don't know if he's going to make future staff changes the way Butch did to take us from "ok" to "great".

Going back to my strawman warning, I'm not comparing Manny to Butch and don't think he can hope to be him. I believe that he is a great MOTIVATOR of talent, but don't yet know if he can recognize the characteristics of a winner yet. But I know that he has an idea and he has a plan. Only time will tell if his plan will work.
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No, I understand where we disagree. Butch was co champ of his conf his first year. Manny lost to FIU and the worst P5 team in the nation. Butch was worlds better gameday coach.

You are right a miracle could happen and Manny could recruit at an elite level. However, odds of that happening are very slim. When you hire employees you don't say "well if a miracle happens this guy could be decent, so I am going to let him have a few more years even though all signs point towards him being terrible".
 
OriginalGatorHater said:
No, I understand where we disagree. Butch was co champ of his conf his first year. Manny lost to FIU and the worst P5 team in the nation. Butch was worlds better gameday coach.

You are right a miracle could happen and Manny could recruit at an elite level. However, odds of that happening are very slim. When you hire employees you don't say "well if a miracle happens this guy could be decent, so I am going to let him have a few more years even though all signs point towards him being terrible".
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Come on, man... He was better.. but to say "worlds better" when he inherited a roster with four first round picks... NOT including Ray Lewis, a future hall of famer. That makes five guys on Butch's roster that were likely "worlds better" than any talent on our roster today... and Butch went 8-3.

If that is your definition of "worlds better", then we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
mikedeep97 said:
Come on, man... He was better.. but to say "worlds better" when he inherited a roster with four first round picks... NOT including Ray Lewis, a future hall of famer. That makes five guys on Butch's roster that were likely "worlds better" than any talent on our roster today... and Butch went 8-3.

If that is your definition of "worlds better", then we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Butch also lost to the number 4 and number 10 team in the nation. Manny lost to a bad G5 team, the worst P5 team in the nation, 2 of the worst ACC teams one even missed a bowl, and game against Va Tech whose corch was on the hotseat.
 
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