Pro Wrestling AEW MEGA THREAD

[Cajuncane]

 

[BoxingRobes]

Naw. It's just young wrestling fans.

Just to provide some data...Cagematch ranked All Out 2021 and WrestleMania X-7 dead even at 9.57. A unique demographic of individuals, but these two are right now considered the best American shows of all-time, both with about 400 official reviews. Yesterday, All Out 2021 was rated ahead of that show by .02.

And before D$ comes in with obnoxious slander that reads like Alexa Bliss Avatars on Twitter...the Top 5 American Events of All-Time ("PPV") are Mania X7, All Out 2021, Money in the Bank 2011 (btw - look at the similarities between these two events - both shows were in Chicago, CM Punk had the biggest buzz match of the year going into both sho, Daniel Bryan was the talk of pro wrestling coming out of both sho, Christian was in a world title match on both shows, The Big Show was in a featured match on both shows), Takeover New Orleans (Gargano/Ciampa I, maybe the best multi-man best ladder match of All-Time, awesome Aleister Black-Andrade title match), and ROH Glory by Honor (Danielson v. KENTA).

If you don't understand the importance of All Out 2021...idk what to tell you, the event is in rare company in the United States.

 

[DMoney]

Just to provide some data...Cagematch ranked All Out 2021 and WrestleMania X-7 dead even at 9.57. A unique demographic of individuals, but these two are right now considered the best American shows of all-time, both with about 400 official reviews. Yesterday, All Out 2021 was rated ahead of that show by .02.

And before D$ comes in with obnoxious slander that reads like Alexa Bliss Avatars on Twitter...the Top 5 American Events of All-Time ("PPV") are Mania X7, All Out 2021, Money in the Bank 2011 (btw - look at the similarities between these two events - both shows were in Chicago, CM Punk had the biggest buzz match of the year going into both sho, Daniel Bryan was the talk of pro wrestling coming out of both sho, Christian was in a world title match on both shows, The Big Show was in a featured match on both shows), Takeover New Orleans (Gargano/Ciampa I, maybe the best multi-man best ladder match of All-Time, awesome Aleister Black-Andrade title match), and ROH Glory by Honor (Danielson v. KENTA).

If you don't understand the importance of All Out 2021...idk what to tell you, the event is in rare company in the United States.

You need to step out the smark bubble for a second. Who do you think spends the time to post a Cagematch review? Look at the PPVs you listed. NXT and ROH are very popular with a limited demographic, but the average person who likes/liked wrestling knows nothing about those "all-time great" shows and moments.

AEW is booked by a WON forum poster for people who read the WON. I like the show and they will be viable within that demo. But it is a limited product, and to say that a show that pulled 200K viewers (all smarks) is the best wrestling PPV in history just because three undersized bearded indy legends debuted is absurd.

 

[BoxingRobes]

You need to step out the smark bubble for a second. Who do you think spends the time to post a Cagematch review? Look at the PPVs you listed. NXT and ROH are very popular with a limited demographic, but the average person who likes/liked wrestling knows nothing about those "all-time great" shows and moments.

AEW is booked by a WON forum poster for people who read the WON. I like the show and they will be viable within that demo. But it is a limited product, and to say that a show that pulled 200K viewers (all smarks) is the best wrestling PPV in history just because three undersized bearded indy legends debuted is absurd.

The same people that would put WWE events at the top of the list. Notice no Heatwave 98, Spring Stampede 94, When World's Collide PPV...which would be the SMARK PPVs du jour here in America.

Your mindset of the average wrestling fan today is nonsense. Youre a hair away from using "internet fans" with the smark comment as if nearly all of the current market for wrestling isn't online. CM Punk and Bryan Danielson are about as big of gets as you'll get.. Bryan Danielson legitimately just main evented WrestleMania. Its 2021. There are under 3 million wrestling fans in the United States and they are almost all in the circle of knowledge.

Tony Khan is making a professional wrestling operation catered to the masses that want actual professional wrestling. Not "sports entertainment" and within a calendar year made an American promotion exceedingly profitable. It's been said already, but Tony Khan saved American Professional wrestling. Sorry, but its true. You should say thank you and send him a fruit basket because his mere presence will make WWE put together a better, more compelling product, because Dynamite will catch RAW sooner than you think and those rights deals are coming right around the corner as well.

 

[DMoney]

Your mindset of the average wrestling fan today is nonsense.

I live with two hardcore fans who aren't smarks. They're my kids. They made me turn off the Lucha Bros/Bucks because "they're too small" and "they aren't tough." They wanted Peacock clips of guys like Reigns, Kane and Goldberg. Vince understands that mindset.

When I went to Raw yesterday (6500 paid), the majority of the people in the crowd were families. And it was a diverse group. Same with the house show we went to last month in Fort Myers (5600 paid). When I went to Dynamite a couple months ago (3700), everyone looked like me and you. Message board posters in their late 20s-30s. And that's good-- Tony Khan is giving that demo what they want and building a viable promotion. I hope that some of the corrections he's making (no scripted promos, blood) eventually make their way back to WWE.

But the "professional wrestling" thing is a crock. I think it's dumb that Vince says "sports entertainment," but look at the actual products. Professional wrestling has always been about believable fake fighters with personality. Most of the traditional "professional wrestlers" in history were big, strong dudes with legit athletic backgrounds. These are the exact type of guys Vince wants to recruit to NXT.

Is Orange Cassidy more "sports entertainment" or "professional wrestling?" Is Gable Steveson-- arguably the most talented American HW ever--a "professional wrestling" acquisition or a "sports entertainment" acquisition?

Again, I like AEW. Dynamite is usually better than RAW and their tag matches are a blast. CM Punk and Daniel Bryan are huge gets because they are the icons of a certain internet demographic and great performers. That said, I don't see mainstream appeal at the moment. There is a ceiling. The product is fan service for smarks like us. And that's OK.

 

[BoxingRobes]

I live with two hardcore fans who aren't smarks. They're my kids. When I went to Raw yesterday (6500 paid), the majority of the people in the crowd were families. And it was a diverse group. Same with the house show we went to last month in Fort Myers (5600 paid). When I went to Dynamite a couple months ago (3700), everyone looked like me and you. Message board posters in their late 20s-30s. And that's good-- Tony Khan is giving that demo what they want and building a viable promotion. I hope that some of the corrections he's making (no scripted promos, blood) eventually make their way back to WWE.

But the "professional wrestling" thing is a crock. I think it's dumb that Vince says "sports entertainment," but look at the actual products. Professional wrestling has always been about believable fake fighters with personality. Most of the traditional "professional wrestlers" in history were big, strong dudes with legit athletic backgrounds. These are the exact type of guys Vince wants to recruit to NXT.

Is Orange Cassidy more "sports entertainment" or "professional wrestling?" Is Gable Steveson-- arguably the most talented American HW ever--a "professional wrestling" acquisition or a "sports entertainment" acquisition?

Again, I like AEW. Dynamite is usually better than RAW and their tag matches are a blast. I don't see mainstream appeal at the moment. There is a ceiling. The product is fan service for smarks like us. And that's OK.

You and I will absolutely disagree here...I make this argument to many of my wrestling fans. I'm just telling you the same thing Vince tells you...he's not making a professional wrestling company. He hasn't for a very long time and has done everything to tell you that. Actions = words. Nick Khan has told you in numerous interviews at this point...they are a content creation company.

My issues with your takes here is that "I don't see mainstream appeal" sounds pretty ignorant and calling it a niche promotion for "smarks" even worse considering Dynamite is consistently one of the highest rated programs in the country on Wednesday nights and is a slam dunk in the 18-49 demo, which, I've shown you an article on, is really the only important number when it comes to ad revenue and ultimately will dictate the rights deals moving forward. Its already mainstream and the growth in such a short time has been exponential...what do you think is going to happen a year from now, two years from now? You still going to call it a niche promotion when it catches RAW within the year?

As for Gable Stevenson...you act as if AEW doesn't also scout these types or have former athletes (Kenny Omega was a top junior hockey player for example, Lance Archer was a big time QB). Jade Cargill a former women's basketball player, Anthony Ogogo a former boxer...but AEW has a mix of pro wrestlers and legit athletes. It is what makes the promotion good.

WWE has one of the most legit MMA fighters in wrestling on their roster - Matt Riddle - and he rides a scooter around acting like a 14 year old. They've got legit former NFL players like Baron Corbin doing idk wtf. Legit strong men with high end college football backgrounds like Big E tossing pancakes. So, what does it matter - from a creative perspective - what kind of athletes they get when they don't really present them as such and I question what kind of training they are getting in the PC considering they havent made a star there outside of the women at all.

DCornette v. BoxingMeltzer going to be a rivalry in this thread, it seems.

 

[DMoney]

Its already mainstream and the growth in such a short time has been exponential...what do you think is going to happen a year from now, two years from now? You still going to call it a niche promotion when it catches RAW within the year?

It reminds me of a place you and I used to know well, the WEZ. The growth is exponential early because you get consumers who are dissatisfied and want things the other company/website isn't providing. But it peters out quick because it's a limited market. The difference between WWE and Scout is that Vince is more competent than Moni.

As for Gable Stevenson...you act as if AEW doesn't also scout these types or have former athletes (Kenny Omega was a top junior hockey player for example, Lance Archer was a big time QB). Jade Cargill a former women's basketball player, Anthony Ogogo a former boxer...but AEW has a mix of pro wrestlers and legit athletes. It is what makes the promotion good.

AEW doesn't have nearly enough of those guys. Punk, Cole and Bryan are the best in breed for what they already have. A major improvement, but not something new. Cargill is a legit talent and the person I would target if I were Vince.

WWE has one of the most legit MMA fighters in wrestling on their roster - Matt Riddle - and he rides a scooter around acting like a 14 year old. They've got legit former NFL players like Baron Corbin doing idk wtf. Legit strong men with high end college football backgrounds like Big E tossing pancakes.

Ironically, those are three of the only gimmicks they've gotten right lately. Riddle is enormously over while being credible in the ring. Corbin's broke gimmick is genius. Big E had Fort Myers going crazy with his personality and dancing. That is what pro wrestling has traditionally been-- believable ***-kickers with larger-than-life characters.

 

[BoxingRobes]

It reminds me of a place you and I used to know well, the WEZ. The growth is exponential early because you get consumers who are dissatisfied and want things the other company/website isn't providing. But it peters out quick because it's a limited market. The difference between WWE and Scout is that Vince is more competent than Moni.



AEW doesn't have nearly enough of those guys. Punk, Cole and Bryan are the best in breed for what they already have. A major improvement, but not something new. Cargill is a legit talent and the person I would target if I were Vince.



Ironically, those are three of the only gimmicks they've gotten right lately. Riddle is enormously over while being credible in the ring. Corbin's broke gimmick is genius. Big E had Fort Myers going crazy with his personality and dancing. That is what pro wrestling has traditionally been-- believable ***-kickers with larger-than-life characters.

The market is "limited" because Vince himself has shrank the market (another bullet point I'd use to demostrate that what WWE is, isn't professional wrestling, but that is a discussion for another day). 20 years ago, RAW was hitting all-time HIGHS in viewership. Just this year, RAW has been hitting all-time LOWS. Wrestling's total market today is somewhere in the range of 20% of what it was during the highs of the late 90s, early 2000s. Vince also changed the nature of the traditional model of wrestling. Your example of PPV buyrates is a prime example. Vince has devalued his own brand (similar to the way he has shrunk his own market) by charging $10 for his events on a streaming service. That streaming service was a legit failure (unfortunate, because I liked the product - but it never came close to hitting projections), and in turn he had to sell to NBC and now the failures of that streaming service have been kicked down the road for someone else to deal with. For WWE, there is nearly no market for their special events that people will gladly pay PPV market value for. The numbers from Peacock are always going to be fugazi, as is most data that comes from streaming services.

Why do I make this point? Because in a calendar year, AEW has dramatically cut into what limited market there already is in wrestling and it continues to grow. he fact that AEW continues to increase PPV buys during a pandemic year is incredibly impressive. 200K Slapping down $50 for a wrestling PPV in 2021? That **** has not happened in 8 years, brother. You say it'll peter off...but I'm not so sure. Its WWE that continues a 20 year decline in ratings (despite a recent bump in ratings) while AEW is growing weekly. They are popping champagne bottles when ratings come out while Vince is having fits re-writing RAW and Smackdown and taking over NXT.

When it comes to the talent AEW is developing...again, its really only been a year and most of AEW's existence has been during a pandemic with no fans.

I would disagree completely with those gimmicks they have gotten right. Big E should be a world champion but he is in the same place he was - legitimately - a decade ago. Riddle should be a world champion...but is in a comedy act. Corbin just stinks, but that is neither here nor there.

 

[Dan E. Dangerously]

 

[BoxingRobes]

@DMoney

This is a professional wrestling company, you see.

 

[ben]

 

[Dan E. Dangerously]

Turns out that Kevin Steen's contract is up in January. He tweeted the gps coordinates for the "Mt. Rushmore" promo with the Young Bucks and Adam Cole at PWG before deleting it.

 

[Shinyheadman]

In three years WWE is going to look so different. If they stay the course, there are so many wrestlers I could see leaving and I wouldn't be shocked. Guys who are main event secure will probably stay. Seth Rollins is the only "indy" guy I could see staying and even he would probably be battle to keep. Them losing Bryan and his comments saying how he loved WWE, loved Vince, but couldn't turn down working in aew speaks volumes. I don't think anyone in the company is safe if they don't change their rules. I'd be shocked if Sami and KO stayed.

 

[DMoney]

20 years ago, RAW was hitting all-time HIGHS in viewership. Just this year, RAW has been hitting all-time LOWS.

That's like saying that wrestling was at its peak with Gorgeous George when there were 2 channels.

RAW and Smackdown are still beating the nightly competition, which is why the WWE landed those monster rights deals.

That streaming service was a legit failure (unfortunate, because I liked the product - but it never came close to hitting projections), and in turn he had to sell to NBC and now the failures of that streaming service have been kicked down the road for someone else to deal with.

They were ahead of the curve on streaming and sold the library for a cool Billion. If that's a failure, I hope I fail twice as bad.

@DMoney

This is a professional wrestling company, you see.

I saw the New Day wrestle for about 40 minutes in Miami last night. The side stuff is added entertainment. I'm sure my kids will love it. Do you think the Bucks should stop ****ing around on their YouTube show?

 

[BoxingRobes]

That's like saying that wrestling was at its peak with Gorgeous George when there were 2 channels.

RAW and Smackdown are still beating the nightly competition, which is why the WWE landed those monster rights deals.



They were ahead of the curve on streaming and sold the library for a cool Billion. If that's a failure, I hope I fail twice as bad.




I saw the New Day wrestle for about 40 minutes in Miami last night. The side stuff is added entertainment. I'm sure my kids will love it. Do you think the Bucks should stop ****ing around on their YouTube show?

Please see the article I posted a page or so ago that analyzes RAW and Smackdown's ratings. Dynamite is also beating the nightly competition. Using Gorgeous George's era as a comparison is being dishonest. Wrestling was far more regional back then and Dave Meltzer does a fantastic job every year contextualizing drawing figures for regional/territorial stars during WON Hall of Fame season. 20 years ago, wrestling was national...the same channels still exist and the audience is the audience. Can you explain an alternative take for where the other 8 million people are that used to tune in weekly are? They are gone like Thanos just snapped his finger and they are likely never coming back...and that's WWE's fault.

They were ahead on streaming, but it was a failure. I actually loved the product...unfortunately it didn't succeed. Similar to the XFL...Vince had some great ideas there and the NFL ultimately ripped the good ideas off...but it was a failure. Yeah, after two tries, Vince made a cool $15 million on the XFL, and I'm sure you would like to fail that bad as well...but its still a failure. They didn't sell library, that is being dishonest, they sold rights to their live event content and they basically bundled/rolled the library in with it...if you've seen some Nick Khan interviews, he specifically called the Network a failure and thought the WWE had no business doing it...basically told'em they aren't Netflix and now outsourced their streaming elsewhere. They banked a cool billion dollars...Netflix has a valuation somewhere in the ballpark of 225 billion. Hulu is worth like 15 billion. It was a failure...that is why they got rid of it. For a bit of a nuanced perspective, BHT chimes in on this as well...

Final evaluation of the WWE Network - Wrestlenomics

Is WWE more or less profitable today because of the Network?

wrestlenomics.com

 

[DMoney]

Please see the article I posted a page or so ago that analyzes RAW and Smackdown's ratings. Dynamite is also beating the nightly competition. Using Gorgeous George's era as a comparison is being dishonest. Wrestling was far more regional back then and Dave Meltzer does a fantastic job every year contextualizing drawing figures for regional/territorial stars during WON Hall of Fame season. 20 years ago, wrestling was national...the same channels still exist and the audience is the audience. Can you explain an alternative take for where the other 8 million people are that used to tune in weekly are? They are gone like Thanos just snapped his finger and they are likely never coming back...and that's WWE's fault.

They were ahead on streaming, but it was a failure. I actually loved the product...unfortunately it didn't succeed. Similar to the XFL...Vince had some great ideas there and the NFL ultimately ripped the good ideas off...but it was a failure. Yeah, after two tries, Vince made a cool $15 million on the XFL, and I'm sure you would like to fail that bad as well...but its still a failure. They didn't sell library, that is being dishonest, they sold rights to their live event content and they basically bundled/rolled the library in with it...if you've seen some Nick Khan interviews, he specifically called the Network a failure and thought the WWE had no business doing it...basically told'em they aren't Netflix and now outsourced their streaming elsewhere. They banked a cool billion dollars...Netflix has a valuation somewhere in the ballpark of 225 billion. Hulu is worth like 15 billion. It was a failure...that is why they got rid of it. For a bit of a nuanced perspective, BHT chimes in on this as well...

Final evaluation of the WWE Network - Wrestlenomics

Is WWE more or less profitable today because of the Network?

wrestlenomics.com

That's not what Khan said at all. He said it was time for WWE to get out of the streaming business because they aren't a tech company and it wasn't worth it to keep up technologically with the big streaming players. Then he bragged about signing a ONE BILLION dollar deal for professional wrestling and making record profits during a pandemic.

Again, look at the people you are relying on for business discussions: Meltzer and Thurston. These are hardcore fans who don't like the WWE direction. They have fair wrestling criticisms and I follow both, but their business insights from cluttered basements have been consistently wrong while the WWE continues to outperform the stock market and break financial records.

Ultimately, neither company puts money in my pocket. The product is what matters. From a substance perspective, the best discussion was on Cheap Heat. WWE is making a show for the world and AEW is making a show for hardcore fans. Drake versus JCole. From the WWE standpoint, they need to avoid unforced errors and put on the best WWE product they can. The hardcores will still watch them even if they complain about it.

 

[Dan E. Dangerously]

The only way I can see AEW truly effecting WWE's bottom line is if they stubbornly don't adjust what they are currently doing. However, we wouldn't see it until the next round of TV rights deals come out. They have enough time until then to tweak creative, cultivate new talent in a revamped NXT, etc. to prevent the crisis WCW caused in mid 90s. Short of AEW having an NWO caliber storyline in next few years is the only way to speed that up, other than Nick Khan's influence swaying Vince over the wrestling people around him.

 

[Dan E. Dangerously]

please please please prove it

 

[BoxingRobes]

That's not what Khan said at all. He said it was time for WWE to get out of the streaming business because they aren't a tech company and it wasn't worth it to keep up technologically with the big streaming players. Then he bragged about signing a ONE BILLION dollar deal for professional wrestling and making record profits during a pandemic.

Again, look at the people you are relying on for business discussions: Meltzer and Thurston. These are hardcore fans who don't like the WWE direction. They have fair wrestling criticisms and I follow both, but their business insights from cluttered basements have been consistently wrong while the WWE continues to outperform the stock market and break financial records.

Ultimately, neither company puts money in my pocket. The product is what matters. From a substance perspective, the best discussion was on Cheap Heat. WWE is making a show for the world and AEW is making a show for hardcore fans. Drake versus JCole. From the WWE standpoint, they need to avoid unforced errors and put on the best WWE product they can. The hardcores will still watch them even if they complain about it.

What you said in your first paragraph is exactly what I said...arguing otherwise with nothing to say otherwise is just you talking nonsense. If it was successful, they'd still have it. Really as simple as that. They cut bait, recouped a little cash, but sold their rights to Peacock for future events for that flat fee. Businessman touting any deal they make? Of course. But it was a failure. 1 Billion for FUTURE RIGHTS...again, read the article, with how much WWE cannibalized other aspects of their company including previous rights related deals, its a punt at best. They sold the future rights for less than the NHL got from just Turner Sports in a secondary deal for the NHL, for context.

On top of it, Peacock as a service may be a failing platform...we'll see.

Peacock May Be Failing? | The Streaming Advisor

OK, so you may have seen the headlines on some cord-cutting websites yesterday. Comcast CEO might want to buy Roku. This comes from a passage in an article from The Wallstreet Journal "Inside Comcast’…

www.thestreamingadvisor.com

Meltzer and Thurston are the most educated people in the wrestling media on this topic. BHT's and before him Chris Harrington (now Tony Khan's right hand man) have been nothing but consistently RIGHT and have access to an incredible trove of business data, some of which isn't even public knowledge. You need to check your sources.

Forbes elaborates as well, an article from a year ago

Interest In WWE Is Plummeting Because Vince McMahon Is Failing To Create New Stars

WWE data shows that interest in the product is plummeting, and Vince McMahon's inability to create new stars is to blame.

www.forbes.com

The last point you make, also couldn't be more wrong and it is why their stock price and record breaking year happen...Cheap Heat is WRONG. WWE is not making a show for the world. They aren't making a show for anybody. They are making a show to create content - it is why the quality of the programming does not matter, nor does their continued declining ratings year over year - for businesses (Networks and Platforms) that are looking for first run content on their platform/network. The WWE is not making a show for you, your kids, hardcores...they are making a show to simply generate content to sell. ...which is what they should be doing considering rights fees are a ridiculous chunk of their annual revenue.

That is not the same business model AEW is running, at least right now.

Your obsession about AEW being a show for hardcores baffles me considering how large the audience is already after - once again - nearly their entire existence has been during a pandemic when ratings were DOWN.

 

[DMoney]

What you said in your first paragraph is exactly what I said...arguing otherwise with nothing to say otherwise is just you talking nonsense. If it was successful, they'd still have it. Really as simple as that.

So every time a business sells off a product for an obscene amount of money, it's a failure? Think about what you're saying.

Meltzer and Thurston are the most educated people in the wrestling media on this topic.

The esteemed and unbiased world of "wrestling media." Why is WWE's stock still outperforming the S&P 500 and making so much money? These guys have been sounding the fake alarm for years. From a financial standpoint, WWE is kicking ***.

They are making a show to create content - it is why the quality of the programming does not matter, nor does their continued declining ratings year over year - for businesses (Networks and Platforms) that are looking for first run content on their platform/network.

I've heard this silly "content" line from AEW fans for a couple years now. It is meaningless. Why do studios pay for "content?" Can I sell them five hours of the CIS Podcast in exchange for a couple billion dollars? Of course not. The studios pay for the viewers and the ability to sell ads. If the content doesn't satisfy those two requirements, it has no worth. WWE made billions off TV rights because a lot of people still watch and sponsors want to put ads on the product.

Your obsession about AEW being a show for hardcores baffles me considering how large the audience is already after - once again - nearly their entire existence has been during a pandemic when ratings were DOWN.

Does anybody really doubt that AEW is a show for hardcores? It's their whole model and it works for them. They had 906K and .35 key demo right before the pandemic. Last week, they were at 1,047,000 with .37 key demo after adding CM Punk and losing NXT as competition. That's their hardcore base, and it is enough to build a legitimate wrestling company. I expect Bryan and Cole bump up this week's number, but there is a ceiling unless they expand from the hardcores. But they don't need to in order to stay viable.