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Off-Topic 61% of American paid no income taxes

SpikeUM

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And very few people with College degrees lost their jobs during the pandemic, while those with HS diplomas or less had double digit unemployment. But IIRC, the roles were reversed during the Great Recession.

This is really multiple issues being combined into one problem. People that dont bother to get even bother to get a high school degree or learn a trade get paid to stay home, and/or demand a higher minimum wage. Others that do go to school get useless degrees, such as basically any liberal arts major; and they rack up large student loans and then want them forgiven. We need to stop rewarding laziness, stupidity and poor decisions, there are no participation trophies in business or life.
 

Empirical Cane

We are what we repeatedly do.
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12,893
BTW, the stupidity of "taxing the rich" is that there are all types of loopholes for the uber rich to avoid paying taxes. At the state level, beyond moving to a lower/zero tax state, there are also special trusts you can set up. At the Federal level, you have various estate/tax planning techniques and can also become a P.R. resident.
Correct.
 

SpikeUM

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Added without comment


That has to be Bloomberg fake news, because why would residents be fleeing the worlds best city, one that has the worlds best services, subways, garbage collection etc. headed by the worlds best mayor? All at a very reasonable income tax rate, with rent controls in place. What are those idiot residents thinking?
 

JD08

Success is more than just a lack of failure
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That has to be Bloomberg fake news, because why would residents be fleeing the worlds best city, one that has the worlds best services, subways, garbage collection etc. headed by the worlds best mayor? All at a very reasonable income tax rate, with rent controls in place. What are those idiot residents thinking?
I worked off Clematis right after college. We had a police officer who would escort us from the office to the garage. My coworker got mugged after an evening on Clematis. New Yorkers should feel right at home.
 

SpikeUM

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I worked off Clematis right after college. We had a police officer who would escort us from the office to the garage. My coworker got mugged after an evening on Clematis. New Yorkers should feel right at home.

They have really cleaned up the area, but you dont move to South Florida for a lower crime rate.
 

wspcane

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3,699
I actually had to put more into my 401k this year so I could get into a lower tax bracket and not get bent over the barrel so bad.

I've worked through the whole pandemic as well.
I know with the pandemic and certain programs your eligibility is based off of your AGI. However, I want to clear up one common misconception if that is not the case. When you move up a tax bracket, it is not that all of your income is suddenly taxed at the higher rate, it is that income in the next bracket is taxed at that rate. As a super simple example, lets say the tax brackets are $0-$50,000 are taxed at 10%, $50,001-$100,000 are taxed at 20%, and anything above that is taxed at 30%. Now let's say you make $120,000. Your tax due is not $36,000. Your tax due would be $5,000 + $10,000 + $6,000, for a total of $21,000.

Having said that, if you are able to, you should 100% be doing the maximum in your 401k that you can budget for (up to the $19,500 limit), and at a minimum any employee match. If able, you should also try to do the $6,000 IRA contribution. The power of time and compound growth is powerful, and your future self will thank you.
 
Last edited:

SpikeUM

Senior
Joined
Nov 3, 2011
Messages
6,088
I know with the pandemic and certain programs your eligibility is based off of your AGI. However, I want to clear up one common misconception if that is not the case. When you move up a tax bracket, it is not that all of your income is suddenly taxed at the higher rate, it is that income in the next bracket is taxed at that rate. As a super simple example, lets say the tax brackets are $0-$50,000 are taxed at 10%, $50,001-$100,000 are taxed at 20%, and anything above that is taxed at 30%. Now let's say you make $120,000. Your tax due is not $36,000. Your tax due would be $5,000 + $10,000 + $6,000, for a total of $21,000.

Having said that, if you are able to, you should 100% be doing the maximum in your 401k that you can budget for (up to the $19,500 limit), and at a minimum any employee match. If able, you should also try to do the $6,000 IRA contribution. The power of time and compound growth is powerful, and your future self will thank you.

@wspcane has graduated from poster to legit poster!!! :)
 

TheOriginalCane

All American
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Dec 22, 2011
Messages
15,574
And Ford and GM sent lower end blue collar jobs away. How'd that end? The middle class is what's necessary for a city to thrive.


Yeah, but this is a MUCH more complex issue than "sending lower end blue collar jobs away". It includes a multi-decade assault on "labor" and labor unions, which were partially/largely responsible for building and protecting "middle class jobs" in many cities across this country, not just Detroit.

Look, I'd like to make as much money as possible, and pay as little as possible for the things I purchase, but when there wasn't a highly concerted corporate/p-analytical/class-warfare attack on labor unions, we actually DID have middle class jobs. While I understand the popular "blame the CEOs" approach to creating an overly-simplistic explanation of how millions of jobs moved from American cities to Asian countries, we should not act as if there weren't multiple factors at play. It's not like some CEO woke up one day and said "let's move a million jobs to Asia".

Having said that, we still have an interesting dilemma in American cities. Yes, we have certain jobs that (in spite of Asian industrialization) that are still leaders in the world, such as doctors, lawyers, engineers, accounting/finance, and IT (I'm not saying we are #1 in each area, jut that we still have a significant chunk of the world jobs and salaries in these fields). But then there is a big drop-off, and due to the 50-year-trend of moving to a (mostly) 24-hour economy, we now have sooooo many jobs that involve overnight shifts at stores, restaurants, and gas/convenience stores. These are no longer the types of jobs that "high school kids" can fill, and that (previously) allowed us to justify "minimum wage" for these jobs.

And, hell, we can see it playing out in so many ripples. We had a ton of 18-wheel truckers who were older but were instrumental in holding our distribution network together, and when a bunch of them decided to retire post-COVID instead of "going back to work", we had massive logistical issues. Florida is pushing a bill that will let drivers AS YOUNG AS 18 get licenses allowing them to drive gas trucks and other 18-wheel trucks. And an issue like that has NOTHING to do with "liberal arts degrees" or "sending jobs to Asia". Or, as Spike likes to point out, look at what is happening in the restaurant industry. This isn't "robots took our jobs" or anything else, it's just people who used to work in the restaurant industry who have realized (a) the pay sucks, (b) the hours suck, (c) the treatment from management sucks, and (d) there are plenty of other jobs that can improve on (a), (b), and (c).

We need more affordable housing in cities, because a ton of the old "I work down at the Ford factory" jobs have turned into "I'm a midnight-to-eight stocker down at the Wal-Mart" jobs. Lots of people have jobs, but a lot of the jobs have shifted from "middle-class" supervisory jobs to "lower-class" physical labor jobs. And all the "good old days" hand-wringing is not going to bring the old jobs back. We need better transportation. We need better access to childcare. We need to take the provision of healthcare off of our corporations, like 100 other nations we compete with already do.

But, yeah, people are going to keep yapping p-analytical catchphrases and conflating "socialism" with "communism".

There is a lot we can do to build a better country and a better society, one that allows the amazing pursuit of infinite job and economic opportunities with the chance to enjoy freedom and an American lifestyle that doesn't consign huge numbers of otherwise hard-working people to lives of poverty and struggle.

I realize that many Americans are not properly trained or conditioned to "share" the great bounty that we enjoy in this country, but if we can figure out how to provide more benefits and opportunity to more people, without targeting every freaking tax break to wealthy individuals and large corporations, we will absolutely be able to "bring back the middle class".

We have to do more than point the finger at CEOs. We need to create the right atmosphere in this country for EVERYONE to want to keep jobs in America and educate all of our people with the right skills to compete in the global market.
 

TheOriginalCane

All American
Joined
Dec 22, 2011
Messages
15,574
I get that you don't want to acknowledge that there is a net loss of people from NYC, but NY isn't losing a congressional district because of robust growth.


I would like to point out that "losing a congressional district" can still take place when you have a NET GAIN in your population. The insanity of "435 people representing an ever-increasing population" produces some counter-intuitive results.

The populations of both NYS and NYC generally increase every decade, but sometimes other states have larger percentage population increases, resulting in a reallocation of Congressional seats. And don't even get me started on the ridiculous "Congressional-district-population" disparities between heavily populated states and, say, Wyoming.



NYS population growth:

1631736712185.png



NYC population growth:

1631736640663.png
 

JD08

Success is more than just a lack of failure
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Messages
19,114
Yeah, but this is a MUCH more complex issue than "sending lower end blue collar jobs away". It includes a multi-decade assault on "labor" and labor unions, which were partially/largely responsible for building and protecting "middle class jobs" in many cities across this country, not just Detroit.

Look, I'd like to make as much money as possible, and pay as little as possible for the things I purchase, but when there wasn't a highly concerted corporate/p-analytical/class-warfare attack on labor unions, we actually DID have middle class jobs. While I understand the popular "blame the CEOs" approach to creating an overly-simplistic explanation of how millions of jobs moved from American cities to Asian countries, we should not act as if there weren't multiple factors at play. It's not like some CEO woke up one day and said "let's move a million jobs to Asia".

Having said that, we still have an interesting dilemma in American cities. Yes, we have certain jobs that (in spite of Asian industrialization) that are still leaders in the world, such as doctors, lawyers, engineers, accounting/finance, and IT (I'm not saying we are #1 in each area, jut that we still have a significant chunk of the world jobs and salaries in these fields). But then there is a big drop-off, and due to the 50-year-trend of moving to a (mostly) 24-hour economy, we now have sooooo many jobs that involve overnight shifts at stores, restaurants, and gas/convenience stores. These are no longer the types of jobs that "high school kids" can fill, and that (previously) allowed us to justify "minimum wage" for these jobs.

And, hell, we can see it playing out in so many ripples. We had a ton of 18-wheel truckers who were older but were instrumental in holding our distribution network together, and when a bunch of them decided to retire post-COVID instead of "going back to work", we had massive logistical issues. Florida is pushing a bill that will let drivers AS YOUNG AS 18 get licenses allowing them to drive gas trucks and other 18-wheel trucks. And an issue like that has NOTHING to do with "liberal arts degrees" or "sending jobs to Asia". Or, as Spike likes to point out, look at what is happening in the restaurant industry. This isn't "robots took our jobs" or anything else, it's just people who used to work in the restaurant industry who have realized (a) the pay sucks, (b) the hours suck, (c) the treatment from management sucks, and (d) there are plenty of other jobs that can improve on (a), (b), and (c).

We need more affordable housing in cities, because a ton of the old "I work down at the Ford factory" jobs have turned into "I'm a midnight-to-eight stocker down at the Wal-Mart" jobs. Lots of people have jobs, but a lot of the jobs have shifted from "middle-class" supervisory jobs to "lower-class" physical labor jobs. And all the "good old days" hand-wringing is not going to bring the old jobs back. We need better transportation. We need better access to childcare. We need to take the provision of healthcare off of our corporations, like 100 other nations we compete with already do.

But, yeah, people are going to keep yapping p-analytical catchphrases and conflating "socialism" with "communism".

There is a lot we can do to build a better country and a better society, one that allows the amazing pursuit of infinite job and economic opportunities with the chance to enjoy freedom and an American lifestyle that doesn't consign huge numbers of otherwise hard-working people to lives of poverty and struggle.

I realize that many Americans are not properly trained or conditioned to "share" the great bounty that we enjoy in this country, but if we can figure out how to provide more benefits and opportunity to more people, without targeting every freaking tax break to wealthy individuals and large corporations, we will absolutely be able to "bring back the middle class".

We have to do more than point the finger at CEOs. We need to create the right atmosphere in this country for EVERYONE to want to keep jobs in America and educate all of our people with the right skills to compete in the global market.
Unions have their own share of blame in this along with management. Nobody is willing to spend an excess amount of money when an acceptable lower cost option is available. Union tactics during negotiations always left a bad taste in management's mouth. My father worked in labor management for most of his career for a defense contractor. Some of the stories of the negotiations back in the sixties were disturbing. From the union side, would you be happy with a company that would replace you when you went on strike? From the management side, would you want to give anything to people who would use mirrors to blind people leaving the factory and who throw light bulbs filled with paint at their cars? Eastern Airlines is an example of the end game of that mistrust.

Other than that rant, Mike Rowe is 100% correct that we've emphasized a college education at the expense of the trades and blue collar work. But is the solution to simply pay more money? Sure that will help lure some, but if the incentive is there to not work, people will always choose that door. And then when that happens, we'll see more kiosks like McDonald's and blame automation. In the end is automation the cause of unemployment or the result of it?

I've long said that universal basic income is a future necessity. The question is how to keep those idle hands out of trouble and encourage enough people to do comparatively menial work.
 

JD08

Success is more than just a lack of failure
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Joined
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Messages
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I would like to point out that "losing a congressional district" can still take place when you have a NET GAIN in your population. The insanity of "435 people representing an ever-increasing population" produces some counter-intuitive results.

The populations of both NYS and NYC generally increase every decade, but sometimes other states have larger percentage population increases, resulting in a reallocation of Congressional seats. And don't even get me started on the ridiculous "Congressional-district-population" disparities between heavily populated states and, say, Wyoming.



NYS population growth:

View attachment 154648


NYC population growth:

View attachment 154647
Ok, so it's growing at a slower rate than other states. We've added over a million people this year through immigration, both legal and illegal. Maybe they should be encouraged to move to NY.
 

TheOriginalCane

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Dec 22, 2011
Messages
15,574
Did you think I wasn't going to click your link? For one. As I said, the 7 major felonies total is down. 2nd, Shootings aren't listed in your link.

Look, we all knew that the right-wing "everything is better in the rural areas" kooks were eventually going to weigh in.

First, they don't want to give large cities, such as NYC, any credit for the REDUCTION in the crime rates over the preceding decades (and let's not pretend that just one mayor contributed to those lower crime rates).

Second, they don't want to acknowledge that the last two years have been challenging, due to COVID, whether you analyze the loss of income among those least-prepared to deal with a reduction in income to the cutbacks in municipal services.

Third, there is no acknowledgement that NYC is not the only, and not the worst, city to experience such problems. But, yeah, we always know that NYC and Chicago are going to be the right-wing whipping boys for everything that is bad in the world, or any one/two year aberrational bump in the crime rates.

Meanwhile, NYC has had hundreds of years of "crime", sometimes with higher rates, sometimes with lower rates. Yet I've already supplied centuries of NYC population growth data, and somehow, SOMEHOW, the people of NYC seem to survive the slings and arrows of "crime rate" without screaming and setting their hair on fire and moving to Florida.

There are pros and cons to living in big cities such as NYC, and we have seen hundreds of years of population growth in such cities, regardless of any short-term and/or trendy changes in p-analytical trends, tax rates, crime rates, or general misery index. Covid has caused many people to rethink "the daily commute" in cities across this country.

But, yeah, some people are going to obsess about "shootings".
 
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