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Miami's NFL talent and getting to the next level

Rellyrell

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Bingo. And our OLs have been a mess, even with a few more NFL guys than Clemson. Because OL is a unit, and you need at least 8 good ones to get through a season. We probably average less than one marginal nfl kid a year on OL, and many of the good kids we have had have been forced to play before they were ready. Meanwhile, our depth and experience has been atrocious.

Again; that’s y I posed the question of what is our identity like 2 seasons ago. Wisconsin? They know their identity, and they recruit according to. So does Clemson, OSU, ND, Bama (although for them, they no longer have to recruit like that), Iowa, Iowa St, OU.

I’m not sure what we want. Like even our QB situation now; we got D King who was a DT-QB, & clearly that’s worked....but now we’ve recruited Two Pro QBs. We recruit Chaney & Franklin who are bruisers, but then we also have Knighton who’s more an APB. We’ve recruited more possession type WRs, but we want to “stretch” the field. We have a helluva line up of strikers, but our CBs & LBs r suspect. DEs have been solid, but the interior has been meh.

Hence, we see a lot of disjointed seasons. We’re clearly the most talented team in The Coastal, but b/c I’m not sure if we know what our identity is, we’ve allowed inferior teams that had more cohesion either beat us or put fear that we were going to lose.
 

Ethnicsands

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Again; that’s y I posed the question of what is our identity like 2 seasons ago. Wisconsin? They know their identity, and they recruit according to. So does Clemson, OSU, ND, Bama (although for them, they no longer have to recruit like that), Iowa, Iowa St, OU.

I’m not sure what we want. Like even our QB situation now; we got D King who was a DT-QB, & clearly that’s worked....but now we’ve recruited Two Pro QBs. We recruit Chaney & Franklin who are bruisers, but then we also have Knighton who’s more an APB. We’ve recruited more possession type WRs, but we want to “stretch” the field. We have a helluva line up of strikers, but our CBs & LBs r suspect. DEs have been solid, but the interior has been meh.

Hence, we see a lot of disjointed seasons. We’re clearly the most talented team in The Coastal, but b/c I’m not sure if we know what our identity is, we’ve allowed inferior teams that had more cohesion either beat us or put fear that we were going to lose.
Well said. We have 'shiny object' syndrome. Even our fans do. We crave hope and validation and so sign kids based on those traits rather than a clear understanding of needs and priorities.
 

DMoney

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None of us know what each of these programs is recruiting for. You're just speculating and projecting.

Saban knows exactly the types of recruits he's seeking from a physical standpoint. Alabama does not pursue players who fail to fit a specific size/speed metric even though they may prove quality players for other programs.

"They have a template, and it matches what most NFL teams are looking for,"
Reese’s Senior Bowl executive director and Crimson Tide radio analyst Phil Savage told Sporting News. "When they come out of the locker room on any given Saturday, you can see that all the DBs are of a certain height, all the defensive linemen are of a certain shape and the offensive linemen are big. It's not like you have one DB who is 5-7 and another who is 6-2.



That's just the first example that popped up. Kirby took Saban's philosophy to Georgia so you can assume it's similar.

You claim Clemson doesn't do this any longer, which I don't know you know that

Just look at the recruiting rankings. For years, Clemson had classes ranked in the 10-15 range because they surrounded their blue chip QB/WR/DL with low-rated "program guys." From 2010 to 2019, their average class ranking was 12th. They've been Top 5 the last two years with their best classes of all-time.

Why is this important? Here's how 247 computes those recruiting rankings:

To that end, we have turned to the NFL Draft as the measuring stick and answer key that best indicates, in a quantitative manner, the level of success and ability players showcased during their college careers.

Additionally, you're avoiding the entire point of this exchange. Is our problem just NFL kids? Or is there a different issue that your NFL focus doesn't illuminate? I say 'there is.'

The point of this exchange is that NFL talent matters a lot. The data make that abundantly clear.

Nobody has ever said NFL numbers are Miami's "only problem." That's a weak strawman. We have a bunch of areas to improve. This thread focuses on a specific problem--the lack of elite talent-- that is the primary problem separating us from the top programs right now.

You've conceded a path to getting there is the Clemson path.

Yes, the path for us is maximizing our existing talent with a fun style of football. This will allow us to recruit true difference-makers like Deshaun Watson, Christian Wilkins and Trevor Lawrence. That's how Clemson got to the next level. Last year was a step in the right direction.
 

bshaw28

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I can not imagine another P5 school that would have a higher attrition rate than we do.

We seemingly hemorrhage talent in every way possible from de-commitments, to players that never get to campus, to players that transfer out in Year 1, Year 2, injury, early declarations to the NFL, etc. We seemingly have every base covered for players not finishing here. If there is a team that competes with Miami on this front, I'd love to see the data.

I remember I've looked at this before - and about 20-25% is pretty much the average at any school in terms of players in a recruiting class that don't finish at that school - either they transfer, get kicked off the team, get injured, etc. That doesn't include going pro early. Under Golden I think we were almost at 40%.

IMO an underrated factor is that the Miami players that have gone on to become our best NFL players barely played here.

I see not getting a 4th year out of Trajan Bandy or Jonathan Garvin much less of factor than not even getting 3 years out of these guys

Rousseau - 1 yr
Phillips - 1 yr
Jimmy Graham - 1 yr
Njoku - 2 yrs
Lamar Miller - 2 yrs
Duke Johnson - 2.5 yrs - injury
Olivier Vernon - 2.5 yrs - suspension
Sam Shields - 1 yr DB, 1 yr WR, 2 yrs in the doghouse

Phillips & Rousseau may go on to kill it in the NFL, and we'll point to how Miami produces talent -but the truth is Miami got very little out of them because they actually played such a small amount of games here.
 
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DTP

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We also don’t have an identity, especially on offense, because we’ve literally had 4 different offensive coordinators since 2015. At least with Lashlee having success last year we have a proven coach and system that’s appealing to offensive players, specifically quarterbacks.
 

AllAboutTheU

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I’m not sure what we want. Like even our QB situation now; we got D King who was a DT-QB, & clearly that’s worked....but now we’ve recruited Two Pro QBs. We recruit Chaney & Franklin who are bruisers, but then we also have Knighton who’s more an APB
I don’t think these two positions are really good examples. Clemson, Bama and OSU have a vastly different type of QB they go after. You just need to put the QB in the best position to take advantage of the things that they’re good about.

RB as well. Having guys with different skill sets in the backfield is a pretty universal thing across football right now. Having a backfield of all bruisers would be so limiting. Not sure I really see Chaney as a bruiser per se either though. He’s an every down back.
 

bshaw28

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Yea, but look at their OL recruited between that time. Rankings wise we may have done better and clearly we’ve done better NFL production wise. Lot of low .90 prospects with some .94ish guys sprinkled in a FEW high 4-5 guys like Carman and Mitch Hyatt and maybe one other guy. They just clearly have their evals down there and it’s less about high upside NFL types and more about fit.

Yeah - Clemson definitely evaluates better. And they know their system and have stability. Dabo didn't land a single Top 100 rated OL in his first 7 recruiting classes - which is pretty crazy.

It does seem weird to me that they wouldn't be able to land OL guys that both fit their scheme AND are NFL talents. It doesn't seem like those 2 should be mutually exclusive. But they make it work.
 

OriginalCanesCanesCanes

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Saban knows exactly the types of recruits he's seeking from a physical standpoint. Alabama does not pursue players who fail to fit a specific size/speed metric even though they may prove quality players for other programs.

"They have a template, and it matches what most NFL teams are looking for,"
Reese’s Senior Bowl executive director and Crimson Tide radio analyst Phil Savage told Sporting News. "When they come out of the locker room on any given Saturday, you can see that all the DBs are of a certain height, all the defensive linemen are of a certain shape and the offensive linemen are big. It's not like you have one DB who is 5-7 and another who is 6-2.



That's just the first example that popped up. Kirby took Saban's philosophy to Georgia so you can assume it's similar.



Just look at the recruiting rankings. For years, Clemson had classes ranked in the 10-15 range because they surrounded their blue chip QB/WR/DL with low-rated "program guys." From 2010 to 2019, their average class ranking was 12th. They've been Top 5 the last two years with their best classes of all-time.

Why is this important? Here's how 247 computes those recruiting rankings:

To that end, we have turned to the NFL Draft as the measuring stick and answer key that best indicates, in a quantitative manner, the level of success and ability players showcased during their college careers.



The point of this exchange is that NFL talent matters a lot. The data make that abundantly clear.

Nobody has ever said NFL numbers are Miami's "only problem." That's a weak strawman. We have a bunch of areas to improve. This thread focuses on a specific problem--the lack of elite talent-- that is the primary problem separating us from the top programs right now.



Yes, the path for us is maximizing our existing talent with a fun style of football. This will allow us to recruit true difference-makers like Deshaun Watson, Christian Wilkins and Trevor Lawrence. That's how Clemson got to the next level. Last year was a step in the right direction.

This wasn’t so much a reply as it was a full dissection.
 

Rellyrell

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I don’t think these two positions are really good examples. Clemson, Bama and OSU have a vastly different type of QB they go after. You just need to put the QB in the best position to take advantage of the things that they’re good about.

RB as well. Having guys with different skill sets in the backfield is a pretty universal thing across football right now. Having a backfield of all bruisers would be so limiting. Not sure I really see Chaney as a bruiser per se either though. He’s an every down back.

Correct; but they go after QBs that fit their identity.

Clemson consistently go after QBs that can throw w/ the threat of running. That’s been the same since Tajh Boyd. Whether listed as a DT or Pro, they must be able to toss the ball, and use their legs.

Man since Terrell Pryor, damn near all of OSU QBs have been identical. Lol

Bama has gone from multiple prostyle to multiple. We’ve seen their philosophy early on during McElwain - Nussmeier yrs, their QBs were strictly pro style. After Kiffin installed a WC offense that was passed down to Sark, an adjustment was made going after DT QBs. But Bama has always gone after big RBs that just run through you.

I agree w/ u regarding having different RBs w/ different skill sets....so what’s the different skill sets of all the guys we have?
 

AllAboutTheU

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Correct; but they go after QBs that fit their identity.

Clemson consistently go after QBs that can throw w/ the threat of running. That’s been the same since Tajh Boyd. Whether listed as a DT or Pro, they must be able to toss the ball, and use their legs.

Man since Terrell Pryor, damn near all of OSU QBs have been identical. Lol

Bama has gone from multiple prostyle to multiple. We’ve seen their philosophy early on during McElwain - Nussmeier yrs, their QBs were strictly pro style. After Kiffin installed a WC offense that was passed down to Sark, an adjustment was made going after DT QBs. But Bama has always gone after big RBs that just run through you.

I agree w/ u regarding having different RBs w/ different skill sets....so what’s the different skill sets of all the guys we have?
Kelly Bryant was an awful passer lol. Part of why he got bounced. Taisun P too. I agree that they seem to place a priority on guys being able to do something with their feet though.

JT Barrett to Cardale to Dwayne Haskins to Fields etc. Those are so different guys. If Kyle McCord wins the job this year like it seems then they’re back to pro style.

With Bama QBs they’re not going after DTs consistently. Mac Jones was the last guy and he can’t move.

Basically, just like RB you see teams with guys who have different strengths at the QB position. Especially when it’s hard to bring in elite guys year after year at QB since these kids want to player sooner than ever and are less likely to wait around.

As far as our backfield, I’m only judging Hickson based on the room he recruited. Chaney is a more well rounded back and Knighton more of a change of pace guy. Both Brown and Franklin are big guys to wear the defense down
 

OriginalCanesCanesCanes

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Kelly Bryant was an awful passer lol. Part of why he got bounced. Taisun P too. I agree that they seem to place a priority on guys being able to do something with their feet though.

JT Barrett to Cardale to Dwayne Haskins to Fields etc. Those are so different guys. If Kyle McCord wins the job this year like it seems then they’re back to pro style.

With Bama QBs they’re not going after DTs consistently. Mac Jones was the last guy and he can’t move.

Basically, just like RB you see teams with guys who have different strengths at the QB position. Especially when it’s hard to bring in elite guys year after year at QB since these kids want to player sooner than ever and are less likely to wait around.

As far as our backfield, I’m only judging Hickson based on the room he recruited. Chaney is a more well rounded back and Knighton more of a change of pace guy. Both Brown and Franklin are big guys to wear the defense down

Did Taisun bounce?
 

BigDikCane

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I told y'all we need a ninja that can tote the rock, and once he hits the endzone he can smoke the rock
 

Rellyrell

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Kelly Bryant was an awful passer lol. Part of why he got bounced. Taisun P too. I agree that they seem to place a priority on guys being able to do something with their feet though.

JT Barrett to Cardale to Dwayne Haskins to Fields etc. Those are so different guys. If Kyle McCord wins the job this year like it seems then they’re back to pro style.

With Bama QBs they’re not going after DTs consistently. Mac Jones was the last guy and he can’t move.

Basically, just like RB you see teams with guys who have different strengths at the QB position. Especially when it’s hard to bring in elite guys year after year at QB since these kids want to player sooner than ever and are less likely to wait around.

As far as our backfield, I’m only judging Hickson based on the room he recruited. Chaney is a more well rounded back and Knighton more of a change of pace guy. Both Brown and Franklin are big guys to wear the defense down

Lol; bro r u serious right now? Are u really going to use “one-offs” to make an argument? Dude, TUA was the QB of 2017, champ. Mac Jones was the 2nd QB just b/c. It was supposed to be Tua, THEN Young. They didn’t even recruit a QB til 2020. (What I mean by this is prioritize QB recruiting). Jones came out of no where b/c he put in the work.

In regards to Bryant, again Clemson didn’t put an emphasis on QB recruiting b/c they had Watson in the previous class. However, to say Bryant was a horrible passer is still accurate. He completed 66% of his passes, but he couldn’t push the ball downfield.

And no u did not just say the OSU guys were different!! Lol

At the end of the day, top teams know their identity, what they wanna run, and recruit the best guys to fit their systems. Imo, our identity is shoddy.
 

edge

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What I got out of it is that Kirby Smart is not developing all that talent he is paying for.
 

AllAboutTheU

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Lol; bro r u serious right now? Are u really going to use “one-offs” to make an argument? Dude, TUA was the QB of 2017, champ. Mac Jones was the 2nd QB just b/c. It was supposed to be Tua, THEN Young. They didn’t even recruit a QB til 2020. (What I mean by this is prioritize QB recruiting). Jones came out of no where b/c he put in the work.

In regards to Bryant, again Clemson didn’t put an emphasis on QB recruiting b/c they had Watson in the previous class. However, to say Bryant was a horrible passer is still accurate. He completed 66% of his passes, but he couldn’t push the ball downfield.

And no u did not just say the OSU guys were different!! Lol

At the end of the day, top teams know their identity, what they wanna run, and recruit the best guys to fit their systems. Imo, our identity is shoddy.
How are they “one offs”? They have different guys in QB room bruh. Whatever Mac Jones was he was recruited their and they were successful last year playing around his strengths. Even Milroe is a vastly different QB than Tua and Young if you’re now moving to who they “prioritize”.

If you think Haskins, Fields, Jones and now McCord are the same QB then idk what to say.

I think these schools look for traits in kids but at the end of the day a good OC is going to build around the strengths of the QB. Look at what Mullen’s identity had been before Trask was the QB. I’m not sure I agree that the identity is shoddy under Lashlee. He’s recruited here one full cycle, and the QB we brought in was a guy who is similar athletically to Buechele, another guy who had success under him. Next year Brown is the QB, and he’s obviously a different type of skill set who has been successful under Lashlee. I just don’t really agree that schools bring in QBs that all do the same thing.
 

Ethnicsands

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Saban knows exactly the types of recruits he's seeking from a physical standpoint. Alabama does not pursue players who fail to fit a specific size/speed metric even though they may prove quality players for other programs.

"They have a template, and it matches what most NFL teams are looking for,"
Reese’s Senior Bowl executive director and Crimson Tide radio analyst Phil Savage told Sporting News. "When they come out of the locker room on any given Saturday, you can see that all the DBs are of a certain height, all the defensive linemen are of a certain shape and the offensive linemen are big. It's not like you have one DB who is 5-7 and another who is 6-2.



That's just the first example that popped up. Kirby took Saban's philosophy to Georgia so you can assume it's similar.



Just look at the recruiting rankings. For years, Clemson had classes ranked in the 10-15 range because they surrounded their blue chip QB/WR/DL with low-rated "program guys." From 2010 to 2019, their average class ranking was 12th. They've been Top 5 the last two years with their best classes of all-time.

Why is this important? Here's how 247 computes those recruiting rankings:

To that end, we have turned to the NFL Draft as the measuring stick and answer key that best indicates, in a quantitative manner, the level of success and ability players showcased during their college careers.



The point of this exchange is that NFL talent matters a lot. The data make that abundantly clear.

Nobody has ever said NFL numbers are Miami's "only problem." That's a weak strawman. We have a bunch of areas to improve. This thread focuses on a specific problem--the lack of elite talent-- that is the primary problem separating us from the top programs right now.



Yes, the path for us is maximizing our existing talent with a fun style of football. This will allow us to recruit true difference-makers like Deshaun Watson, Christian Wilkins and Trevor Lawrence. That's how Clemson got to the next level. Last year was a step in the right direction.
Trying to recruit like saban given where amd what we are sure sounds like a fool’s errand to me. We get run through by UNC Like a gonzo porn scene, and we’re debating the lack of a couple top picks. A couple top picks would help. They don’t explain UNC. I’d mention FIU and La Tech but you’ll pin those on Enos.

Georgia has been trying and it hasn’t quite worked for them, despite the top classes, because they’re not as good evaluators, apparently.

Clemson has 2 top 5 classes and now they’ve changed everything about their recruiting approach? Isn’t it more likely they landed a few more top kids who fit, than they’re chasing all different kids?

You can focus on lsck of elite talent. It’s true. But don’t dismiss the elephant in the room, which is experience, depth and position group capabilities. When we have big roster holes in the roster, a really weak ‘middle class’ as you put it, and deficient experience, we get embarrassed whether or not we have a couple top 3 round picks. Top round picks are the icing on the cake. We need a cake. We have some flour, sugar and egg, but it ain’t mixed right or baked right.

Priorities:
- QB talent (hopefully improving, but the rush to declare before any live action has not worked in the past)
- Unit integrity - no gaping holes at OL, LB, CB or elsewhere.
- Maturity and experience in the middle of the roster. Quit playing ion Nelsons before they’re ready. Have 8 good OL, not just 4. Have capable LBs who can sub.
- Overall talent increased through better evaluations - top tier or not, will drive the whole roster and competitiveness

If we do these things without stumbling across a couple top picks, we’ll still be competitive with almost everyone, and will be able to recruit more top kids who will be your icing on a cake.

These discussions remind me of an old sociology flaw. Someone observed that the difference between middle class people and homeless people is the lack of a house by homeless people. So their prescription is get houses for homeless people and they’ll be just like middle class people. Of course, life doesn’t work that way. Middle class people aren’t middle class because they have a house. They have a house because they’re middle class.

I’ve been pointing to the lack of meaningful NFL players coming from Miami for years in our exchanges, so it’s ironic to see that not be a focus. It’s a symptom, not a cause.
 

Gooner#44

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Good programs/coaching staffs adapt to the elite player, not take a lesser player because he fits their "system"
 
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